What would you do? Range 5 Over rev CPO'd 997.2 GT3
01-26-2017, 01:30 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
What would you do? Range 5 Over rev CPO'd 997.2 GT3
I know this topic has been beat to death. I also know people are super picky on here about DME reports.
That being said I wanted to run this very specific scenario by everyone.
I have a deposit, trade, and deal all worked out for a 997.2 GT3. I did not ask for a DME report before committing because A) it is CPO eligible and B) it is one of the top Porsche dealers in the country and I know the sales person through work.
I have discovered that it has a range 5 over rev. Now, it has been CPO'd which means it had to go ~200 hours after the incident and they had to do a leak down test and compression test in order to qualify it. If you break down the range 5, it is 109 ignitions, or 36 revolutions. Worst case lets assume 11,000 rpm or 183 rps. 36/183 is 0.19 or less than a quarter second at that engine speed.
Personally, I don't see any mechanical issues with this nor do I see any mechanical risk given the 2yr 50k CPO.
However, I am painfully aware of how DME reports can ruin resale.
In this case what would you do if you could:
1. Provide CPO leak down and compression results to the next owner
2. Transfer the remainder of the 2yr 50k?
New development: Checked 997.2 prices. This one I'm paying about $15k below average for the 22 that are for sale in the US on Autotrader. Also, only 3 cars including this one have the carbon buckets. I'm almost thinking this is enough of price gap to defend me if I ever resale.
I'm not made of money. This is a big purchase for me but I'm also pretty honest and good at marketing my own cars when I go to move on to something else. Sadly I think the DME report stigma is what is giving me pause on what would be an otherwise solid car. I'm not a collector but I don't have $20-30k to eat on resale if I can't find someone willing to look past a nothingburger.
I'd also be curious to know from anyone that actually sold a range 5 over rev car to see if it was just people walking away from the car or if they truly had to sell the car at a steep discount to move it.
I can go buy a 997.1 for less money with no range 5s, but if I money shift once I have effectively screwed myself just the same. That's a lot of dice rolling. I'm pretty adept at tracking but I have over revved cars before on the track. It happens. And of course none of those had an ill effect but if I take a clean one and do it once...poof.
That being said I wanted to run this very specific scenario by everyone.
I have a deposit, trade, and deal all worked out for a 997.2 GT3. I did not ask for a DME report before committing because A) it is CPO eligible and B) it is one of the top Porsche dealers in the country and I know the sales person through work.
I have discovered that it has a range 5 over rev. Now, it has been CPO'd which means it had to go ~200 hours after the incident and they had to do a leak down test and compression test in order to qualify it. If you break down the range 5, it is 109 ignitions, or 36 revolutions. Worst case lets assume 11,000 rpm or 183 rps. 36/183 is 0.19 or less than a quarter second at that engine speed.
Personally, I don't see any mechanical issues with this nor do I see any mechanical risk given the 2yr 50k CPO.
However, I am painfully aware of how DME reports can ruin resale.
In this case what would you do if you could:
1. Provide CPO leak down and compression results to the next owner
2. Transfer the remainder of the 2yr 50k?
New development: Checked 997.2 prices. This one I'm paying about $15k below average for the 22 that are for sale in the US on Autotrader. Also, only 3 cars including this one have the carbon buckets. I'm almost thinking this is enough of price gap to defend me if I ever resale.
I'm not made of money. This is a big purchase for me but I'm also pretty honest and good at marketing my own cars when I go to move on to something else. Sadly I think the DME report stigma is what is giving me pause on what would be an otherwise solid car. I'm not a collector but I don't have $20-30k to eat on resale if I can't find someone willing to look past a nothingburger.
I'd also be curious to know from anyone that actually sold a range 5 over rev car to see if it was just people walking away from the car or if they truly had to sell the car at a steep discount to move it.
I can go buy a 997.1 for less money with no range 5s, but if I money shift once I have effectively screwed myself just the same. That's a lot of dice rolling. I'm pretty adept at tracking but I have over revved cars before on the track. It happens. And of course none of those had an ill effect but if I take a clean one and do it once...poof.
Last edited by Accel Junky; 01-26-2017 at 02:41 PM.
01-26-2017, 02:45 PM
#3
Instructor
After the 2 year CPO is up - then what - do you plan on keeping the car, or will you sell it? Selling it will always carry that stigma, and thus lower price - which hopefully you're getting from that anyway. If the engine blows after the CPO expires, and you own the car - that's $$$
What's that quote? Nothings more expensive than a cheap Porsche..
The 997.2 has some much nicer traction control than the 997.1, but since I've just been tracking my car for 2 years - I'm a novice, and likely wouldn't notice much of the difference.
It might be fine, but it might be a ticking time bomb - it's a chance you take, compensated by the cheaper cost.
I wouldn't buy it.
