997 turbo engine is an embarrassment
01-16-2007, 02:53 PM
#16
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Personally(and I love and race and own porsche's) I think the 911 is getting to the end of its tether. They are running out of things to do with the basic model/layout of the car. It has limitations and they are bumping up against them. They can't make a 4.0 liter boxer, they can't improve the balance, there is not much room left for growth.....although i think it may be the most compelling design to drive, the 911 has significant limitations in trying to push into super-car territory, thus C-GT....
01-16-2007, 04:05 PM
#17
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Let's see. The 997TT motor is 3.6l Z06 7.0l
997TT is about 3500-3600 lbs Z06 3100-3200lbs
997TT has 4wd driveline losses Z06 2wd
997TT and Z06 have roughly equal acceleration performance
which motor has to work harder? Add 400lbs ballast to the Z06 and a center differential then tell us.
997TT is about 3500-3600 lbs Z06 3100-3200lbs
997TT has 4wd driveline losses Z06 2wd
997TT and Z06 have roughly equal acceleration performance
which motor has to work harder? Add 400lbs ballast to the Z06 and a center differential then tell us.
01-16-2007, 04:18 PM
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Let's try this....
I look into the ZO6 driver's cranium and find lack of complexity.
I weigh the ZO6 driver's head and find it is very light.
Therefore, the ZO6 driver must be far superior to others.
God help us. Please do civilization a favor and voluntarily remove yourself from the gene pool.
I look into the ZO6 driver's cranium and find lack of complexity.
I weigh the ZO6 driver's head and find it is very light.
Therefore, the ZO6 driver must be far superior to others.
God help us. Please do civilization a favor and voluntarily remove yourself from the gene pool.
01-16-2007, 04:18 PM
#19
Originally Posted by eclou
Let's see. The 997TT motor is 3.6l Z06 7.0l
997TT is about 3500-3600 lbs Z06 3100-3200lbs
997TT has 4wd driveline losses Z06 2wd
997TT and Z06 have roughly equal acceleration performance
which motor has to work harder? Add 400lbs ballast to the Z06 and a center differential then tell us.
997TT is about 3500-3600 lbs Z06 3100-3200lbs
997TT has 4wd driveline losses Z06 2wd
997TT and Z06 have roughly equal acceleration performance
which motor has to work harder? Add 400lbs ballast to the Z06 and a center differential then tell us.
01-16-2007, 04:23 PM
#20
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As a mechanical engineer, I think both engines are finely engineered in my opinion.
They take very different approaches to the same result and use the respective companies' history (push rod V8s vs. flat six boxer).
I personally like the Porsche approach better. Higher specific output (133hp/liter vs. 72 hp/liter) and more racing "learned" features (oil-pumps, materials, chassis tuning, etc.).
I hope the Porsche engineers never go to Detroit - what they would find is a lethargic, financially challenged car company that mostly builds very, very average cars for sales in the 100k of units. Yes and ALOT of trucks. The Z06 shows GM is capable of building a fine sports car, but it is an exception to the general offering. To bad they can't spin it off or manage it separately ala Saturn.
From a business perspective, Porsche wins hands down. I doubt GM makes any money on the Corvette and "invests" in the Z06 to maintain the brand image and presence. Porsche is very profitable across the board. GM makes more money on loaning money than they do on their core business - making cars - that says alot in my book.
They take very different approaches to the same result and use the respective companies' history (push rod V8s vs. flat six boxer).
I personally like the Porsche approach better. Higher specific output (133hp/liter vs. 72 hp/liter) and more racing "learned" features (oil-pumps, materials, chassis tuning, etc.).
I hope the Porsche engineers never go to Detroit - what they would find is a lethargic, financially challenged car company that mostly builds very, very average cars for sales in the 100k of units. Yes and ALOT of trucks. The Z06 shows GM is capable of building a fine sports car, but it is an exception to the general offering. To bad they can't spin it off or manage it separately ala Saturn.
From a business perspective, Porsche wins hands down. I doubt GM makes any money on the Corvette and "invests" in the Z06 to maintain the brand image and presence. Porsche is very profitable across the board. GM makes more money on loaning money than they do on their core business - making cars - that says alot in my book.
