Tip vs. Manual - new perspective
07-16-2007, 09:52 PM
#1
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Tip vs. Manual - new perspective
Ok, so I'm going to drive the C2S this weekend back to back with tip and 6 speed. I don't think this is going to give me the information I need in regard to the 997tt. Being a normally aspirated engine, the feel of the car is going to obviously be very different than the turbo.
But here's my (uneducated) take on it. The tip is faster in a straight line and around the track - pretty much what everything I've read says. I know it has to do with the tip never letting the car fall off boost. Seems like the tip has seemless, smooth acceleration.
What I can infer from this is that the 6 speed may, in fact, "feel" faster. If the manual is falling off boost during gear changes it means it then has to come through boost again, causing a bump in acceleration - and a little push in the back. This was what I felt in my 993tt when I would shift gears. The VTG should diminish the surge a bit, but I imagine you'd still feel it. Less speed and more drama? Put a passenger in each car and ask them what they think.
Pure speculation...
...but perhaps the visceral experience of the manual supercedes the performance figures of the tip...
...or perhaps I'm completely mistaken.
But here's my (uneducated) take on it. The tip is faster in a straight line and around the track - pretty much what everything I've read says. I know it has to do with the tip never letting the car fall off boost. Seems like the tip has seemless, smooth acceleration.
What I can infer from this is that the 6 speed may, in fact, "feel" faster. If the manual is falling off boost during gear changes it means it then has to come through boost again, causing a bump in acceleration - and a little push in the back. This was what I felt in my 993tt when I would shift gears. The VTG should diminish the surge a bit, but I imagine you'd still feel it. Less speed and more drama? Put a passenger in each car and ask them what they think.
Pure speculation...
...but perhaps the visceral experience of the manual supercedes the performance figures of the tip...
...or perhaps I'm completely mistaken.
07-16-2007, 10:04 PM
#2
Drifting
Oh no... please not another Tip vs. 6speed thread, lol...
I'll make this easy for you, your buying a Porsche turbo.. Now reach between your legs and grab your *****, if you have a handful, get a 6speed. Anything less and a TIP will do you nicely..
B
I'll make this easy for you, your buying a Porsche turbo.. Now reach between your legs and grab your *****, if you have a handful, get a 6speed. Anything less and a TIP will do you nicely..
B
07-16-2007, 10:05 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks B - I was merely trying to subjectify the objective.
07-16-2007, 10:09 PM
#4
Drifting
:wink:
-- I would not consider a 997 Turbo Tip.. Maybe, maybe a SMG type transmission, but not a tip. Unless of course you have a bad leg, sit in a lot of traffic, or just don't want to be bothered with an H box.
Btw, is it a daily driver? If not, NO WAY TIP... If it is, I can understand the justification..
As far as the performance, tip is better, but there are things more important in life that 0-60 times.
B
-- I would not consider a 997 Turbo Tip.. Maybe, maybe a SMG type transmission, but not a tip. Unless of course you have a bad leg, sit in a lot of traffic, or just don't want to be bothered with an H box.
Btw, is it a daily driver? If not, NO WAY TIP... If it is, I can understand the justification..
As far as the performance, tip is better, but there are things more important in life that 0-60 times.
B
07-16-2007, 10:29 PM
#5
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Originally Posted by Dr. G
Ok, so I'm going to drive the C2S this weekend back to back with tip and 6 speed. I don't think this is going to give me the information I need in regard to the 997tt. Being a normally aspirated engine, the feel of the car is going to obviously be very different than the turbo.
But here's my (uneducated) take on it. The tip is faster in a straight line and around the track - pretty much what everything I've read says. I know it has to do with the tip never letting the car fall off boost. Seems like the tip has seemless, smooth acceleration.
What I can infer from this is that the 6 speed may, in fact, "feel" faster. If the manual is falling off boost during gear changes it means it then has to come through boost again, causing a bump in acceleration - and a little push in the back. This was what I felt in my 993tt when I would shift gears. The VTG should diminish the surge a bit, but I imagine you'd still feel it. Less speed and more drama? Put a passenger in each car and ask them what they think.
Pure speculation...
...but perhaps the visceral experience of the manual supercedes the performance figures of the tip...
...or perhaps I'm completely mistaken.
But here's my (uneducated) take on it. The tip is faster in a straight line and around the track - pretty much what everything I've read says. I know it has to do with the tip never letting the car fall off boost. Seems like the tip has seemless, smooth acceleration.
What I can infer from this is that the 6 speed may, in fact, "feel" faster. If the manual is falling off boost during gear changes it means it then has to come through boost again, causing a bump in acceleration - and a little push in the back. This was what I felt in my 993tt when I would shift gears. The VTG should diminish the surge a bit, but I imagine you'd still feel it. Less speed and more drama? Put a passenger in each car and ask them what they think.