What's that quote? Nothings more expensive than a cheap Porsche..
The 997.2 has some much nicer traction control than the 997.1, but since I've just been tracking my car for 2 years - I'm a novice, and likely wouldn't notice much of the difference.
It might be fine, but it might be a ticking time bomb - it's a chance you take, compensated by the cheaper cost.
I wouldn't buy it.
01-26-2017, 02:58 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
After the 2 year CPO is up - then what - do you plan on keeping the car, or will you sell it? Selling it will always carry that stigma, and thus lower price - which hopefully you're getting from that anyway. If the engine blows after the CPO expires, and you own the car - that's $$$
What's that quote? Nothings more expensive than a cheap Porsche..
The 997.2 has some much nicer traction control than the 997.1, but since I've just been tracking my car for 2 years - I'm a novice, and likely wouldn't notice much of the difference.
It might be fine, but it might be a ticking time bomb - it's a chance you take, compensated by the cheaper cost.
I wouldn't buy it.
What's that quote? Nothings more expensive than a cheap Porsche..
The 997.2 has some much nicer traction control than the 997.1, but since I've just been tracking my car for 2 years - I'm a novice, and likely wouldn't notice much of the difference.
It might be fine, but it might be a ticking time bomb - it's a chance you take, compensated by the cheaper cost.
I wouldn't buy it.
01-26-2017, 03:14 PM
#5
I can see how this is tempting. We all love these cars. But, it's a lot of money to spend on a toy. If you want to buy a gt3. Buy a really good one. You'll thank me later.
01-26-2017, 03:43 PM
#6
Three Wheelin'
01-26-2017, 03:44 PM
#7
Race Director
You don't want to have any worries in your mind while driving it. Pass.
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01-26-2017, 03:56 PM
#9
Instructor
I myself would pass on this car. Especially if you are planning on selling it in a year, it will most definitely be a tough sell. This would be a good candidate to buy cheap and enjoy for the 2 year cpo, then send it off to Sharkwerks for their 4.1 build. It would have to be something you were keeping for that though.
01-26-2017, 04:48 PM
#10
I suggest ask Porsche to rebuild the engine prior to pickup. At their cost. Or walk away.
If these engines let go, there is a lot of labour in a rebuild. Assume 100 hours. Plus very dear parts if needed like rods. Range 5 is high so you may really neee them.
Fyi I know a GT3 engine that revved to over 11000rpm (yep) that had a perfect test drive and compression afterwards. It wasn't ok but you couldn't tell it's rods needed replacing.
If these engines let go, there is a lot of labour in a rebuild. Assume 100 hours. Plus very dear parts if needed like rods. Range 5 is high so you may really neee them.
Fyi I know a GT3 engine that revved to over 11000rpm (yep) that had a perfect test drive and compression afterwards. It wasn't ok but you couldn't tell it's rods needed replacing.
01-27-2017, 08:40 AM
#11
Rennlist Member
I think you'd get away selling a non-GT car with those over-revs far easier than a GT3. Most GT3 buyers are very in tune with the market and understand why certain cars are worth more than others. Non-GT cars often get purchased more on a whim by someone 'who always wanted a Porsche'.
That said, I don't think you $15K delta is big enough to offset what you're going to lose on resale. I know the moment I saw that report that car would be dead to me. And as you can see from the comments here, that's true of many others.
If you're going to only keep it one or two years I'd suggest stretching up the addition $15K and get a no-stories car that people will be knocking your door down to buy when you decide to move on.
That said, I don't think you $15K delta is big enough to offset what you're going to lose on resale. I know the moment I saw that report that car would be dead to me. And as you can see from the comments here, that's true of many others.
If you're going to only keep it one or two years I'd suggest stretching up the addition $15K and get a no-stories car that people will be knocking your door down to buy when you decide to move on.
01-27-2017, 10:09 AM
#12
Burning Brakes
I think you have your reason why you were able to get 15k off avg pricing. Dealers aren't stupid, they are in it to make money. It's likely they were able to leverage that exact overrev issue against the previous owner to obtain the lowest value.
Even with the diagnostic work that was done, and your aggressive pricing, they will probably still walk away with a 8-10k profit.
If you will hold onto this car, and feel satisfied with the testing and pricing, then by all means, get after it.
Otherwise, resale will undoubtedly be impacted. Even if you have remainder CPO coverage to transfer, the next owner, if they've done their homework, will and should be cautious.
My brain says walk.
Even with the diagnostic work that was done, and your aggressive pricing, they will probably still walk away with a 8-10k profit.
If you will hold onto this car, and feel satisfied with the testing and pricing, then by all means, get after it.
Otherwise, resale will undoubtedly be impacted. Even if you have remainder CPO coverage to transfer, the next owner, if they've done their homework, will and should be cautious.
My brain says walk.