01-16-2007, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by pcar964
eclou - you seem pretty happy to point out those observations... you do realize of course, you're establishing the credibility of the 997TT's engine at the expense of the credibility of the 997TT as a sportscar...
01-16-2007, 05:27 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by RSA333
pCar964-
Having run engineering companies, I do agree with your statement, "Engineers are SUPPOSED to find the most elegant/simple solution." In fact the current Corvette ZO6 engine has won many awards for its simplicity and reliability, and that is something to be proud of.
However, in my mind, I have driven and raced both Corvettes and 911 Turbos, and I think in terms of musical analogies (I play in a somewhat well-known band if you like jazz fusion).
The Corvette to me is like listening to Madonna's "Over the Borderline", and the 911 Turbo is like listening to Beethoven's 3rd symphony (Eroica) or Jimi Hendrix playing "Little Wing" (boy, that dates my age). They are all catchy tunes, but boy, in terms of music, Beethoven and Hendrix have Madonna beat by a mile.
Or for a sexist analogy, the Corvette is like a ("Stand By Your Man"- Tammy Wynette) woman, simple and not that smart, but with a great of commitment, whereas the Porsche TT is like dating a smart and beautiful model that will always stay with you (eg. "Sweet Dreams of You", Patsy Cline).
Maybe I have been taking too many drugs recently, performing too many surgeries (sleep-deprived)and doing way too much guitar playing.
BTW - I have the weight and size of the 9977 Turbo engine, and so can you if you cough up $150 for their downloadable shop manual.
Will post when I get the chance....
Having run engineering companies, I do agree with your statement, "Engineers are SUPPOSED to find the most elegant/simple solution." In fact the current Corvette ZO6 engine has won many awards for its simplicity and reliability, and that is something to be proud of.
However, in my mind, I have driven and raced both Corvettes and 911 Turbos, and I think in terms of musical analogies (I play in a somewhat well-known band if you like jazz fusion).
The Corvette to me is like listening to Madonna's "Over the Borderline", and the 911 Turbo is like listening to Beethoven's 3rd symphony (Eroica) or Jimi Hendrix playing "Little Wing" (boy, that dates my age). They are all catchy tunes, but boy, in terms of music, Beethoven and Hendrix have Madonna beat by a mile.
Or for a sexist analogy, the Corvette is like a ("Stand By Your Man"- Tammy Wynette) woman, simple and not that smart, but with a great of commitment, whereas the Porsche TT is like dating a smart and beautiful model that will always stay with you (eg. "Sweet Dreams of You", Patsy Cline).
Maybe I have been taking too many drugs recently, performing too many surgeries (sleep-deprived)and doing way too much guitar playing.
BTW - I have the weight and size of the 9977 Turbo engine, and so can you if you cough up $150 for their downloadable shop manual.
Will post when I get the chance....
Engineering companies, performance musician, racer of Corvettes and Porsches and a surgeon?
One busy life!
What type of surgery? What type of drugs?
As a life-long guitar player I do appreciate Hendrix. But you will agree that although his timing and note pronounciation were novel, his actual playing, progressions, key changes and the like have all been done before.
Eroica on the other hand...
01-16-2007, 05:41 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by mkc4s
I recently looked at Corvette Z06 engine and compared it with 997 turbo engine. It is amazing how bad the Porsche turbo engine is: bigger, heavier, less horsepower, less torque, and yet incredibly complex (like it has nine oil pumps, no wonder it is so heavy).
Those engineers from Stuttgart should buy air tickets to Detroit and learn a lesson from GM how to build a simple, light, small, powerful engine.
Those engineers from Stuttgart should buy air tickets to Detroit and learn a lesson from GM how to build a simple, light, small, powerful engine.
Maybe Mom can get you one of those 1:43 models until you're old enough for a license.
01-16-2007, 05:51 PM
#25
When I read the first post on this thread my immediate thought was it was written by an *** clown troll. Most of the responses though have gone the course of why Porsche is a better car/package. True enough and it's the overall package that matters.
That said, I think the LS7/Z06/427 engine is pretty impressive. Huge power everywhere, durable, and efficient. My Z gets about 25MPG on the road. I may be a bit off but but I think the 427/7L weighs about 440lbs and the tt is 490 with the exhaust on it. I've rebuilt several 911's and always marveled at how beautiful the parts are that your don't see. The crankshafts for example. The internal workings are art. A 427 on an engine stand looks better than you may think too. The days of crappy castings are over on that motor.
