GTR arrives Friday at dealer.
08-07-2008 | 08:24 PM
#61
Banned
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: I'm not sell'n anythang... much..
Prime example of Blind devotion above...
Porsche only has 1 rear engined model so they must not be too stuck on the "Legacy."
Porsche's top model is what? Mid-Engined. Their fastest race cars where what? Mid-Engined.
One of the cool things about working for PCNA was that they highly encouraged their employee's to learn the history of the company. Who designed the 911, 908, & 917 (probably the best race car Porsche ever made)? It wasn't Dr. Porsche, it was his nephew Ferdinand Piech, who left Porsche to work for Audi...why? Because in 1972 they decided that no Porsche family member would be allowed to have a management role in the company. So the decision to stick with the rear engine layout wasn't Ferry's. What other rear engined cars did Piech design? None... The Audi 80 and 100 and Quattro, front engined. And although he didn't design it, as CEO of VW he insisted that the Bugatti Veyron be a mid-engined W16. In the 80's Porsche was trying to replace the 911 as their flagship model; they came out with the 928. 911 guys never would accept it. So Porsche thought that if they gave it better performance then it might sway their decisions to accept it. So they kept upping the performance of the 928 from model year to model year in hopes that the 911 guy would convert... he would not and so they kept the 911. Compare a last year 928 GTS with a 911 of the same year and you'll see that the 928 was their nicest, fastest, and most expensive model. So they HAVE tried in the past to replace the 911 but their clientèle wouldn't go for it.
I just don't understand car guys that are so stuck on one brand that they refuse to see any other car as a "good" car. They are so blindly devoted that they even make up excuses and theories as to how any other brand's car that may perform better can do so... i.e. "ringer" cars, etc.
Why did I choose a Porsche? For one, as a kid I can remember my dad watching the movie "Le Mans" and thinking the Gulf cars where cool. Then when I got a little older the fastest production car for the day was a Porsche RUF 930 and I was intrigued that a car that didn't have the bizarre cool looks like the Countach was the fastest car. Then the CTR2 came out some years later and laid waste to everything; I was hooked. So after college I went to work for Porsche Cars North America. My office was attached to the West Coast Distribution Center where the cars where brought to get prepped and inspected before being delivered to the dealers. It was amazing to see the care that they put into their product and it was cool to see so many employees that had true pride in the company. Quite a few German's transplanted to the US to work for Porsche here and they were a plethora of knowledge having worked for the company since it's early days. They were in love with the company too, it had become like their family. So I was impressed with the company after that experience. Plus I like that a Porsche is instantly identifiable. It can't be mistaken for any other car on the road, you see one and you instantly know that it's a Porsche. I also like that they have slowly altered it's shape over the years instead of creating an entirely new look like most companies do; that helps with it's timeless design and resale value. And it's a drivers car... you just don't jump in a 911 and effortlessly drive the thing fast through corners. You have to learn the car and it's dynamics, which is fun. Is it the easiest car to drive fast? No...Is it the most confidence inspiring? No... It takes faith and finesse to drive it proper fast. Is it better than the GT-R? Define better...
Porsche only has 1 rear engined model so they must not be too stuck on the "Legacy."
Porsche's top model is what? Mid-Engined. Their fastest race cars where what? Mid-Engined.
One of the cool things about working for PCNA was that they highly encouraged their employee's to learn the history of the company. Who designed the 911, 908, & 917 (probably the best race car Porsche ever made)? It wasn't Dr. Porsche, it was his nephew Ferdinand Piech, who left Porsche to work for Audi...why? Because in 1972 they decided that no Porsche family member would be allowed to have a management role in the company. So the decision to stick with the rear engine layout wasn't Ferry's. What other rear engined cars did Piech design? None... The Audi 80 and 100 and Quattro, front engined. And although he didn't design it, as CEO of VW he insisted that the Bugatti Veyron be a mid-engined W16. In the 80's Porsche was trying to replace the 911 as their flagship model; they came out with the 928. 911 guys never would accept it. So Porsche thought that if they gave it better performance then it might sway their decisions to accept it. So they kept upping the performance of the 928 from model year to model year in hopes that the 911 guy would convert... he would not and so they kept the 911. Compare a last year 928 GTS with a 911 of the same year and you'll see that the 928 was their nicest, fastest, and most expensive model. So they HAVE tried in the past to replace the 911 but their clientèle wouldn't go for it.
I just don't understand car guys that are so stuck on one brand that they refuse to see any other car as a "good" car. They are so blindly devoted that they even make up excuses and theories as to how any other brand's car that may perform better can do so... i.e. "ringer" cars, etc.
