The 997/991, analog vs digital argument....and the 4.0
12-18-2013, 01:38 AM
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The 997/991, analog vs digital argument....and the 4.0
I just read the thread questioning the high price of the 4.0 and I have been thinking about what Porsches I have driven in the past week. They include a new 991 Cup, a 997 Cup, a 997 GT2 RS, a 997 GT3 RS 4.0 and a 73 RS with a 3.3 liter motor that is making 108 HP/liter on pump gas. With the exception of the Carrera GT and a few other rare 964s and 993s, I have had the privilege of experiencing some of the best cars Weissach has produced over the past few decades on a more or less back to back basis in under 7 days. (And I have driven most of the others in the more distant past)
The 991 Cup is probably the car that had me scratching my head the most and catalyzed my thinking on this topic. Here is a purpose built race car, Mezger engined, quicker than its predecessor, and still lacking the basic modern nanny technologies (traction control, ABS, etc).....yet it lacked something from a drivers perspective. The GT2 RS, blindingly fast, incredibly tractable and seemingly perfect.....but it didn't talk to me quite like I expected it to. It seemed almost too refined. The 73.... brutal, ancient, overpowered, under braked, under tired and a lovely Frankenstein power to weight ratio that was downright frightening. The 997 Cup....very connected and visceral, fighting to overcome its inherent limitations.
Yet, among these giants, I come back to the 4.0. It is the car. My experience in the new 991 cup convinced me. Yes, the 991 GT3 will be faster, just like the 991 cup is. Yes, it will be more evolved and refined. Yes, the 997 will look like a P-51 sitting next to an F-18 when a 991 is adjacent.
But none of that really matters. We have transcended the era of speed or lap time being the primary determinant of driver enjoyment. We can make vehicles that operate and perform like military drones...and the operators will have similar disengagement from their capabilities. The full paradigm shift to the "digital" driving experience is rapidly approaching if not upon us.
The 4.0 is the last and the greatest of the greatest generation. I have seen the future....and it is not as great as I had hoped. And that is why a 4.0 is so expensive now, and probably will be for the foreseeable future.
The 991 Cup is probably the car that had me scratching my head the most and catalyzed my thinking on this topic. Here is a purpose built race car, Mezger engined, quicker than its predecessor, and still lacking the basic modern nanny technologies (traction control, ABS, etc).....yet it lacked something from a drivers perspective. The GT2 RS, blindingly fast, incredibly tractable and seemingly perfect.....but it didn't talk to me quite like I expected it to. It seemed almost too refined. The 73.... brutal, ancient, overpowered, under braked, under tired and a lovely Frankenstein power to weight ratio that was downright frightening. The 997 Cup....very connected and visceral, fighting to overcome its inherent limitations.
Yet, among these giants, I come back to the 4.0. It is the car. My experience in the new 991 cup convinced me. Yes, the 991 GT3 will be faster, just like the 991 cup is. Yes, it will be more evolved and refined. Yes, the 997 will look like a P-51 sitting next to an F-18 when a 991 is adjacent.
But none of that really matters. We have transcended the era of speed or lap time being the primary determinant of driver enjoyment. We can make vehicles that operate and perform like military drones...and the operators will have similar disengagement from their capabilities. The full paradigm shift to the "digital" driving experience is rapidly approaching if not upon us.
The 4.0 is the last and the greatest of the greatest generation. I have seen the future....and it is not as great as I had hoped. And that is why a 4.0 is so expensive now, and probably will be for the foreseeable future.
12-18-2013, 02:09 AM
#2
Nicely said.
I haven't had the luxury of having driven all the cars you have driven, but I did have to recently purchase a daily driver and the era of manual, rear wheel drive, naturally aspirated car is simply over. I think the only thing still available is the Gallardo LP-550-2 with stick. Otherwise, it is game over.
I haven't had the luxury of having driven all the cars you have driven, but I did have to recently purchase a daily driver and the era of manual, rear wheel drive, naturally aspirated car is simply over. I think the only thing still available is the Gallardo LP-550-2 with stick. Otherwise, it is game over.
12-18-2013, 02:52 AM
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well put.
now, should i buy the zero option 4.0 on classified so the other one wont be so lonely?
now, should i buy the zero option 4.0 on classified so the other one wont be so lonely?
