.2 GT3 RS - Understeer
08-07-2013, 03:00 AM
#31
Three Wheelin'
I have 40/60 guard setup. It isn't as aggressive at the cup ramp setting. I will adjust front sway from from one hole from outside to middle hole.
Tires r888 in 18s 245/305
Alignment
F= -2.0, 0 toe
R= -1.8 Toe In 2mm
Stock height, stock suspension stuff except with Rss toe link w lock plate.
Forget corner balance # but near 50/50
Im a novice. I'm learning the car and feeling the car more every track event.
Only thing I feel is that. Steering input/response has some delay entering corner. I'm trying to not change anything and keep driving the car as is.
Tons of info I got from this thread. Bottomeline.. Fight through and learn to control and feel the car more than trying to make this tail happy car more rotation happy when I don't have the skill to control it mid corner.
Thanks for the info
Tires r888 in 18s 245/305
Alignment
F= -2.0, 0 toe
R= -1.8 Toe In 2mm
Stock height, stock suspension stuff except with Rss toe link w lock plate.
Forget corner balance # but near 50/50
Im a novice. I'm learning the car and feeling the car more every track event.
Only thing I feel is that. Steering input/response has some delay entering corner. I'm trying to not change anything and keep driving the car as is.
Tons of info I got from this thread. Bottomeline.. Fight through and learn to control and feel the car more than trying to make this tail happy car more rotation happy when I don't have the skill to control it mid corner.
Thanks for the info
08-16-2013, 09:17 AM
#32
10 GT3,
Can you post a photo of the bush you are talking about?
I am guessing the inner bush with the eccentric washer/adjuster?
Did you do front and rear?
Cheers
Jay
Can you post a photo of the bush you are talking about?
I am guessing the inner bush with the eccentric washer/adjuster?
Did you do front and rear?
Cheers
Jay
Even going full soft front and full hard rear on the sway bars, you won't get rid of it. The suspension geometry needs to be fixed. You need to find someone who knows how to setup these cars. They basically need to remove the lower control arms and re-clock the center bushings to fix the geometry. I did 3 different alignments on mine before having it done. I could not get it to turn in sharp or get rid of the understeer regardless of alignment, sway bar or tire pressure settings. After getting the geometry fixed, car turns in sharp and is dead neutral with both sway bars in center position. I even run .2 less camber in front and .3 less camber out back, yet it laps over 5 seconds faster at the track. The problem is Porsche setup these cars too conservative from the factory.
08-16-2013, 12:55 PM
#33
Thanks for such an informative post, its exactly the advice us young 'uns need to listen to. Just one thing I don't understand re your statement around been aggressive. If I mash the throttle post apex, I just get the front end washing out. Is there a point beyond this where the front end hooks up and the back end starts getting lose?? Hope my question is clear? I'm not sure how being aggressive prevents understeer post apex!
If you just 'mash' the throttle with the alignment setup as delivered from the factory on an MK1 it will indeed just lift the front nose and you will push through the corner post apex.
A pro level driver could drive around this type of setup by being 'more aggressive' coming into the corner using more speed and more trail braking to get more rotation coming into the corner and this high level skilled driver would release the brakes in a way and apply the initial throttle in a way to NOT lift that front end but because they came in HOT and rotated the car (more than you) they could, after an initial smooth application of the throttle to settle the car, then be very, very aggressive with the throttle using the throttle to generate more grip so as to achieve higher corner speeds that someone with less experience would believe possible - it really has to be felt inside the car to believed what a pro can do - it feels very aggressive, yet smooth, but aggressive.
All the above being said, these cars are very sensitive to alignments, sway bar settings, tire pressures, etc and getting the car setup 'in the zone' for your skill level is critical. I personally believe the mk1 rear sway needs changed to the gt2 bar (others do as well) - but others are very happy with the OE bar having made other changes to the car.
Mashing the throttle post apex isn't necessarily an 'aggressive' thing to do if the car isn't setup to do it (by the driver in the car and the alignment guy) and if you haven't smoothly let the nose set and be ready for the throttle then it isn't aggressive at all it is just a crude application of the throttle when fines has been called for.
My advise is to seek out rides, and as many as you can, with anyone who is fast at driving a gt3 - it is near impossible to describe it with words you have to feel it from inside the car.
08-18-2013, 02:44 PM
#34
It is a really good question.
If you just 'mash' the throttle with the alignment setup as delivered from the factory on an MK1 it will indeed just lift the front nose and you will push through the corner post apex.
A pro level driver could drive around this type of setup by being 'more aggressive' coming into the corner using more speed and more trail braking to get more rotation coming into the corner and this high level skilled driver would release the brakes in a way and apply the initial throttle in a way to NOT lift that front end but because they came in HOT and rotated the car (more than you) they could, after an initial smooth application of the throttle to settle the car, then be very, very aggressive with the throttle using the throttle to generate more grip so as to achieve higher corner speeds that someone with less experience would believe possible - it really has to be felt inside the car to believed what a pro can do - it feels very aggressive, yet smooth, but aggressive.