Why did I choose a Porsche? For one, as a kid I can remember my dad watching the movie "Le Mans" and thinking the Gulf cars where cool. Then when I got a little older the fastest production car for the day was a Porsche RUF 930 and I was intrigued that a car that didn't have the bizarre cool looks like the Countach was the fastest car. Then the CTR2 came out some years later and laid waste to everything; I was hooked. So after college I went to work for Porsche Cars North America. My office was attached to the West Coast Distribution Center where the cars where brought to get prepped and inspected before being delivered to the dealers. It was amazing to see the care that they put into their product and it was cool to see so many employees that had true pride in the company. Quite a few German's transplanted to the US to work for Porsche here and they were a plethora of knowledge having worked for the company since it's early days. They were in love with the company too, it had become like their family. So I was impressed with the company after that experience. Plus I like that a Porsche is instantly identifiable. It can't be mistaken for any other car on the road, you see one and you instantly know that it's a Porsche. I also like that they have slowly altered it's shape over the years instead of creating an entirely new look like most companies do; that helps with it's timeless design and resale value. And it's a drivers car... you just don't jump in a 911 and effortlessly drive the thing fast through corners. You have to learn the car and it's dynamics, which is fun. Is it the easiest car to drive fast? No...Is it the most confidence inspiring? No... It takes faith and finesse to drive it proper fast. Is it better than the GT-R? Define better...
You're very passionate. That's something that, unfortunately- isn't very common about the sport.
But fair play, you don't need to have as much knowledge about the brand to adore or love it.
Infact, it's safe to say that you love the Porsche 911 the way most of us do, for the reasons you listed.
That having been said, I've recently driven a Ferrari F430 with a manual, Gallardo Spyder E Gear.......and a new M3 Coupe.
I'll argue with anyone that the new 997 911 is by far, EASIER to drive and drive fast then any of those cars. -That also goes for the Boxster/Cayman as well.
Exceptionally well balanced, user friendly and confidence inspiring.
08-08-2008 | 02:52 AM
#62
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
From: Reno, NV
08-09-2008 | 03:47 AM
#65
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
From: Houston TX
Dustin,
You make some good points. But I think what you may be missing on the "ringer car" point is the physics. More specifically, Nissan and all the rags stated that the GTR was both heavier and less powerful than the turbo, yet it was substantially quicker. This is what a lot of folks here and other forums are tweaked about, especially those who have been around a few race tracks. So the argument is that the facts don't add up. To be running the times that the GTR did, it had to be making substantially more power than claimed, hence the term "ringer".
But hey, Nissan wouldn't be the first to sell a car with under-rated power specs. They and anybody else can sell what ever they want to as long as it's road legal. At any rate, the competition is definitely ramping up....but competition is good. I hope it makes porsche better, and very quickly so. Porsche still has a racing heritage that most if not all are envious of. I don't see Porsche letting up on continuing the legacy any time soon.
BTW, I would love to work for PCNA. Last time I looked at positions I was interested in, they all required speaking German. Oh well, maybe in my next life.
You make some good points. But I think what you may be missing on the "ringer car" point is the physics. More specifically, Nissan and all the rags stated that the GTR was both heavier and less powerful than the turbo, yet it was substantially quicker. This is what a lot of folks here and other forums are tweaked about, especially those who have been around a few race tracks. So the argument is that the facts don't add up. To be running the times that the GTR did, it had to be making substantially more power than claimed, hence the term "ringer".
But hey, Nissan wouldn't be the first to sell a car with under-rated power specs. They and anybody else can sell what ever they want to as long as it's road legal. At any rate, the competition is definitely ramping up....but competition is good. I hope it makes porsche better, and very quickly so. Porsche still has a racing heritage that most if not all are envious of. I don't see Porsche letting up on continuing the legacy any time soon.
BTW, I would love to work for PCNA. Last time I looked at positions I was interested in, they all required speaking German. Oh well, maybe in my next life.
08-09-2008 | 04:11 PM
#66
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
From: Reno, NV
I agree, competition is good. and Porsche has been getting a lot of passive aggressive negative press about this subject so I'd bet that they have their engineers working double time to come up with something that's going to even the playing field.
As far as Nissan's specs. everyone knows they're understating the actual output. But Porsche has been known to do the same thing from time to time, smart marketing.
It boils down to expectation... and in the auto industry expectation is everything. In one of my PCNA training seminars they gave us an example about exceeding or not meeting a customer's expectation:
So let's say you buy a new $90K+ Porsche and the dealer tells you that this German engineered car is going to be absolutely trouble free for the next 10 years.
After buying your Porsche you cruise down to Scion to buy your kid a $15K car and the dealer tells you that this Japanese engineered car is going to be absolutely trouble free for the next 5 years.
So after 8 years your Porsche breaks down, catastrophic failure...
And on the same day your kid's Scion breaks down too, also a catastrophic failure...
Which car exceeded your expectations and which one fell short?
The same could be applied to specs...
It's better to exceed your customer's expectation than to fall short.
As far as Nissan's specs. everyone knows they're understating the actual output. But Porsche has been known to do the same thing from time to time, smart marketing.
