2009 Turbo Lag and Handling Issues
06-22-2012, 12:07 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
A relaunch would have been bad press to say the least. So all was done in the old Porsche tradition of 'continued improvement'. Yes, much like the first 996 turbo.
If you feel like it just have a look at the PET file of the 997 turbo and see for yourself how many parts got changed from '07 to '08. And again for '09.
The attention to detail is exemplary at Porsche. Just one example. Tire pressure monitoring system changed in '08 for no obvious reason. '08 tire sensors do not work on '07 cars. And this is only one small example.
Electronics have been even updated within model years at Porsche. Can't say for sure if this was the case with 997-1 turbo but could be.
Also note that the PET file does not show all changes by numbers, if parts can be interchanged the part number does not change even if the part itself is new and improved. I speak from personal expierence on my former 993
If you feel like it just have a look at the PET file of the 997 turbo and see for yourself how many parts got changed from '07 to '08. And again for '09.
The attention to detail is exemplary at Porsche. Just one example. Tire pressure monitoring system changed in '08 for no obvious reason. '08 tire sensors do not work on '07 cars. And this is only one small example.
Electronics have been even updated within model years at Porsche. Can't say for sure if this was the case with 997-1 turbo but could be.
Also note that the PET file does not show all changes by numbers, if parts can be interchanged the part number does not change even if the part itself is new and improved. I speak from personal expierence on my former 993
When we talk about "failings" at Excellence, they're almost always niggles. Unless we're talking about head studs, valve guides, IMS.... But, when it comes to the driving, our criticisms are almost always niggles, and only uncovered from a Porsche viewpoint against Porsche's best efforts in its other products, past and present (as well as some of the best "other" cars). It makes for a different perspective on the cars, probably somewhere along the continuum between owner forums (model-centric) and big U.S. car magazines (very general).
06-22-2012, 12:14 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
We have very similar preferences.
06-22-2012, 12:33 PM
#48
Three Wheelin'
A 2007 turbo used as a road car is close to perfect. It really is. But keep it on the road and use it for its intended purpose. Or modify and have maybe the best of both worlds.
06-22-2012, 12:35 PM
#49
Burning Brakes
It was Doc GTO's (Nick?), but if your car looks like that, then I'm sure I'd like it.
Nick's Turbo reminds me of a car at Laguna Seca in the paddock for the ALMS race that stopped me cold. 997-1, Atlas Gray (I think) with all-red taillights, no badging in the rear, and lowered a bit. Forget the wheels now, but they were very right and the car was just so elegant and purposeful. Reminded me how good the early 997s can look. But then, I've always been a sucker for dark gray and dark green cars...
pete
Nick's Turbo reminds me of a car at Laguna Seca in the paddock for the ALMS race that stopped me cold. 997-1, Atlas Gray (I think) with all-red taillights, no badging in the rear, and lowered a bit. Forget the wheels now, but they were very right and the car was just so elegant and purposeful. Reminded me how good the early 997s can look. But then, I've always been a sucker for dark gray and dark green cars...
pete
She's Atlas grey over stone full leather and carbon.
06-22-2012, 01:28 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
I prefer non tinted windows and factory lighting (I feel the all-reds look great on certain colors, and Atlas in particular), but there I go again, being a picky bast---.
In the small pic, I couldn't tell what taillights you had. Now I see they're the aftermarket LEDs, which do look good to me, too. And anyway, my personal taste is irrelevant. It's your car — but it's a reminder that when a car is really, really right, it crosses boundaries of one's individual taste. I love stuff cars and motorcycles like that...whether it's a nailed Datsun 510 or too-cool Mustang (anyone see the one on bringatrailer.com today?) or a ridiculous customized Harley. I normally wouldn't be all that interested, but all of a sudden I can't stop looking...and I can't forget "that one."Speaking which, I had better close this window and stop looking at your car...I need to get back to work. But: Bravo...very, very well-done 997 Turbo.
06-22-2012, 03:59 PM
#52
Burning Brakes
Yep, that car just has "the look." Often attempted, rarely achieved. Color, wheels, stance...it looks great!
