997 turbo engine is an embarrassment
01-16-2007, 07:49 AM
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997 turbo engine is an embarrassment
I recently looked at Corvette Z06 engine and compared it with 997 turbo engine. It is amazing how bad the Porsche turbo engine is: bigger, heavier, less horsepower, less torque, and yet incredibly complex (like it has nine oil pumps, no wonder it is so heavy).
Those engineers from Stuttgart should buy air tickets to Detroit and learn a lesson from GM how to build a simple, light, small, powerful engine.
Those engineers from Stuttgart should buy air tickets to Detroit and learn a lesson from GM how to build a simple, light, small, powerful engine.
01-16-2007, 09:27 AM
#4
Originally Posted by mkc4s
I recently looked at Corvette Z06 engine and compared it with 997 turbo engine. It is amazing how bad the Porsche turbo engine is: bigger, heavier, less horsepower, less torque, and yet incredibly complex (like it has nine oil pumps, no wonder it is so heavy).
Those engineers from Stuttgart should buy air tickets to Detroit and learn a lesson from GM how to build a simple, light, small, powerful engine.
Those engineers from Stuttgart should buy air tickets to Detroit and learn a lesson from GM how to build a simple, light, small, powerful engine.
01-16-2007, 10:56 AM
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Mkc4s-
You obviously no nothing about engineering. You could say the same thing about the Dodge Viper's engine - which is a replicant of one of their truck engines.
Your reasoning runs counter-intuitive to the long endurance and realiability record of Porsche Turbo engines versus the Corvette's, in both racing and road use applications.
This is yet again another "flame-like" thread that keeps appearing on this forum - if you don't like the 997 Turbo, at least have some reasonable rationale or post somewhere else.
You obviously no nothing about engineering. You could say the same thing about the Dodge Viper's engine - which is a replicant of one of their truck engines.
Your reasoning runs counter-intuitive to the long endurance and realiability record of Porsche Turbo engines versus the Corvette's, in both racing and road use applications.
This is yet again another "flame-like" thread that keeps appearing on this forum - if you don't like the 997 Turbo, at least have some reasonable rationale or post somewhere else.
01-16-2007, 11:48 AM
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Oh contrare, as much as I love the porsche 997TT engine and all, the SBC Z06 engine is a much better/durable platform for racing. Just look at NASCAR, same basic engine, super reliable, tough to beat.
01-16-2007, 12:14 PM
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Chris
Maybe you should cancel your TT order and get the ZO6(you can get two for the price of one). Also, Porsche has a long and very successful racing history. I don't even recognize Nascar as a racing series(boring, boring, boring). The 997tt is the best car I have ever owned!!!!
Rich
Maybe you should cancel your TT order and get the ZO6(you can get two for the price of one). Also, Porsche has a long and very successful racing history. I don't even recognize Nascar as a racing series(boring, boring, boring). The 997tt is the best car I have ever owned!!!!
Rich
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01-16-2007, 12:16 PM
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I was not aware that NASCAR was involved in endurance racing, but maybe that's one of their emerging markets. I am aware that the recent Corvettes have done well in the GT1 category in Le Mans-type events, but the American manufacturers aren't even close to the number of endurance wins by Porsche, even if they have not been all turbos.
01-16-2007, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mkc4s
I recently looked at Corvette Z06 engine and compared it with 997 turbo engine. It is amazing how bad the Porsche turbo engine is: bigger, heavier, less horsepower, less torque, and yet incredibly complex (like it has nine oil pumps, no wonder it is so heavy).
Those engineers from Stuttgart should buy air tickets to Detroit and learn a lesson from GM how to build a simple, light, small, powerful engine.
Those engineers from Stuttgart should buy air tickets to Detroit and learn a lesson from GM how to build a simple, light, small, powerful engine.
can you provide the WEIGHT and SIZE of each engine and the source of your information? I would like to learn that. thanks.
01-16-2007, 01:14 PM
#10
I do agree that the 997TT engine is unnecessarily complex. The VTG turbos are a gimmick imho.
However, I believe the 997TT engine is still built on a bulletproof reliable platform, proven for decades in endurance racing. Hopefully some of the technology they have thrown on top of it (variable turbos, variable timing, variable intake, etc), don't prove to be unreliable. I can think of nothing more annoying than buying a 997TT out of warranty a few years from now, only to have those various (and expensive) systems start malfunctioning. There is something to be said for simplicity. Engineers are SUPPOSED to find the most elegant/simple solution.
However, I believe the 997TT engine is still built on a bulletproof reliable platform, proven for decades in endurance racing. Hopefully some of the technology they have thrown on top of it (variable turbos, variable timing, variable intake, etc), don't prove to be unreliable. I can think of nothing more annoying than buying a 997TT out of warranty a few years from now, only to have those various (and expensive) systems start malfunctioning. There is something to be said for simplicity. Engineers are SUPPOSED to find the most elegant/simple solution.
01-16-2007, 01:37 PM
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pCar964-
Having run engineering companies, I do agree with your statement, "Engineers are SUPPOSED to find the most elegant/simple solution." In fact the current Corvette ZO6 engine has won many awards for its simplicity and reliability, and that is something to be proud of.
However, in my mind, I have driven and raced both Corvettes and 911 Turbos, and I think in terms of musical analogies (I play in a somewhat well-known band if you like jazz fusion).