12-18-2013, 07:36 AM
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I just read the thread questioning the high price of the 4.0 and I have been thinking about what Porsches I have driven in the past week. They include a new 991 Cup, a 997 Cup, a 997 GT2 RS, a 997 GT3 RS 4.0 and a 73 RS with a 3.3 liter motor that is making 108 HP/liter on pump gas. With the exception of the Carrera GT and a few other rare 964s and 993s, I have had the privilege of experiencing some of the best cars Weissach has produced over the past few decades on a more or less back to back basis in under 7 days. (And I have driven most of the others in the more distant past)
The 991 Cup is probably the car that had me scratching my head the most and catalyzed my thinking on this topic. Here is a purpose built race car, Mezger engined, quicker than its predecessor, and still lacking the basic modern nanny technologies (traction control, ABS, etc).....yet it lacked something from a drivers perspective. The GT2 RS, blindingly fast, incredibly tractable and seemingly perfect.....but it didn't talk to me quite like I expected it to. It seemed almost too refined. The 73.... brutal, ancient, overpowered, under braked, under tired and a lovely Frankenstein power to weight ratio that was downright frightening. The 997 Cup....very connected and visceral, fighting to overcome its inherent limitations.
Yet, among these giants, I come back to the 4.0. It is the car. My experience in the new 991 cup convinced me. Yes, the 991 GT3 will be faster, just like the 991 cup is. Yes, it will be more evolved and refined. Yes, the 997 will look like a P-51 sitting next to an F-18 when a 991 is adjacent.
But none of that really matters. We have transcended the era of speed or lap time being the primary determinant of driver enjoyment. We can make vehicles that operate and perform like military drones...and the operators will have similar disengagement from their capabilities. The full paradigm shift to the "digital" driving experience is rapidly approaching if not upon us.
The 4.0 is the last and the greatest of the greatest generation. I have seen the future....and it is not as great as I had hoped. And that is why a 4.0 is so expensive now, and probably will be for the foreseeable future.
The 991 Cup is probably the car that had me scratching my head the most and catalyzed my thinking on this topic. Here is a purpose built race car, Mezger engined, quicker than its predecessor, and still lacking the basic modern nanny technologies (traction control, ABS, etc).....yet it lacked something from a drivers perspective. The GT2 RS, blindingly fast, incredibly tractable and seemingly perfect.....but it didn't talk to me quite like I expected it to. It seemed almost too refined. The 73.... brutal, ancient, overpowered, under braked, under tired and a lovely Frankenstein power to weight ratio that was downright frightening. The 997 Cup....very connected and visceral, fighting to overcome its inherent limitations.
Yet, among these giants, I come back to the 4.0. It is the car. My experience in the new 991 cup convinced me. Yes, the 991 GT3 will be faster, just like the 991 cup is. Yes, it will be more evolved and refined. Yes, the 997 will look like a P-51 sitting next to an F-18 when a 991 is adjacent.
But none of that really matters. We have transcended the era of speed or lap time being the primary determinant of driver enjoyment. We can make vehicles that operate and perform like military drones...and the operators will have similar disengagement from their capabilities. The full paradigm shift to the "digital" driving experience is rapidly approaching if not upon us.
The 4.0 is the last and the greatest of the greatest generation. I have seen the future....and it is not as great as I had hoped. And that is why a 4.0 is so expensive now, and probably will be for the foreseeable future.
Thank you for this analysis..its exactly my opinion as well, although I have very limited experience with CUP cars - a few observations:
1) Im a bit surprised when you talk about the GT2RS..."doesnt communicate enough"..- well probably less then a 4.0 or a CUP...- but still in the end 4.0 and GT2RS are very similar cars, besides the engine they are almost the same.
2) remember what I told you abou the 991 CUP before you drove the 991 CUP, again, I cannot judge this as I havent driven the 991 CUP, but I do know 2 people that drove 997´+ 991 CUP - and they said exactly the same as you did.
3) Probably the only thing youre missing in your experience would be the C-GT, go out there, drive one and please report back
..I suspect you would rate it as Nr1..but this is just a "guess" from me now..4) Otherwise, you have a perfect collection, keep every single car that you have - this would be my advice and Im sure in 5-10 years were talking about a + 1"million dollar collection" in your garage. In fact I´m sometimes thinking that even the 997 CUP (the last ones) will be one day also thought after, they are still technically less complex then the 991 CUP, cheaper to maintain, offer according to various sources a more "classic 911 driver experience"..and arent that much slower either. Besides, I really like the 997.2 CUP "looks"..the new 991 CUP looks too much for me like "kit car" from the front...
Anyway, thanks for your words and great picture in your avatar..
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12-18-2013, 07:41 AM
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Nicely said.
I haven't had the luxury of having driven all the cars you have driven, but I did have to recently purchase a daily driver and the era of manual, rear wheel drive, naturally aspirated car is simply over. I think the only thing still available is the Gallardo LP-550-2 with stick. Otherwise, it is game over.
I haven't had the luxury of having driven all the cars you have driven, but I did have to recently purchase a daily driver and the era of manual, rear wheel drive, naturally aspirated car is simply over. I think the only thing still available is the Gallardo LP-550-2 with stick. Otherwise, it is game over.