I prefer non tinted windows and factory lighting (I feel the all-reds look great on certain colors, and Atlas in particular), but there I go again, being a picky bast---. In the small pic, I couldn't tell what taillights you had. Now I see they're the aftermarket LEDs, which do look good to me, too. And anyway, my personal taste is irrelevant. It's your car — but it's a reminder that when a car is really, really right, it crosses boundaries of one's individual taste. I love stuff cars and motorcycles like that...whether it's a nailed Datsun 510 or too-cool Mustang (anyone see the one on bringatrailer.com today?) or a ridiculous customized Harley. I normally wouldn't be all that interested, but all of a sudden I can't stop looking...and I can't forget "that one."
Speaking which, I had better close this window and stop looking at your car...I need to get back to work. But: Bravo...very, very well-done 997 Turbo.
I prefer non tinted windows and factory lighting (I feel the all-reds look great on certain colors, and Atlas in particular), but there I go again, being a picky bast---.
In the small pic, I couldn't tell what taillights you had. Now I see they're the aftermarket LEDs, which do look good to me, too. And anyway, my personal taste is irrelevant. It's your car — but it's a reminder that when a car is really, really right, it crosses boundaries of one's individual taste. I love stuff cars and motorcycles like that...whether it's a nailed Datsun 510 or too-cool Mustang (anyone see the one on bringatrailer.com today?) or a ridiculous customized Harley. I normally wouldn't be all that interested, but all of a sudden I can't stop looking...and I can't forget "that one."Speaking which, I had better close this window and stop looking at your car...I need to get back to work. But: Bravo...very, very well-done 997 Turbo.
06-22-2012, 08:18 PM
#53
I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to this thread which is one of the most informative and entertaining that I have ever had the pleasure of reading on Rennist. As far as Pete Stout is concerned, he's one of the primary reasons that I have subscribed to Excellence magazine for the past six years. He is not only extremely knowledgeable on all things Porsche, but he expresses his views in a non-condescending manner.
06-23-2012, 12:06 AM
#54
06-23-2012, 12:10 AM
#55
A strong pronouncement without much basis.
I've got no problem with people — especially owners — disagreeing with my view. That's what makes the world interesting! But let's stick to our views and a healthy discourse, rather than attacking the credibility of a source you don't seem to know much about based on nothing more than one person's read of a nebulous story that isn't even quoted properly or in context.
I've got no problem with people — especially owners — disagreeing with my view. That's what makes the world interesting! But let's stick to our views and a healthy discourse, rather than attacking the credibility of a source you don't seem to know much about based on nothing more than one person's read of a nebulous story that isn't even quoted properly or in context.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but so far as the majority of 997tt.1 owners go, many who have previously owned 996tt's, your opinion on the subject matter is one of extreme minority. Additionally, the volume of reviews and youtube clips which are readily available, all which contradict your opinion serve as further evidence the 997tt car is a substantial improvement over any 996tt car.
These people noticed "dramatic improvements over the 996tt: Note second and last paragraphs.
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_sh...che_911_turbo/
Heres another review of the (your claimed) flawed 997.1 turbo:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...o/viewall.html
And another….note the specific mention of lag…and the handling..
Fifth Gear - Porsche 997 Turbo review presented by TEAMSPEED …
And heres one from Clarkson the infamous Porsche hater. Note his enthusiasm about the terrible handling and woeful turbo lag...
I could go on and on adding further links to articles, youtube clips etc but the point i am making here is you are on your own with your lag and handling opinion. And "some friend" saying his 997tt had more lag than his 996tt is really taking it a bit far imo, as is establishing credibility based upon your experience driving many different model Porsches over your tenure to justify your claim. Unless you have driven all these cars back to back on the same day under the same conditions it is unrealistic to form any concrete conclusion to which handles better or exhibits more lag than the other. Your "friend" must also be a very unique person to form his conclusion.
I evidently struck a nerve with my remark directed toward you (as evidenced by your own veiled "barbed" remarks toward me and the lengthy justifications) however, i am evidently not alone in questioning the credibility of your review. My post was also hardly an "attack"....more so a justifiable question based on my daily experience driving my own car.
Your opinion on the matter, which you have admirably endeavoured to support with your background experience unfortunately does not qualify your opinion as being worthy as "the last word" on this subject (of turbo lag and handling of the 997tt.1)... in fact far from it given the majority opinions of both reviewers and numerous owners, none of which support your findings. Therefore, Rennlist members and owners of the 997tt.1 questioning your judgement/opinion was justified, as were my own remarks.