All the above being said, these cars are very sensitive to alignments, sway bar settings, tire pressures, etc and getting the car setup 'in the zone' for your skill level is critical. I personally believe the mk1 rear sway needs changed to the gt2 bar (others do as well) - but others are very happy with the OE bar having made other changes to the car.
Mashing the throttle post apex isn't necessarily an 'aggressive' thing to do if the car isn't setup to do it (by the driver in the car and the alignment guy) and if you haven't smoothly let the nose set and be ready for the throttle then it isn't aggressive at all it is just a crude application of the throttle when fines has been called for.
My advise is to seek out rides, and as many as you can, with anyone who is fast at driving a gt3 - it is near impossible to describe it with words you have to feel it from inside the car.
If you just 'mash' the throttle with the alignment setup as delivered from the factory on an MK1 it will indeed just lift the front nose and you will push through the corner post apex.
A pro level driver could drive around this type of setup by being 'more aggressive' coming into the corner using more speed and more trail braking to get more rotation coming into the corner and this high level skilled driver would release the brakes in a way and apply the initial throttle in a way to NOT lift that front end but because they came in HOT and rotated the car (more than you) they could, after an initial smooth application of the throttle to settle the car, then be very, very aggressive with the throttle using the throttle to generate more grip so as to achieve higher corner speeds that someone with less experience would believe possible - it really has to be felt inside the car to believed what a pro can do - it feels very aggressive, yet smooth, but aggressive.
All the above being said, these cars are very sensitive to alignments, sway bar settings, tire pressures, etc and getting the car setup 'in the zone' for your skill level is critical. I personally believe the mk1 rear sway needs changed to the gt2 bar (others do as well) - but others are very happy with the OE bar having made other changes to the car.
Mashing the throttle post apex isn't necessarily an 'aggressive' thing to do if the car isn't setup to do it (by the driver in the car and the alignment guy) and if you haven't smoothly let the nose set and be ready for the throttle then it isn't aggressive at all it is just a crude application of the throttle when fines has been called for.
My advise is to seek out rides, and as many as you can, with anyone who is fast at driving a gt3 - it is near impossible to describe it with words you have to feel it from inside the car.
Thanks for the above, its now beginning to make sense to me. Being based in the ME, any form of mod would jeopardise the OEM warranty so sway bars will remain standard for now. I need to go out and find me some adept drivers now, that might prove to be rather challenging.
09-21-2013, 08:56 PM
#35
Bushing rotation changes more than caster. Remember that the track arm mounts to the bushing, so changing the rotation changes the entire front geometry. Whenever I see someone complaining about front bite and having their track arm mounted on the center hole in the control arm, you can see the issue immediately. After having the changes to the bushings made, I lost caster (.5 degree) and and gained some camber (.2 degree) with the changes, yet turn-in was incredibly sharpened and front bite improved dramatically. With similar changes to the rear, the rear tracked a lot better and balance shifted from understeer to slightly loose, hence I adjusted my sway bars at the track to get the car back to neutral (my preferred balance). Having this done is a tremendous difference if feel, turn-in and bite of front and and much smooth tracking on power coming out of corners. Tire wear improved dramatically getting at least 20% longer wear out of a set of tires at the track as the tires can work more effectively. Alignment settings are really irrelevant until you have this change done.
My current alignment settings are:
Front camber -3.0 (was -2.8 before bushing rotation)
Front caster 7.5 degrees (was 8.0 before bushing rotation)
Front toe -.01
Rear camber -1.6 (was -1.8 before and after rotation, but I had it reduced when the CL recall was performed to improve rear tirewear)
Rear toe .14
Again, these settings are not so important until after getting the control arm bushing rotation change done. I will comment that -2.4 rear camber is really high. Rule of thumb is the more power, the less rear camber to keep more of the tire even with the road surface when exiting a corner. Remember as cornering G's diminish the tires putting power to the surface need to be flatter to the surface to put power down more effectively.
My current alignment settings are:
Front camber -3.0 (was -2.8 before bushing rotation)
Front caster 7.5 degrees (was 8.0 before bushing rotation)
Front toe -.01
Rear camber -1.6 (was -1.8 before and after rotation, but I had it reduced when the CL recall was performed to improve rear tirewear)
Rear toe .14
Again, these settings are not so important until after getting the control arm bushing rotation change done. I will comment that -2.4 rear camber is really high. Rule of thumb is the more power, the less rear camber to keep more of the tire even with the road surface when exiting a corner. Remember as cornering G's diminish the tires putting power to the surface need to be flatter to the surface to put power down more effectively.
Do you have any pictures you could post showing how yours are set and have any information you could share about how adjusting it affects the car.
I would be very greatfull if you could because I just keep getting told to keep the rears set in the centre but figured if I've got the adjustability I should make the most of it.
Thanks in advance
Neil
09-21-2013, 11:07 PM
#36
Clearly I am not driving mine to its potential. I seem to be able to do controlled slides and drift into sharp turns at will without any hint of understeer. When does this understeer really kick in?
