Mezger/Cup update
08-10-2013, 08:45 PM
#16
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991 GT3 Cup sticking with Mezger is not new news. Been posting this for months.
Virtually certain 991 GT3 RS will not use Mezger.
Fanboys over on the 991 GT3 forum can stomp their feet and scream all they want but the Cup and street GT3 have parted ways fundamentally with the intro of the 991 platform.
Virtually certain 991 GT3 RS will not use Mezger.
Fanboys over on the 991 GT3 forum can stomp their feet and scream all they want but the Cup and street GT3 have parted ways fundamentally with the intro of the 991 platform.
08-10-2013, 09:38 PM
#18
I thought the cup is now also on totally different front suspension (double wish) and based on a different tub? What else is there that's in common that matters? It's like the M3 ALMS racecar vs. E9X M3. Zero in common but the name and a customer base that can't know or tell the difference.
08-11-2013, 12:58 AM
#20
08-11-2013, 07:12 AM
#21
Correct. The more relevant detail is confirmation that this ain't changing, probably until 2015. Which I have been saying for months.
08-11-2013, 05:32 PM
#22
Instructor
WRT what should replace the Metzger... Something like this would be nice; Doubt if they could make it fit in the back of a 911 though..
08-12-2013, 12:00 AM
#23
Burning Brakes
I can only tell you guys with confidence about the race cars. That comes from the horse's mouth. My thinking on the 991 RS is speculative.
The challenges Porsche has at Grand Am aren't really engine related. In Grand Am's efforts to enable more manufacturers to become competitive they have allowed more and more accommodations to the point that most of what you see on the track in the GT class there bear no resemblance to the street car. Porsche and Ferrari are the only real exceptions. What started as modest changes to a cup car over time approached RSR spec race cars in order to keep up with Pratt & Miller purpose built race cars. In addition, the spec tire put Porsche at a big disadvantage because the weight distribution in competitive cars is vastly different (ie not 60/40).
Anyway, the good news is that ALMS operating personnel will have a high degree of input going forward in this class and I think the insanity will be reigned in. The full blown GT efforts will then migrate
The challenges Porsche has at Grand Am aren't really engine related. In Grand Am's efforts to enable more manufacturers to become competitive they have allowed more and more accommodations to the point that most of what you see on the track in the GT class there bear no resemblance to the street car. Porsche and Ferrari are the only real exceptions. What started as modest changes to a cup car over time approached RSR spec race cars in order to keep up with Pratt & Miller purpose built race cars. In addition, the spec tire put Porsche at a big disadvantage because the weight distribution in competitive cars is vastly different (ie not 60/40).
Anyway, the good news is that ALMS operating personnel will have a high degree of input going forward in this class and I think the insanity will be reigned in. The full blown GT efforts will then migrate
Looking at laps times throughout both races, the GT3's near the front in each group turned the following lap times:
GrandAM GT (Cup ver A) - 2:10.x
ALMS GT (RSR) - 2:06.x
ALMS GTC (Cup ver B) - 2:13.x
So it seems there's quite a difference between the GrandAm Cups and the ALMS Cups
08-12-2013, 12:10 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
It's technically doable, but I don't think Porsche has any interest in sinking R&D $ into the development of a DFI system for the Mezger, an engine which AP flatly stated in his EVO interview is too expensive to keep using in a low volume road car such as the GT3. To go through a big development exercise just for the race cars also wouldn't make sense financially, unless Porsche intended to keep the Mezger as its motorsports workhorse for many years into the future, which I also don't think is the case. As much as I love the Mezger, it is getting a bit long in the tooth, while the competition is moving forward with whole new designs that go beyond just DFI.
08-12-2013, 12:48 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
^ I agree. There are two separate issues here:
1. The Mezger is getting long in the tooth and needs a replacement. Sea changes in GT regs (both ACO and stateside) probably has PAG's GT R&D dialed back. On top of that, the LMP1 effort in 2014 is good marketing as is. VW is a commercial entity and not gonna pour capital down the drain unless it serves a good return.
2. The 9A1 is not the engine that will see motorsport use. Case closed in my book. Accept that, or move on and buy something else. This is PAG's gambit: just how many buyers of the 4,000+ GT3 and 2,000 RS'es globally (my guesstimate per generation) ACTUALLY KNOW and CARE about the engine's provenance? It may be a stonking good engine but it simply won't be raced in 911s in the foreseeable future (let's not count the skunkworks jobs where privateers dropped 9A1s into the Daytona GX class...)
I don't know better and state this as a matter of commercial logic: 5+ years into the 9A1's cycle the block's still nowhere near any official race program. That's enough to tell me that it won't be raced. The motorsport engine of the post-Mezger GT era (say 2015+?) will just have something else.
Porsche wants you to forget about these "ties" to its GT program. Heck it's already planted blatant hints into the media's mouth (CH: "you'll forget the Mezger even existed", similar tones from that bloke at Autocar)... what more do you expect them to say? "Buy my cars that look like racecars but have nothing in common beyond the skin, coz lineage doesn't come with a manufacturing cost and gives us great margins esp. when we sell it to you bozos in China and RoW"???
1. The Mezger is getting long in the tooth and needs a replacement. Sea changes in GT regs (both ACO and stateside) probably has PAG's GT R&D dialed back. On top of that, the LMP1 effort in 2014 is good marketing as is. VW is a commercial entity and not gonna pour capital down the drain unless it serves a good return.