It boils down to expectation... and in the auto industry expectation is everything. In one of my PCNA training seminars they gave us an example about exceeding or not meeting a customer's expectation:
So let's say you buy a new $90K+ Porsche and the dealer tells you that this German engineered car is going to be absolutely trouble free for the next 10 years.
After buying your Porsche you cruise down to Scion to buy your kid a $15K car and the dealer tells you that this Japanese engineered car is going to be absolutely trouble free for the next 5 years.
So after 8 years your Porsche breaks down, catastrophic failure...
And on the same day your kid's Scion breaks down too, also a catastrophic failure...
Which car exceeded your expectations and which one fell short?
The same could be applied to specs...
It's better to exceed your customer's expectation than to fall short.
08-09-2008 | 11:42 PM
#67
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 968
Likes: 0
From: Albq. New Mexico
I have driven and owned cars that would out perform a 997tt at half the price or less. there is a passion, history, and dedication porsche has to their cars. if you don't get it then you will drive something else, perhaps cheaper.
08-10-2008 | 04:13 PM
#68
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,957
Likes: 107
From: Wilmington, NC
08-11-2008 | 12:20 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,121
Likes: 1
From: Montreal
08-12-2008 | 05:11 AM
#70
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 0
From: Atnens Greece
I am not sure about CGT time but GT2 time is correct and according to his interview he gave a few days ago to EVO mag over here in greece ( at the presentation of the NEW 997 with the PDK) he had to overtake 12 cars in order to achieve the 7.32 sec, and one overtake ( according to him) was with 307 klms/h.....
in the same interview he gave he stated that he has doubts if a car with 1740 kgr and 480 Ps kan hit the 7.29 sec....
my opinion though is that we have to wait the new 997 TT with PDK...997 S PDK is 8 sec faster than normal 997 S at the ring...
harris
in the same interview he gave he stated that he has doubts if a car with 1740 kgr and 480 Ps kan hit the 7.29 sec....
my opinion though is that we have to wait the new 997 TT with PDK...997 S PDK is 8 sec faster than normal 997 S at the ring...
harris
08-12-2008 | 11:30 AM
#72
Advanced
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 55
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Amen harris let's see what the 997 TT with PDK will do at the ring. Again, there's so much hype about the GTR and so many mag reviews...I'll be excited to see one in person both standing still and on the road for the first time. Also, anyone who actually DRIVES one, please let us know your impressions. Too much numbers talk, let's get some driving impressions from folks that aren't mag editors.
I have driven a new BMW M3 (which was compared to the 911 turbo by C & D) and actually won the test. I was very impressed with the new M3. Great power with linear delivery, well built and a solid handler. However, at the time I owned an 06 C2S, and I was actually looking to trade. Then I drove the TT and that ended that. The thing is, I think the new C2S with PDK is going to be a beast, and it's because of the tranny. So, there's little doubt the 997TT with PDK is going to be a whole different car than the manual or old Tip version.
The 997TT V GTR is an entertaining and fair comparo right now, but when the 997 TT gets the PDK, then we're gonna be in for another dogfight. I'm lookin' forward to it!
I have driven a new BMW M3 (which was compared to the 911 turbo by C & D) and actually won the test. I was very impressed with the new M3. Great power with linear delivery, well built and a solid handler. However, at the time I owned an 06 C2S, and I was actually looking to trade. Then I drove the TT and that ended that. The thing is, I think the new C2S with PDK is going to be a beast, and it's because of the tranny. So, there's little doubt the 997TT with PDK is going to be a whole different car than the manual or old Tip version.
The 997TT V GTR is an entertaining and fair comparo right now, but when the 997 TT gets the PDK, then we're gonna be in for another dogfight. I'm lookin' forward to it!
08-12-2008 | 03:21 PM
#73
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,025
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From: Atnens Greece
and again what i said about the 997 TT with PDK Vs the GTR was not in any terms to try to minimize any advantage that the GTR has-might have Vs the 997 TT.
I want to be fair...997 TT is more than 2 years old car (with technology of a 2 years old car- whatever that means) Vs a very brand new car....
again to my eyes 997 TT is not = to GTR
997 TT PDK = GTR
harris
p.s. GTR is a very capable cheap supercar. and thatis what we should have in mind
I want to be fair...997 TT is more than 2 years old car (with technology of a 2 years old car- whatever that means) Vs a very brand new car....
again to my eyes 997 TT is not = to GTR
997 TT PDK = GTR
harris
p.s. GTR is a very capable cheap supercar. and thatis what we should have in mind
08-20-2008 | 02:48 AM
#74
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 968
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From: Albq. New Mexico
the GTR has been in development(R&D through actual product) for 8yrs. I would hope it works with out a trip back to the dealer for some cel codes.
FYI: GTR still not here, cert issue with dealer. ETA week or two....WTFK
FYI: GTR still not here, cert issue with dealer. ETA week or two....WTFK