.maybe we should also add the Gallardo one day..- its the only "non classic/modern Porsche" that interests me..all the rest: NO.Will be interesting to see if Lambo keeps the new Gallardo as "simple as possible"..yes it will have no stick...but the rest seems quite OK..but we have to wait a few more weeks to know its details...
12-18-2013, 09:37 AM
#9
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As an aircraft fan I especially enjoyed Polesitter's P-51/F-18 comparison although the visual cues of the 991 as compared to a 997 GT3 aren't nearly as disparate as those two winged wonders.
If a P-51 and a F-18 were parked next to each other at an air show, the Mustang would almost certainly attract a larger crowd and it would be the one that most pilots would want to own and fly.
Unless "lap times" are the priority.
If a P-51 and a F-18 were parked next to each other at an air show, the Mustang would almost certainly attract a larger crowd and it would be the one that most pilots would want to own and fly.
Unless "lap times" are the priority.
12-18-2013, 11:39 AM
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12-18-2013, 12:06 PM
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But none of that really matters. We have transcended the era of speed or lap time being the primary determinant of driver enjoyment. We can make vehicles that operate and perform like military drones...and the operators will have similar disengagement from their capabilities. The full paradigm shift to the "digital" driving experience is rapidly approaching if not upon us.
P.S. Happy to take the 991 Cup off your hands when you get sick of it
12-18-2013, 12:14 PM
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I'm sure the 991 GT3 will be a faster car than almost every version of the 997 GT3. From an engineering point of view there's no doubt that it's a much more sophisticated platform. The challenge I have with the 991 GT3 is the philosophical shift from pure drivers car to something else. I know a PDK is faster but I like shifting, I know the clutch is heavy but I know why it's heavy, I know if I don't set the car up for a corner I will get under steer, I know if I get a corner wrong on exit ill probably get oversteer. At the end of the day the 997 GT3 is a much simpler tool. If the driver gets it right it rewards, if the driver gets it wrong it punishes. In a couple of months we will find out just how much faster the 991 GT3 will be however, I think history will mark the 997 GT3 as one of the greatest driving 911s ever made.
12-18-2013, 12:38 PM
#13
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Nice review Polesitter. I still think that the 997 GT3 RS 4.0 and the Carrera GT are the most exciting and visceral cars Porsche has produced. They are the greatest of the greatest and the last of an era. Values of both of these vehicles will only go up as the new crop of digital numb cars come out. Driving enthusiast will get bored with them quickly and will start looking for something else. I'm starting to see this happening on other Car forums.
12-18-2013, 12:55 PM
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I just read the thread questioning the high price of the 4.0 and I have been thinking about what Porsches I have driven in the past week. They include a new 991 Cup, a 997 Cup, a 997 GT2 RS, a 997 GT3 RS 4.0 and a 73 RS with a 3.3 liter motor that is making 108 HP/liter on pump gas. With the exception of the Carrera GT and a few other rare 964s and 993s, I have had the privilege of experiencing some of the best cars Weissach has produced over the past few decades on a more or less back to back basis in under 7 days. (And I have driven most of the others in the more distant past)
The 991 Cup is probably the car that had me scratching my head the most and catalyzed my thinking on this topic. Here is a purpose built race car, Mezger engined, quicker than its predecessor, and still lacking the basic modern nanny technologies (traction control, ABS, etc).....yet it lacked something from a drivers perspective. The GT2 RS, blindingly fast, incredibly tractable and seemingly perfect.....but it didn't talk to me quite like I expected it to. It seemed almost too refined. The 73.... brutal, ancient, overpowered, under braked, under tired and a lovely Frankenstein power to weight ratio that was downright frightening. The 997 Cup....very connected and visceral, fighting to overcome its inherent limitations.
Yet, among these giants, I come back to the 4.0. It is the car. My experience in the new 991 cup convinced me. Yes, the 991 GT3 will be faster, just like the 991 cup is. Yes, it will be more evolved and refined. Yes, the 997 will look like a P-51 sitting next to an F-18 when a 991 is adjacent.
But none of that really matters. We have transcended the era of speed or lap time being the primary determinant of driver enjoyment. We can make vehicles that operate and perform like military drones...and the operators will have similar disengagement from their capabilities. The full paradigm shift to the "digital" driving experience is rapidly approaching if not upon us.
The 4.0 is the last and the greatest of the greatest generation. I have seen the future....and it is not as great as I had hoped. And that is why a 4.0 is so expensive now, and probably will be for the foreseeable future.
The 991 Cup is probably the car that had me scratching my head the most and catalyzed my thinking on this topic. Here is a purpose built race car, Mezger engined, quicker than its predecessor, and still lacking the basic modern nanny technologies (traction control, ABS, etc).....yet it lacked something from a drivers perspective. The GT2 RS, blindingly fast, incredibly tractable and seemingly perfect.....but it didn't talk to me quite like I expected it to. It seemed almost too refined. The 73.... brutal, ancient, overpowered, under braked, under tired and a lovely Frankenstein power to weight ratio that was downright frightening. The 997 Cup....very connected and visceral, fighting to overcome its inherent limitations.
