eclou

SciFrog if you aren't too far from AWE, you might call them for a test drive on their sorted uber 997tt. The 997tt is the same tub as the rest of the uber 997's - GT3, RS, Cup and responds quite well to an upgraded suspension. Pete from Excellence - a known detractor of the 997tt - has found a lightly modded Champion 997tt to be the ultimate 911 he has even driven.

SciFrog

Tks eclou.

The suspension mod seems to be a must have on the 997TT... And with any stage II, the TT is unreal.

Not to make this a long personal story, but since wanting the 997TT so bad, several things happened, I have been tainted by the dark side, and realized I don't want that much hp to drive on the streets locally. My mini just prove you can have so much fun without going fast. The V8 is fast enough. So putting emphasis on the feedback of the car is going to be my priority vs performance. I understand whre you come from though, all the tracking and mile run, the TT makes perfect sense. Going to try a 612, but really the F149 should be perfect for my uses...

eclou

F149? You must have some pull to get on that list. That car should be quite dreamy!

SciFrog

No pull, just trying to get some... That's where the 612 comes in

If they really make 4,000+ a year, might get a chance anyway.

cannga

SciFrog,
Yes I agree a test drive would help. But then, if the gorgeous Ferrari is in your future, I would understand if you have no interest.

For original poster:

If you can't get a test drive of a Turbo, then at least try a C2 or C2S. I owned both cars long term and could offer my opinions. When it comes to suspension stiffness and overall "feel," the 2 cars are very similar; the Turbo is more or less a C2 on steroid. Slight differences are that the Turbo feels more planted in corners (plus), has less "floaty" front end (plus) and heavier steering feel (minus). In stock form the Turbo's will go through corners at speeds that are white-knuckle all-out-scream scary with predictability, as long as you don't lift throttle mid corner.

Don't expect the Turbo to be a GT3 with more power! That WILL lead to disappointment IMHO as among other things, the Turbo is not as low and its suspension not as stiff. This is where magazine reviews have led readers astray: Drag the Turbo to the track, compared it against a track monster like the GT3, then declared the "disappointment." What the reviewers don't tell you is what happens when you have to own the car and drive it to work daily, as opposed to a one day session at the track. While the GT3 makes the perfect daily driver for some, for others like me, the Turbo has no competition, even in stock form. This is the YMMV part and as a long term GT3 owner, you may just find the Turbo, and C2/C2S, suspension to be not stiff enough. That I would understand perfectly; the Turbo is not the perfect car for everyone. (You will very likely love the seemingly limitless power and torque though.)

IMHO, even in stock form, the Turbo's capability FAR FAR exceeds most non professionals' capibility and reasonable street safety and suspension mod is NOT a must by any stretch of imagination (Ask TTSurgeon about this; he tracks his car in stock form I believe.). Yes I am thinking of modding my car (nothing new, stiffer, lower, to be like eclou's ), but the need is no more than that of a GT3 owner tinkering with his car; more or less a desire/curiosity to experiment. At the same time I am hesitating because obviously nothing comes free: more trackability more often than not means some degree of worsening ride, noise, scraping, and less street driveabiility.

jweslowski

Thank you for all the value opinions posted in response to my original questions. Most posters agree that the 997TT is still the ultimate street car, and I agree 100%.

The 997TT is still the only car I am considering as a daily driver because:
- it is very capable in any weather condition (I live in Canada)
- the car provides sufficient feedback to be very pleasing to drive
- the acceleration is blistering; it grips and goes like any other car - Vipers and Vettes will just spin their wheels trying to lay down similar power and torque
- I need a back seat to occasionally take my two children with me
- a proper 6 speed manual is a requirement for me (sorry GT-R and your fancy DSG transmission). I need a car that rewards my driving skill not a car my grandma could shift as well as any race car driver.

I can't imagine a car with the GT-Rs capability that would be more boring to drive. The active yaw control will dial in the perfect slip angle as long as you are with under 110% of the limit of traction. This will make the car very easy to drive on the track. This tells me most drivers will plateau very soon after buying a GT-R. What I enjoy the most about my GT3 is that it will take me years to master that car. It is just my ability that controls that car. The GT-R is the anti-GT3. The TT sounds like it will require some significant time to master on the track, perhaps even more than a GT3.