01-27-2017, 11:20 AM
#13
Rennlist Member
I'm surprised that they will actually CPO the car. To my understanding they only CPO cars with revs below range 3. My guess is they realize that 997.2 GT3's do not show up as dealer inventory that often so they are going to push the CPO through.
My advice is to wait it out and pass on this one. If you are going to keep it forever, then it doesn't really matter as long as it's equipped the way you want it.
But if you plan on moving it later, the Rev report will never go away. It's like an accident on Car Fax. And no matter how well you know the dealer and brand ambassador, the day you trade it back into the dealer you bought it from, they're going to tell you that it has an overrev.
My advice is to wait it out and pass on this one. If you are going to keep it forever, then it doesn't really matter as long as it's equipped the way you want it.
But if you plan on moving it later, the Rev report will never go away. It's like an accident on Car Fax. And no matter how well you know the dealer and brand ambassador, the day you trade it back into the dealer you bought it from, they're going to tell you that it has an overrev.
01-27-2017, 11:42 AM
#15
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the input so far.
I was able to check on the CPO stuff. CPO is possible up to 8 model years back. Evidently for any range 4-6 overrev PCNA/PAG requires at least 200 hours since, a leak down and compression check. Those results are then submitted to PCNA engineering for review. Then the vehicle must of course pass all other CPO requirements.
There is a technical bulletin specifically for granting CPO warranty in case of over-rev. The ignitions must descend numerically as the range increases. Implausible stored events can be ignored. Maximum number of total ignitions recordable by the DME is 65536 (just a fun fact).
Less than 200 hours since: Granting of CPO not possible. Exception vehicle received a replacement engine after over rev
Greater than 200 hours since: Tests must occur: check filter for debris, compression test, pressure loss / leakdown test, test drive for engine noise/smoking/shaking/throttle response. Results must be uploaded and a ticket filed with PCNA technical evaluation for possible approval.
As of right now I am still scheduled to fly and pick up the car. I feel confident I'm not rolling the dice on the car itself, just the potential resale challenge. That being said, I think if I do resale it I will have a lot of information to provide upfront to buyers and my price will be attractive enough at least to get people to read it. I know it will be a hard sell if so. I wouldn't dump it unless I was in a financial predicament. Finally, I have over revved a few cars on the track (F80 m3 8200 rpm, Fiesta 2nd to 1st instead of 3rd) despite how experienced I am with manuals and adept at track work. Nothing ill ever happened despite continuous flogging ...I thought to myself if I go buy one with a clean DME report and make just ONE mistake on the track, I've screwed myself on resale anyways.
The car is a 2010 Speed Yellow w/ 23XXX miles. Carbon buckets, PCM w/ Nav, full leather, full contrasting stitching. Brand new Cup2s put on by the dealer. No cage and mods appear minimal(though the dive planes raise a brow). I've done heavy due diligence and cannot find any explicit evidence of it being tracked but like most GT3s I'm sure it has. I'll track it anyways.
I was able to check on the CPO stuff. CPO is possible up to 8 model years back. Evidently for any range 4-6 overrev PCNA/PAG requires at least 200 hours since, a leak down and compression check. Those results are then submitted to PCNA engineering for review. Then the vehicle must of course pass all other CPO requirements.
There is a technical bulletin specifically for granting CPO warranty in case of over-rev. The ignitions must descend numerically as the range increases. Implausible stored events can be ignored. Maximum number of total ignitions recordable by the DME is 65536 (just a fun fact).
Less than 200 hours since: Granting of CPO not possible. Exception vehicle received a replacement engine after over rev
Greater than 200 hours since: Tests must occur: check filter for debris, compression test, pressure loss / leakdown test, test drive for engine noise/smoking/shaking/throttle response. Results must be uploaded and a ticket filed with PCNA technical evaluation for possible approval.
As of right now I am still scheduled to fly and pick up the car. I feel confident I'm not rolling the dice on the car itself, just the potential resale challenge. That being said, I think if I do resale it I will have a lot of information to provide upfront to buyers and my price will be attractive enough at least to get people to read it. I know it will be a hard sell if so. I wouldn't dump it unless I was in a financial predicament. Finally, I have over revved a few cars on the track (F80 m3 8200 rpm, Fiesta 2nd to 1st instead of 3rd) despite how experienced I am with manuals and adept at track work. Nothing ill ever happened despite continuous flogging ...I thought to myself if I go buy one with a clean DME report and make just ONE mistake on the track, I've screwed myself on resale anyways.
The car is a 2010 Speed Yellow w/ 23XXX miles. Carbon buckets, PCM w/ Nav, full leather, full contrasting stitching. Brand new Cup2s put on by the dealer. No cage and mods appear minimal(though the dive planes raise a brow). I've done heavy due diligence and cannot find any explicit evidence of it being tracked but like most GT3s I'm sure it has. I'll track it anyways.