The Corvette to me is like listening to Madonna's "Over the Borderline", and the 911 Turbo is like listening to Beethoven's 3rd symphony (Eroica) or Jimi Hendrix playing "Little Wing" (boy, that dates my age). They are all catchy tunes, but boy, in terms of music, Beethoven and Hendrix have Madonna beat by a mile.
Or for a sexist analogy, the Corvette is like a ("Stand By Your Man"- Tammy Wynette) woman, simple and not that smart, but with a great of commitment, whereas the Porsche TT is like dating a smart and beautiful model that will always stay with you (eg. "Sweet Dreams of You", Patsy Cline).
Maybe I have been taking too many drugs recently, performing too many surgeries (sleep-deprived)and doing way too much guitar playing.
BTW - I have the weight and size of the 9977 Turbo engine, and so can you if you cough up $150 for their downloadable shop manual.
Will post when I get the chance....
Having run engineering companies, I do agree with your statement, "Engineers are SUPPOSED to find the most elegant/simple solution." In fact the current Corvette ZO6 engine has won many awards for its simplicity and reliability, and that is something to be proud of.
However, in my mind, I have driven and raced both Corvettes and 911 Turbos, and I think in terms of musical analogies (I play in a somewhat well-known band if you like jazz fusion).
The Corvette to me is like listening to Madonna's "Over the Borderline", and the 911 Turbo is like listening to Beethoven's 3rd symphony (Eroica) or Jimi Hendrix playing "Little Wing" (boy, that dates my age). They are all catchy tunes, but boy, in terms of music, Beethoven and Hendrix have Madonna beat by a mile.
Or for a sexist analogy, the Corvette is like a ("Stand By Your Man"- Tammy Wynette) woman, simple and not that smart, but with a great of commitment, whereas the Porsche TT is like dating a smart and beautiful model that will always stay with you (eg. "Sweet Dreams of You", Patsy Cline).
Maybe I have been taking too many drugs recently, performing too many surgeries (sleep-deprived)and doing way too much guitar playing.
BTW - I have the weight and size of the 9977 Turbo engine, and so can you if you cough up $150 for their downloadable shop manual.
Will post when I get the chance....
01-16-2007, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mkc4s
I recently looked at Corvette Z06 engine and compared it with 997 turbo engine. It is amazing how bad the Porsche turbo engine is: bigger, heavier, less horsepower, less torque, and yet incredibly complex (like it has nine oil pumps, no wonder it is so heavy).
Those engineers from Stuttgart should buy air tickets to Detroit and learn a lesson from GM how to build a simple, light, small, powerful engine.
Those engineers from Stuttgart should buy air tickets to Detroit and learn a lesson from GM how to build a simple, light, small, powerful engine.
01-16-2007, 01:59 PM
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NASCAR
Originally Posted by C4S Surgeon
Oh contrare, as much as I love the porsche 997TT engine and all, the SBC Z06 engine is a much better/durable platform for racing. Just look at NASCAR, same basic engine, super reliable, tough to beat.
01-16-2007, 02:39 PM
#15
Originally Posted by RSA333
pCar964-
Having run engineering companies, I do agree with your statement, "Engineers are SUPPOSED to find the most elegant/simple solution." In fact the current Corvette ZO6 engine has won many awards for its simplicity and reliability, and that is something to be proud of.
However, in my mind, I have driven and raced both Corvettes and 911 Turbos, and I think in terms of musical analogies (I play in a somewhat well-known band if you like jazz fusion).
The Corvette to me is like listening to Madonna's "Over the Borderline", and the 911 Turbo is like listening to Beethoven's 3rd symphony (Eroica) or Jimi Hendrix playing "Little Wing" (boy, that dates my age). They are all catchy tunes, but boy, in terms of music, Beethoven and Hendrix have Madonna beat by a mile.
Or for a sexist analogy, the Corvette is like a ("Stand By Your Man"- Tammy Wynette) woman, simple and not that smart, but with a great of commitment, whereas the Porsche TT is like dating a smart and beautiful model that will always stay with you (eg. "Sweet Dreams of You", Patsy Cline).
Maybe I have been taking too many drugs recently, performing too many surgeries (sleep-deprived)and doing way too much guitar playing.
BTW - I have the weight and size of the 9977 Turbo engine, and so can you if you cough up $150 for their downloadable shop manual.
Will post when I get the chance....
Having run engineering companies, I do agree with your statement, "Engineers are SUPPOSED to find the most elegant/simple solution." In fact the current Corvette ZO6 engine has won many awards for its simplicity and reliability, and that is something to be proud of.
However, in my mind, I have driven and raced both Corvettes and 911 Turbos, and I think in terms of musical analogies (I play in a somewhat well-known band if you like jazz fusion).
The Corvette to me is like listening to Madonna's "Over the Borderline", and the 911 Turbo is like listening to Beethoven's 3rd symphony (Eroica) or Jimi Hendrix playing "Little Wing" (boy, that dates my age). They are all catchy tunes, but boy, in terms of music, Beethoven and Hendrix have Madonna beat by a mile.
Or for a sexist analogy, the Corvette is like a ("Stand By Your Man"- Tammy Wynette) woman, simple and not that smart, but with a great of commitment, whereas the Porsche TT is like dating a smart and beautiful model that will always stay with you (eg. "Sweet Dreams of You", Patsy Cline).
Maybe I have been taking too many drugs recently, performing too many surgeries (sleep-deprived)and doing way too much guitar playing.
BTW - I have the weight and size of the 9977 Turbo engine, and so can you if you cough up $150 for their downloadable shop manual.
Will post when I get the chance....