As a 997tt.1 owner for the past 4 years with now 20K kms seat time, i have found exactly as other owners have also expressed, the 997tt.1 when driven correctly exhibits zero to little turbo lag. Lag can be experienced if caught out in a higher gear at low rpm....but that is much the same as any turbo car. VTG just happens to do a better job of recovering quicker. And, the fact there are so many reviews and clips out there that contradict your claim has left you somewhat on your own, out on the end of a very thin branch (imho) if you will. But in saying that i accept everyone is entitled to an opinion.
It is alway understandable that any predecessor will be criticised against its successor however, that doesn't mean the older car was any more flawed than what the newer car will be also found against its successor when it is released and compared/reviewed. Your story of "the Porsche engineer" confirms this. I wonder what he will say to you next time about the 997.2tts when the 991TTs becomes available for your testing
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Last edited by speed21; 06-23-2012 at 05:22 AM.
06-25-2012, 06:29 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
I can't agree that you're qualified simply because you own a 997 Turbo. Owners have familiarity working in their favor—but plenty of people own these cars but can't drive them well and/or have a limited perspective. And, being human, an owner may be more likely to exhibit bias.
You did far more than call the magazine out; you stated its credibility was a thing of the past. Publicly discrediting another business in the Porsche community in sweeping terms would probably bring a similar response. At least.
LOL! I'm very okay with being in the minority, just do a RL search on my take on the too-jiggly 997-1 GT3! I just try to learn what I can, then call it as I see/experience it. I feel this approach has worked pretty well so far, even if it doesn't always win friends. As to the sources you mention, most outlets test new cars one of two ways:
1) At a new-car intro, sharing a press car on a recommended route for 2-6 hours. The outlets you mention have multi-member staffs, so trips are handled round robin. Upside: Tester may have broad experience. Downside: He or she may have limited or no experience with the car's predecessor. Skill levels differ wildly.
2) During a week-long press car loan. Staffers often vie for one night with the car. Of course, they may end up on a longer test/drive with it. Or not.
I noted all the cars I've tested for no other reason than to establish credibility in light of your potentially damaging statement. As to the specific outlets you mention, there are certain things about each that I value greatly, but that doesn't mean they influence my estimation. I hear you on Clarkson (gasp!) liking a Porsche, but if you are turning to Clarkson for objectivity rather than (brilliant!) entertainment, I'm worried that you have missed the point of that show. He's at least as much a character as a car reviewer, and he does it very well indeed. Thanks for the clip, though—I enjoyed it!
Simply not true. I am hesitant, however, to drag others' names into an argument that's quickly turning into a urinal. Sorry, but I don't even know who you are, "speed21."
A ridiculous statement.
No need for it to be the last word here, and never said so.
The first sentence makes my head hurt, but pretty sure my story doesn't confirm your point. With "the Porsche engineer," as with the "Porsche collector" I am employing both understatement as well as discretion. But rest assured, this is no "mere" Porsche engineer.
pete
You did far more than call the magazine out; you stated its credibility was a thing of the past. Publicly discrediting another business in the Porsche community in sweeping terms would probably bring a similar response. At least.
1) At a new-car intro, sharing a press car on a recommended route for 2-6 hours. The outlets you mention have multi-member staffs, so trips are handled round robin. Upside: Tester may have broad experience. Downside: He or she may have limited or no experience with the car's predecessor. Skill levels differ wildly.
2) During a week-long press car loan. Staffers often vie for one night with the car. Of course, they may end up on a longer test/drive with it. Or not.
I noted all the cars I've tested for no other reason than to establish credibility in light of your potentially damaging statement. As to the specific outlets you mention, there are certain things about each that I value greatly, but that doesn't mean they influence my estimation. I hear you on Clarkson (gasp!) liking a Porsche, but if you are turning to Clarkson for objectivity rather than (brilliant!) entertainment, I'm worried that you have missed the point of that show. He's at least as much a character as a car reviewer, and he does it very well indeed. Thanks for the clip, though—I enjoyed it!
Simply not true. I am hesitant, however, to drag others' names into an argument that's quickly turning into a urinal. Sorry, but I don't even know who you are, "speed21."