Yet, among these giants, I come back to the 4.0. It is the car. My experience in the new 991 cup convinced me. Yes, the 991 GT3 will be faster, just like the 991 cup is. Yes, it will be more evolved and refined. Yes, the 997 will look like a P-51 sitting next to an F-18 when a 991 is adjacent.
But none of that really matters. We have transcended the era of speed or lap time being the primary determinant of driver enjoyment. We can make vehicles that operate and perform like military drones...and the operators will have similar disengagement from their capabilities. The full paradigm shift to the "digital" driving experience is rapidly approaching if not upon us.
The 4.0 is the last and the greatest of the greatest generation. I have seen the future....and it is not as great as I had hoped. And that is why a 4.0 is so expensive now, and probably will be for the foreseeable future.
12-18-2013, 02:57 PM
#15
Drifting
Thank you Polesitter. Very good review. To me CGT + 4.0 + gt2rs = even combo
This past weekend I went for about 200 mile loop in my 3. I had a friend whom has owned a very nicely modded 79 SC. Before we meet i have been revving about the 3 feeling like his old 79 sc but with modern speed and power. How its a pure drivers car. Sensational. My turbo was awesome but it didnt spark the senses' like an old 911 the way a 3 does. I believe most of it has to do with the rear engine rear will drive factory configuration- no bushings in subframes.
Anyways... we stopped at Alices to have lunch- and he was loving every moment we switches and i let him drive the car- he was in love with the car- and of course so em i.
We then touched on the subject of the 991 GT3. We both agreed it looks hot. We both agreed it is stupid fast.
So we said what is wrong with it ? and i explained it like this. This is NOT PG13 so beware.!
You know when you are in the mood for having sex? You really want to have some passionate sex... you have to build up to it. You don't just take off your clothes and jump to the business. Its not as good for your or her. You have to work your move- get her in the grove to want it really bad- and when you to get in that grove - you get in the zone- you work hard to get into that zone and its amazing sex.
Then you have the 5 minute quicky. This one is fast- gets out of your system- you reach the same conclusion but in a different way. Satisfying for you- maybe not for her. Nothing great- not to bad.
So why have passionate sex? Well it sparks the sense's. It makes 2 bodies into 1. Its awesome when you are in the same wavelength during passionate sex. Its exciting! A quicky- you don't get the time to get on the same wavelength..
Sure it takes longer. Sure it is slower. Sure it requires more energy. Sure it requires more of my and her input. But for whatever reason- it is just better.
Sometimes doing more is better. Sometimes slower is better.
I like getting in the zone with my car's and getting that 1 body feeling when doing everything perfect...its absolutely fantastic.
I can articulate better some other time when i'm not at work--but you guys get my point of view why the manual is more to me.
This past weekend I went for about 200 mile loop in my 3. I had a friend whom has owned a very nicely modded 79 SC. Before we meet i have been revving about the 3 feeling like his old 79 sc but with modern speed and power. How its a pure drivers car. Sensational. My turbo was awesome but it didnt spark the senses' like an old 911 the way a 3 does. I believe most of it has to do with the rear engine rear will drive factory configuration- no bushings in subframes.
Anyways... we stopped at Alices to have lunch- and he was loving every moment we switches and i let him drive the car- he was in love with the car- and of course so em i.
We then touched on the subject of the 991 GT3. We both agreed it looks hot. We both agreed it is stupid fast.
So we said what is wrong with it ? and i explained it like this. This is NOT PG13 so beware.!
You know when you are in the mood for having sex? You really want to have some passionate sex... you have to build up to it. You don't just take off your clothes and jump to the business. Its not as good for your or her. You have to work your move- get her in the grove to want it really bad- and when you to get in that grove - you get in the zone- you work hard to get into that zone and its amazing sex.
Then you have the 5 minute quicky. This one is fast- gets out of your system- you reach the same conclusion but in a different way. Satisfying for you- maybe not for her. Nothing great- not to bad.
So why have passionate sex? Well it sparks the sense's. It makes 2 bodies into 1. Its awesome when you are in the same wavelength during passionate sex. Its exciting! A quicky- you don't get the time to get on the same wavelength..
Sure it takes longer. Sure it is slower. Sure it requires more energy. Sure it requires more of my and her input. But for whatever reason- it is just better.
Sometimes doing more is better. Sometimes slower is better.
I like getting in the zone with my car's and getting that 1 body feeling when doing everything perfect...its absolutely fantastic.
I can articulate better some other time when i'm not at work--but you guys get my point of view why the manual is more to me.