whyb2nd

for sure, the f car is beautiful to the eye until the repair bills start adding up. it starts getting ugly after that, plus you can't drive it while it's at the shop. TT, all around super car imo....

CaptBirdeFPR

...i respecfully disagree, the ferrari has alot more going for it than just the looks, f430's and 360s will out handle any 911...as much as i love 911's (and god knows i do) they handle like dumptrucks compared to mid engine cars(and porsche knows it)...
and i would point out that around a track, ive seen 360's out perform MODIFIED 911 turbos (and it had nothign to do with the driver, because the 360 driver and the porsche driver switched off and both were extremely experienced race car drivers)...and either way the 360 did better...

id have a hard choice to choose between a f430 and a 997 turbo....

docjackson1

gentleman-as i am sure that you all must know, if you are even considering buying a new ferrari, the dealers will screw the sh-t out of you-you will have to go through all type of crap (first buy a used car at a big time inflated price from the dealer, then get on a list, wait a year or too, when your car comes in sell your used car back to the same dealer at a deeply discounted price so that he may mark it up to the next guy-then pick up your new car at a premium). if you are looking to buy a used ferrari, then be prepared to pay a big premium for that used f430. ferraris are beautiful cars, but as others have said, if you drive them more than a couple thousand a year, they depreciate significantly-and the price of entry is crazy and painful. on the other hand, the 997tt is as quick, if not quicker, in addition, is a daily driver and all you have to do is to go to a dealer and pay at worst, msrp. here is what i did, and i have to credit mastiff dog for teaching me this. to satisfy my urge to have something else fast to drive, i took $45,000 and went online and found a brand new 2008 c6 corvette to buy-it satisfies my urge to drive something else. for that sum of money, you get a 430 hp sports car. so now i have a 997tt and a vette-things could be worse-and that is without doing gymnastics at the ferrari dealer's place,

eclou

I got a nice 993tt to satisfy that itch for variety...

docjackson1

another good idea, my friend

C.J. Ichiban

If I really had to have something different and hard to fix I'd go with a Lotus for the track (you know that a broken front fender clam is 5k or so, right?) rather than pay a markup for 2 cars at the ferrari place.

I like the way you guys think.

allegretto

I'm sorry but I could not disagree with you more. Having personal experience in my own (and thus abusable) TT, 430 and 360. The 360 doesn't even bear mention. The 430's brakes and acceleration hinder it.

Nope, the TT will eat them both.

Now if you put the better driver in the 430...as long as he/she can nurse it around they can stay ahead. But in the normal 25 min track session it won't be easy to cover the warts.

And your hyperbole concerning the handling characteristics of the 911 simply do not add creadence to your position.

CaptBirdeFPR

a rear engine car handles like garbage, sorry, its pure physics, they are dump trucks, i love them, but they simply do! if you have any doubts, look at the history of the cars porsche has made, the 944 turbo S takes a 930 turbo around a track. if porsche would have not made the cayman just to fill a market (between the Boxter and the 911) and added horsepower and done a little more suspension work, it is clear it would WHIP the 911's around a track. rear engine cars just dont handle as good as mid engine cars which is why most race cars these days are mid engine cars and not rear engine cars (im not even go into the fact its a AWD car). I love the 911, but its getting to be time for Porsche to move on.

If you dont believe me, ask any creditable race car driver, they will tell you the same thing(i know, I've asked, and i spent alot of time at race car shops and race tracks, and am friends with alot of racecar drivers and mechanics). i dont know what your experiences are with the cars, but it sounds like ur an unbudging porsche purist, which i respect, but you gotta give credit where credit is due, and ferrari's (despite the being finiky cars, that you have to sell your soul to the dealer for) hold their own.

The drivers i was talking about, are both exelent racecar drivers, who both have numerous races under their belt (not track days). both have participated in the rolex 24 hours of daytona (driving a gt3 cup car), and BOTH would tell you that 911's are dumptrucks compared to mid engine cars. (and it was proven in their laptimes)

I POINT OUT im talking handling and performance around a track. and i would still be hard pressed to choose (assuming financials were not a factor) to choose between the two

i dont need to use big words, proper punctuation and spelling to make myself sound credible

eclou

While I don't disagree that Ferrari's are fantastic cars, a quick scan of lap times of any course around the world will show far more rear-engined Porsches clawing out fantastic lap times than mid engined F-cars. Whether that is skewed because of sample size, demographics, or other factors, etc - who can say? Even the new GT2 is turning the same N-ring time as the ultimate mid-engined Carrera GT.

allegretto

Whatza matter? Big words scare you? Don't be so defensive...it really doesn't matter

My syntax is irrelevant. What is relevant is that I have spent days with real Porsche sponsored racers trying vainly to teach me how to drive these cars. And no, I am not a blind Porschephile. You should not assume that you know very much about me. Anyone who knows me will tell you that I'm just having fun picking a little fruit from a tree I fantasized about while growing up. I've owned every serious marque but a Lambo and A-M. I play no favorites, but I do have opinions.