Pure speculation...
...but perhaps the visceral experience of the manual supercedes the performance figures of the tip...
...or perhaps I'm completely mistaken.
let me put it this way: the manual "feels" faster below certain speeds, but "is" actually faster above certain speeds.
I too would never ever buy an automatic sports car including all kinds of paddle shifters, if you have 2 legs using them both is much more fun and challenging than using one, but that's my subjective stance.
07-16-2007, 10:40 PM
#6
I really tried to justify a tip- told all my friends it was faster, not a girls car, vastly improved, etc. and drove both and... you know the rest. Anyway, I got the 6 spd and really enjoy it. Has to be the easiest clutch I've ever pushed- puts camrys and accords to shame and shifts like a dream. So unless you're in stop and go traffic all the time, the manual is more fun, engaging, and part of the overall sports car feeling. I have no regrets but the tip would still be fun in it's own way.
07-16-2007, 11:19 PM
#7
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Hate to bust the tip-hater's bubble, but I just drove one. By comparison, I have a 996ttX50 (stock). The new tip turbo/sport chrono feels faster and is faster. In 99% of driving it is also better than a 6 speed. Let me explain.
In traffic, it downshifts faster and catches the sweet spot of the torque curve. Starting from a light, you aren't hampered by the too-short first gear. The car has been engineered to have rear-drive feel, and it will spin the rear tires out of a turn, even with t/c on. The shifts are fast and firm, and free of error. The stick will not feel faster, as the tip puts you in the heart of the power band with a good push on the right pedal.
I'm not someone who is afraid to shift, or dislikes shifting. Aside from my X50, I have 4 vintage racers, all manual. I have raced in every class from sedan to Can-Am. This automatic functions better than almost any driver. It maximizes what the car has to offer, and makes it easier to use the car's potential.
If you are so insecure that you think stirring the lever is more manly, then you won't get to extract maximal performance from this car on a daily basis. If I were going to buy one tomorrow, there is no question. I'd get the tip/chrono.
I won't be getting one tomorrow, since I don't want to part with my X50, and do have a CLKAMG Black on order. But, if you have a space in your garage for a 997tt, it would be a mistake not to get a tip. Just my opinion. AS
In traffic, it downshifts faster and catches the sweet spot of the torque curve. Starting from a light, you aren't hampered by the too-short first gear. The car has been engineered to have rear-drive feel, and it will spin the rear tires out of a turn, even with t/c on. The shifts are fast and firm, and free of error. The stick will not feel faster, as the tip puts you in the heart of the power band with a good push on the right pedal.
I'm not someone who is afraid to shift, or dislikes shifting. Aside from my X50, I have 4 vintage racers, all manual. I have raced in every class from sedan to Can-Am. This automatic functions better than almost any driver. It maximizes what the car has to offer, and makes it easier to use the car's potential.
If you are so insecure that you think stirring the lever is more manly, then you won't get to extract maximal performance from this car on a daily basis. If I were going to buy one tomorrow, there is no question. I'd get the tip/chrono.
I won't be getting one tomorrow, since I don't want to part with my X50, and do have a CLKAMG Black on order. But, if you have a space in your garage for a 997tt, it would be a mistake not to get a tip. Just my opinion. AS
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07-17-2007, 12:30 AM
#9
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Originally Posted by B-Line
As far as the performance, tip is better, but there are things more important in life that 0-60 times.
B
B
07-17-2007, 12:34 AM
#10
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Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer
Hate to bust the tip-hater's bubble, but I just drove one. By comparison, I have a 996ttX50 (stock). The new tip turbo/sport chrono feels faster and is faster. In 99% of driving it is also better than a 6 speed. Let me explain.
In traffic, it downshifts faster and catches the sweet spot of the torque curve. Starting from a light, you aren't hampered by the too-short first gear. The car has been engineered to have rear-drive feel, and it will spin the rear tires out of a turn, even with t/c on. The shifts are fast and firm, and free of error. The stick will not feel faster, as the tip puts you in the heart of the power band with a good push on the right pedal.
I'm not someone who is afraid to shift, or dislikes shifting. Aside from my X50, I have 4 vintage racers, all manual. I have raced in every class from sedan to Can-Am. This automatic functions better than almost any driver. It maximizes what the car has to offer, and makes it easier to use the car's potential.
If you are so insecure that you think stirring the lever is more manly, then you won't get to extract maximal performance from this car on a daily basis. If I were going to buy one tomorrow, there is no question. I'd get the tip/chrono.