I think the Z engine package shows what can be done domestically but it doesn't happen often enough.
Which is better? I favor Porsches but it's kind of a moot point. The 427 works in a Corvette but wouldn't work in a 997 and vice versa.
That said, I think the LS7/Z06/427 engine is pretty impressive. Huge power everywhere, durable, and efficient. My Z gets about 25MPG on the road. I may be a bit off but but I think the 427/7L weighs about 440lbs and the tt is 490 with the exhaust on it. I've rebuilt several 911's and always marveled at how beautiful the parts are that your don't see. The crankshafts for example. The internal workings are art. A 427 on an engine stand looks better than you may think too. The days of crappy castings are over on that motor.
I think the Z engine package shows what can be done domestically but it doesn't happen often enough.
Which is better? I favor Porsches but it's kind of a moot point. The 427 works in a Corvette but wouldn't work in a 997 and vice versa.
01-16-2007, 06:08 PM
#26
Originally Posted by eclou
I would concur, except I have tracked the 997TT and it blew away my expectations. Even if Porsche had put "distronic", back up cameras, massage seats and a latte machine on board, the thing can simply perform on a road course on par or better than my dedicated track car. And that is with stock alignment specs. Call me a believer.
01-16-2007, 06:47 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by pcar964
Lap times are not the measure of sportiness imho. I'm sure an SL55 AMG is as fast as my 993 on most tracks. But I would hardly call it a sportscar.
I'll bite. What is the measure of sportiness/sportscar? Would it be discomfort, inconvenience or high effort with all driving inputs? I think the 997TT can excel as both a track car and a GT. By that rationale you are correct not to brand it as only sportscar, because it is capable of much, much more.
And no a 4000lb SL55 is not capable of running with most 3000lb 993's on a roadcourse, whereas the 3500lb 997TT can stay neck and neck with 2 of the fastest street cars - the 3100 lb 997GT3 and Z06.
01-16-2007, 07:11 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by eclou
I'll bite. What is the measure of sportiness/sportscar? Would it be discomfort, inconvenience or high effort with all driving inputs? I think the 997TT can excel as both a track car and a GT. By that rationale you are correct not to brand it as only sportscar, because it is capable of much, much more.
And no a 4000lb SL55 is not capable of running with most 3000lb 993's on a roadcourse, whereas the 3500lb 997TT can stay neck and neck with 2 of the fastest street cars - the 3100 lb 997GT3 and Z06.
And no a 4000lb SL55 is not capable of running with most 3000lb 993's on a roadcourse, whereas the 3500lb 997TT can stay neck and neck with 2 of the fastest street cars - the 3100 lb 997GT3 and Z06.
An SL-55 staying with a 993??? He he he, for about the front straight, then...it's over. Can you imagine the "electronic hand" taking over while you're trail-braking and trying to set up for an exit?
01-17-2007, 12:21 AM
#30
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Having driven a C5 and C6 ZO6 on a track I know well, I can compare it's engine to the engine in my ttX50 (haven't driven a 997tt). The ZO6 is very impressive. We have no advantage in any measurable area except power per cubic inch. The ZO6 engine is linear, smooth, rev-happy, vibration-less, and powerful. The car is reasonably quite and quite comfortable. The car turns in better than ours, but doesn't put power down as well coming out.
The standard traction control must be turned off, as it makes the car not respond to trail braking- there our cars are better.
If I were to make the choice today, it would be tough. The primary advantage of the Porsche is image, and that is hard to value. Those who want to trivialize how excellent the Z06 has become are ignoring the obvious, perhaps because of vested interest. The complexity of our internal components is a serious disadvantage, and I see no evidence that our engines are more durable. AS
The standard traction control must be turned off, as it makes the car not respond to trail braking- there our cars are better.
If I were to make the choice today, it would be tough. The primary advantage of the Porsche is image, and that is hard to value. Those who want to trivialize how excellent the Z06 has become are ignoring the obvious, perhaps because of vested interest. The complexity of our internal components is a serious disadvantage, and I see no evidence that our engines are more durable. AS