Finally, regarding handling, it sounds like the 997TT is more than adequate. It just requires appropriate respect in managing the massive torque the engine provides. I don't see this as a flaw. Again, I don't want a car that drives itself.

I will treat the LSD option as mandatory in my search for a used 997TT. From what I can tell, an TT without this option will use Active Brake Differential to act as a LSD. This feature is part of PTM, which I think is turned off when PSM is turned off (not sure?). In an aggressive corner with no PSM, when the inside rear starts to lift and loose traction, some torque will be routed to the front but not all. Of the rear torque that remains, most will be routed to the loose inside rear wheel and the outside rear that was driving the car will lose its torque. This will not yield desirable behavior in the corner. I think it would be similar to what happens if you lift off in the corner. If you don't have LSD, leave PSM on and use sport mode. Am I right about this?

Thanks again everyone for taking the time to respond to my questions.

cannga

You are welcome and good luck. I still am not sure if you will like the Turbo, mainly because you own a GT3. To state the obvious: In general, GT3 owners tend not to like the Turbo-too soft, and Turbo owners tend not to like the GT3-too stiff. Just make sure you get an extended test drive.

I am NOT sure if LSD makes that big of a difference in the overall feel of this car. The key IMHO is to understand the purpose of the Turbo: It is a daily driver, a C2S with outrageous nuclear power. It is not a track car unless modded, and it won't feel like a mid engine car. The disappointment comes from too high expectation (track AND daily driver), misunderstanding the goal Porsche has for this car (daily driver), and not gasping the inherent nature of ALL 911's (happy tail).

jweslowski

Thanks Cannga. I agree with you. I can't come to terms with getting rid of my GT3, so I will keep it mainly as a track car.

The GT3 is not much of a street car in my opinion. It don't mind it as a street car, but it doesn't really come alive until very high speeds because the torque comes on at such high RPM. It also gets unsettled over some bumpy roads and tracks ruts like crazy with the camber settings I have. It requires a high level of attention at all times.

I plan to use the Turbo as a daily driver, even in a Canadian winter. The low end torque of the Turbo is epic and is fun at much lower speeds, it has a great street suspension, decent ground clearance, and has PSM if I don't have my highest level of focus during normal street driving.

Another note, the GT3 doesn't feel very fast with its minimal torque, but it is fast. The Turbo feels monster fast with its massive torque and extreme AWD and rear engine grip, even though it is barely faster than the GT3.

One of each really is the best of both worlds.

Moderato

Wouldn't the C4S be more like the TT, rather then the C2S ?

stout

Too true. But when I start seeing the big books complain about a car across the board, then I know there might actually be something there. That is, unless I already noticed it and was waiting for someone on their staff to notice it, too.

pete

stout

More or less, I agree. Good summation. To it, I would add that ride height (effective suspension travel under load) + soft suspension + PASM unpredictability + turbo lag (notably more than plain, non-X50 996 Turbo) make for a chassis that fights with itself and its driver.

Bummer is that it isn't a fun challenge. It's just a challenge.

pete

stout

COMPLETELY agree.

pete

stout

Those light suspension mods *transformed* that 997TT into a car I'd rather have than a 997 GT3 or GT3 RS. I just drove a GT2, but only briefly, and the revised roll centers seem to have fixed a lot of what I don't like about the current GT3's handling. However, I didn't get to push very hard (conditions wouldn't allow), so I'll have to wait until the press car shows up (today or tomorrow).

Even so, based on motor, sounds, and visuals, I'd take a K1 for similar money over a new GT2. So I think the 997TT can be made into a seriously desirable car. But, in stock form, I don't pine for it in the way I did early 996 Turbos.

As for my personal ultimate 911? That title still belongs to the Ruf CTR, followed by 996 GT3 and 993 RS. Werks K1 is "merely" the best modern Porsche I've driven since the C-GT, and the only 997 I've driven that I (think I) like better than the R8 in dynamic terms. That would be a VERY tough call, however.

And, yes, I worried that K1 story was too much of a rave review, but that's how good that car really was. It just flat out shocked me.

Cheers!

pete

eclou

Thanks for the insight Pete. Hopefully Porsche is listening and might consider making some kind of X51 suspension package for the 09 turbo or an "S" model with the revisions, especially since the limited GT3/RS variants will be out of production for a bit

E55AMG

What suspension mods did Champion do?