It is alway understandable that any predecessor will be criticised against its successor however, that doesn't mean the older car was any more flawed than what the newer car will be also found against its successor when it is released and compared/reviewed. Your story of "the Porsche engineer" confirms this.
pete
06-25-2012, 06:31 PM
#58
Intermediate
Coilovers, quality exhaust and a good flash turn these cars into something inexplicable. You really have to drive and see them in person. No noticeable lag unless you are climbing a hill at 1,500 rpms in higher gear.
06-26-2012, 03:14 AM
#59
I can't agree that you're qualified simply because you own a 997 Turbo. Owners have familiarity working in their favor—but plenty of people own these cars but can't drive them well and/or have a limited perspective. And, being human, an owner may be more likely to exhibit bias.
With all due respect to your driving skills I've done enough street and track time in these cars to know enough about their handling charactoristics. And to suggest that perhaps because i own one i am emotionally attached therefore unable to call the truth on the matter is ridiculous. (urinal...lol) I know lag when i feel it, and i've also driven enough turbo cars over my time to know what is a laggy turbo car. And the 997tt is not a laggy car at all.
I have no idea what conditions you were experiencing this "lag" hence my logical suggestion you must have been in too high a gear at too low an RPM. Perhaps enlighten all of us here exaxctly what gear you were in and how many rpms you had underfoot when all this lag happened....then I may be able to get my head around what you may be referring to. But eitherway, to say a 997tt has more lag than a 996tt is something i've never heard anyone brave enough to come out with lol. I'm pretty sure there is way more to that story. Was his 996tt tuned or modded? Was the 997tt running on low grade pump gas?....something wrong with it?
You did far more than call the magazine out; you stated its credibility was a thing of the past. Publicly discrediting another business in the Porsche community in sweeping terms would probably bring a similar response. At least.
LOL! I'm very okay with being in the minority,
As to the sources you mention, most outlets test new cars one of two ways:
1) At a new-car intro, sharing a press car on a recommended route for 2-6 hours. The outlets you mention have multi-member staffs, so trips are handled round robin. Upside: Tester may have broad experience. Downside: He or she may have limited or no experience with the car's predecessor. Skill levels differ wildly.
2) During a week-long press car loan. Staffers often vie for one night with the car. Of course, they may end up on a longer test/drive with it. Or not.
1) At a new-car intro, sharing a press car on a recommended route for 2-6 hours. The outlets you mention have multi-member staffs, so trips are handled round robin. Upside: Tester may have broad experience. Downside: He or she may have limited or no experience with the car's predecessor. Skill levels differ wildly.
2) During a week-long press car loan. Staffers often vie for one night with the car. Of course, they may end up on a longer test/drive with it. Or not.
because they came up with a different take than yourself.
I noted all the cars I've tested for no other reason than to establish credibility in light of your potentially damaging statement. As to the specific outlets you mention, there are certain things about each that I value greatly, but that doesn't mean they influence my estimation.
I hear you on Clarkson (gasp!) liking a Porsche, but if you are turning to Clarkson for objectivity rather than (brilliant!) entertainment, I'm worried that you have missed the point of that show. He's at least as much a character as a car reviewer, and he does it very well indeed. Thanks for the clip, though—I enjoyed it!
. Let's face it. If anyone was going to put the boot in on the car he would have.....yet he didn't. In fact, he said things that would normally never be uttered from his lips about any Porsche. So, please take me out of the equation as this "inexperienced emotionally charged 997tt.1 owner standing up for his beloved automobile" and use Clarksons driving experience and his independant wisdom as a globally recognised and established motoring afficionado to make a call most would sit up and pay attention to. Particularly when he is saying nice things about a Porsche.
Simply not true. I am hesitant, however, to drag others' names into an argument that's quickly turning into a urinal.
Exactly who and what are you talking about? You are essentially saying it's now turning into a "urinal" because you are the odd man out....and under justifiable scrutiny. C'mon. If anyone has turned it into a urinal it is yourself.
Sorry, but I don't even know who you are, "speed21."
A ridiculous statement.
No need for it to be the last word here, and never said so.
The first sentence makes my head hurt, but pretty sure my story doesn't confirm your point. With "the Porsche engineer," as with the "Porsche collector" I am employing both understatement as well as discretion. But rest assured, this is no "mere" Porsche engineer.
[/QUOTE]speed21
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Last edited by speed21; 06-26-2012 at 03:56 AM.
06-26-2012, 03:22 AM
#60