I see where you say you've been studying the orthodoxy of common thinking about Porsche and Ferrari. Listening to the chat of "informed sources" and such.I didn't notice your opinions being based upon personal experience however. It's not an issue as to whether or not I "believe" you, the simplicity is that I do believe my own personal experience.

If you persist in referring to 911 handling as "dump truck" and "garbage", perhaps you've arrived at the wrong forum. No problem really and we all know the cure.

Yes, the factory 430's are formidable and between their chassis and engine can go faster than the best of the 911's for now.

But a street 430 is no match for a TT on the track and I've already pointed out how I know.

turbonator

Driving a F-car is like screaming "look at me!". People will stare, you won't be able to park the car at will, cops will target you, etc. I'd rather not deal with the hassles.

CaptBirdeFPR

haha go ahead flex your Platinum card phallus at me...i get it, ur rich, im not

your really cute "real porsche sponsored drivers", i think i'd take Horst Farnbacher's knowledge over urs and your so called "real porsche sponsored drivers" anyday...(want me to name some more?)

Its simply a fact, a rear engine car will not handle like a mid engine car will because it cant be as well balanced (unless u wanna stick weights in the front i guess) all those race cars designers who have created mid engine cars cant be wrong (and id point out most of porsche's race cars are mid engine). 911's always have been and always will be point and squirt cars that are very rear end happy (which porsche is trying to fix with thier awd system), and i would point out they have improved alot...its just what they are, and i appreciate them for it and all of the other mechanical feats and race pedigree (and yes 911's have beat ferrari's and vice versa, im just saying if this gentlemen is looking for a better handling car i would go with the ferrari), just as i respect the ferrari (which i would point out has many flaws). and i WOULD STILL be hard pressed to choose between the two cars if money were no object

and i would point out, no i dont have any experience driving a f430 or a 997 turbo around a track myself, because i dont have the funds to pay for it if something happens ( i have gotten the offer though). I have gotten lucky enough to drive them on the street though. and i was definitely impressed, because the 911 has come a long way! and i am workin on getting my SCCA license right now...

just out of curiousity.... do you think, ur 997 (modified or watever) could take a little Carbir with a pinto 4 banger in it? im just curious? or how about a formula ford?

haha because i say the 997 handles like a dumptruck ive ended up at the wrong forum??? wow ur definitely not a porschephile... clearly i stepped out of line by saying ANYTHING negative about the 997... im gonna go pray to the gods of porsche and beg for forgiveness and than go sit in the corner and punish myself i am going to be in porsche purgatory for this!!!

Back to the original topic, how about you throw a third car into the mix??? the Ford GT? you get the best of both world, mid engine car, thats reliable and is a car that i dont see loosing value (unless you ruin it). plus they are reasonably priced... at least in my opinion...

Solo1111

Gosh, I still have a hard time parking my TT at will. I guess I am still very much in the honeymoon period with my car. I cannot justifiy myself to park it anywhere, especially at places like shopping malls, costcos, and supermarkets.

C.J. Ichiban

Ford GT is cool if you can deal with a crappy, uncomfortable interior. amazing engine and exterior style. great for holding value too. on the track it sounds like a beast too.

Lap times?

the GT3 class F430 is a cool car.
the 911 GT3 RSR is a cool car.
they've got totally different design and driving dynamics, as well as transmission characteristics.

but those are race cars- and require a lot of changes (Lorris Kessel in Sui said about 275 part changes from just from the 430 Challenge to the GT3 class one when I was at their workshop. ) even from the gentleman racer to the GT3 class 430. I would hazard to say that more changes are made to the 430 than the 911 to take it endurance racing.

but we're talking street cars, right?
TT vs 430...classic debate! TT has more reliability, sublety, grip and torque. Ferrari has more noise, revs, mid-engine dynamic, and tire smoking fun.
GT2 vs 430 scuderia...classic debate! same as above, just include tons of carbon fiber on the F-car.

somebody actually buy both (or all 4) and let us know. lol.

I wouldn't buy an F430 unless I had 4 other cars because I'd have to occupy myself when it goes in for service, or to keep the miles down. Raise your hand if you'd put 30k miles on a ferrari in 3 or 4 years. no takers? Longevity has never been a Ferrari strong suit- hell enzo used to cut his old race cars to pieces just to use the scrap aluminum for the newer race cars.

Cytoboy

Thank you all for your thoughts. I really did not want to start any disagreements. Hopefully there are no hard feelings.

I understand that it is ultimately up to me. I was actually preparing to spec an April delivery 997TT cab, but stopped by the Ferrari dealer on my way as I got distracted. When I sat in that F430 and pressed "start" it was pretty much all over. I may have been terminally bitten by the F-bug, and perhaps will have to make the journey. Collectively, we are a very fortunate group.

Cheers.