2. The 9A1 is not the engine that will see motorsport use. Case closed in my book. Accept that, or move on and buy something else. This is PAG's gambit: just how many buyers of the 4,000+ GT3 and 2,000 RS'es globally (my guesstimate per generation) ACTUALLY KNOW and CARE about the engine's provenance? It may be a stonking good engine but it simply won't be raced in 911s in the foreseeable future (let's not count the skunkworks jobs where privateers dropped 9A1s into the Daytona GX class...)
I don't know better and state this as a matter of commercial logic: 5+ years into the 9A1's cycle the block's still nowhere near any official race program. That's enough to tell me that it won't be raced. The motorsport engine of the post-Mezger GT era (say 2015+?) will just have something else.
Porsche wants you to forget about these "ties" to its GT program. Heck it's already planted blatant hints into the media's mouth (CH: "you'll forget the Mezger even existed", similar tones from that bloke at Autocar)... what more do you expect them to say? "Buy my cars that look like racecars but have nothing in common beyond the skin, coz lineage doesn't come with a manufacturing cost and gives us great margins esp. when we sell it to you bozos in China and RoW"???
08-12-2013, 02:09 AM
#26
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Relative to your comments above (with which I agree 100%), GrandAm and ALMS ran back-to-back races at Road America this past weekend. Same track, many of the same drivers competing in both series, one day apart, but Cups (version A) in GrandAm GT, RSR in ALMS GT and Cups (version B) in ALMS GTC.
Looking at laps times throughout both races, the GT3's near the front in each group turned the following lap times:
GrandAM GT (Cup ver A) - 2:10.x
ALMS GT (RSR) - 2:06.x
ALMS GTC (Cup ver B) - 2:13.x
So it seems there's quite a difference between the GrandAm Cups and the ALMS Cups
Looking at laps times throughout both races, the GT3's near the front in each group turned the following lap times:
GrandAM GT (Cup ver A) - 2:10.x
ALMS GT (RSR) - 2:06.x
ALMS GTC (Cup ver B) - 2:13.x
So it seems there's quite a difference between the GrandAm Cups and the ALMS Cups
08-12-2013, 03:57 AM
#28
For those of you who are interested, as suspected the 991 cup will continue with a Mezger not only this coming year, but at least one year following but probably two. In addition, the "GT American" car (this is essentially a combination of ALMS GTC and Rolex GT) will run a 4.0 liter Mezger.
Bottom line: you won't see a 9A1 in a spec race car for several years.
I also doubt the Mezger will be in the 991 RS. The direct link between race engine and street engine will be no longer from what I can tell.
Bottom line: you won't see a 9A1 in a spec race car for several years.
I also doubt the Mezger will be in the 991 RS. The direct link between race engine and street engine will be no longer from what I can tell.
For those commenting about the age of the Mezger, keep in mind that the 9A1 is entering its 6th year of production in a street car (still at 0 years in race cars), or over half its service life. I suspect Porsche will stick with the Mezger for 4 more years until the 9A1 replacement and then decide if the new engine is more track capable than the old one.
08-12-2013, 12:45 PM
#29
Nordschleife Master
Brumos exited the series because they realized that they were no longer competitive under the current rules package and there is no telling what the Grand-Am/ALMS marriage will bring aside from a confusing plethora of classes. I applaud Brumos for their decision and hope circumstances allow their return eventually.
Let's not forget who leads the team and driver standing in GT in GA. It's Potter and Lally with Magnus.
The only place FIA matters is with the RSR really. There is the GT3 class of racing in certain countries/series, but that's a drop in the bucket for Porsche Motorsports and I suspect they'll just keeping running the GT3R there until the FIA figures out their new rules.
08-12-2013, 02:49 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
My understanding of the situation is a little different. My understanding is that they left because of money. Just like the Lizards in ALMS, they stopped being a defacto factory team and were no longer getting direct financial support from PMNA. At the end, they went so far as to run a full page Sunday ad in the New York Times pleading for sponsors so that they didn't have to leave the series. It was money more than competitiveness.
Let's not forget who leads the team and driver standing in GT in GA. It's Potter and Lally with Magnus.
Let's not forget who leads the team and driver standing in GT in GA. It's Potter and Lally with Magnus.
"It is not the end of the era, but a little break," retired veteran Brumos racer and race team coach Hurley Haywood said. "We are not stopping. We are just taking a little breather and see how things shake out and if it looks like it is advantageous to come back, we will."
"We finally got tired of being shoved around and taken for granted. This departure will hopefully open some eyes up that we need to do some adjustments"
Haywood says "The playing field is "just too lopsided" with a growing GT field. And so far, Grand-Am isn’t granting any rules changes to make Porsches more competitive against the new Ferrari 458 Italia-, Audi R8- and Chevrolet Camaro-based race cars."
"We are certainly looking for a sponsor and we thought we had and still do have some pretty strong ties for sponsors going forward," Haywood said. "I would hate to have a sponsor involved and not be able to produce for them. Porsche is not in a position to defend against the Ferrari, Audi and Chevrolet."
The Magnus Racing GT3 has not won a race so far this season. They are leading the series due to consistent top 5 finishes.