I won't be getting one tomorrow, since I don't want to part with my X50, and do have a CLKAMG Black on order. But, if you have a space in your garage for a 997tt, it would be a mistake not to get a tip. Just my opinion. AS
In traffic, it downshifts faster and catches the sweet spot of the torque curve. Starting from a light, you aren't hampered by the too-short first gear. The car has been engineered to have rear-drive feel, and it will spin the rear tires out of a turn, even with t/c on. The shifts are fast and firm, and free of error. The stick will not feel faster, as the tip puts you in the heart of the power band with a good push on the right pedal.
I'm not someone who is afraid to shift, or dislikes shifting. Aside from my X50, I have 4 vintage racers, all manual. I have raced in every class from sedan to Can-Am. This automatic functions better than almost any driver. It maximizes what the car has to offer, and makes it easier to use the car's potential.
If you are so insecure that you think stirring the lever is more manly, then you won't get to extract maximal performance from this car on a daily basis. If I were going to buy one tomorrow, there is no question. I'd get the tip/chrono.
I won't be getting one tomorrow, since I don't want to part with my X50, and do have a CLKAMG Black on order. But, if you have a space in your garage for a 997tt, it would be a mistake not to get a tip. Just my opinion. AS
Some Factory drivers would disagree with you regarding management of the torque curve with the tiptronic. There is a decided preference for the stick, but that is just the guys I've talked with and therefore a limited sample.
07-17-2007, 02:21 AM
#11
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I was pretty specific about thr 99% part of driving. Only on the track would the manual have an advantage, and that is specifcially because on the track, you shift to always keep in the heart of the power band, so the gear-seeking nature of the tip is a lost advantage. on track, you are never burbling along at 2500 rpm. On the street, you are cruising at comfortable (and fairly quiet) rpm's, and decide to move based upon traffic variables. In that case, you can be 1, 2, or more gears away from best performance. The tip responds to those better than the manual. And, by that, I mean better than the best drivers with a manual.
If you try a tip in traffic, this is a no-brainer. It is a very integral part of the engineering package. Turbocharging and automatics go well together. Porsche put the tip, turbo, and sport chrono together for a reason. This is a far more responsive automatic than the one in a Lexus or an Audi.
I don't get the "involvement of driving" stuff. Better is just better. Nobody disconnects their power steering or ABS to increase involvement. I don't see the F1 guys begging for the shift lever back. Being able to concentrate on going fast still feels like 100% involvement. If you need to move your hand back and forth to feel involved, I think that is another activity.
The downside of the tip is some additional weight (bad on track, undetectable in traffic), loss of one gear (very good on the street, as first gear is a bad joke on the 6 speed owners), and it becomes much harder to destroy your drivetrain on a banzai launch, which the drag guys seem to value.
Even though the tip has a few disadvantages on track, I think in a longer race you would prefer it, since it gets rid of driver error, a major cause of DNF.
Obviously, this is just one opinion, but an opinion based on hundreds of thousands of miles in very fast cars. In my race cars with a Jericho, I don't miss the clutch use, and in the tip, I didn't either. I did enjoy being in the right gear at the right time, every time. AS
If you try a tip in traffic, this is a no-brainer. It is a very integral part of the engineering package. Turbocharging and automatics go well together. Porsche put the tip, turbo, and sport chrono together for a reason. This is a far more responsive automatic than the one in a Lexus or an Audi.
I don't get the "involvement of driving" stuff. Better is just better. Nobody disconnects their power steering or ABS to increase involvement. I don't see the F1 guys begging for the shift lever back. Being able to concentrate on going fast still feels like 100% involvement. If you need to move your hand back and forth to feel involved, I think that is another activity.
The downside of the tip is some additional weight (bad on track, undetectable in traffic), loss of one gear (very good on the street, as first gear is a bad joke on the 6 speed owners), and it becomes much harder to destroy your drivetrain on a banzai launch, which the drag guys seem to value.
Even though the tip has a few disadvantages on track, I think in a longer race you would prefer it, since it gets rid of driver error, a major cause of DNF.
Obviously, this is just one opinion, but an opinion based on hundreds of thousands of miles in very fast cars. In my race cars with a Jericho, I don't miss the clutch use, and in the tip, I didn't either. I did enjoy being in the right gear at the right time, every time. AS
07-17-2007, 05:16 AM
#12
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The short shifter in the TT is quite sweet. Driving this car without the manual would be like never getting her bra off. Why limit the tactile bliss? The 0.x second difference in acceleration is hardly going to be noticed (stock). The ECU of the tip also does not respond as well to programming - has issues yet to be resolved. The chipped 6spd is much faster than any stock tip
07-17-2007, 11:12 AM
#15
Originally Posted by Colm
Some Factory drivers would disagree with you regarding management of the torque curve with the tiptronic. There is a decided preference for the stick, but that is just the guys I've talked with and therefore a limited sample.
