WanderingPurist

a car that's been tracked more "worn" than one that hasn't.

Hi,

Forgive a newbie and thanks in advance for your patience -

when looking at pre-owned listings, one frequently sees "never tracked" - got me thinking, and came to a head this past weekend after a spirited run on a "closed" public road run, thus technically not "tracked" but over 100 miles we did see speeds up to 160mph several times and average speed of 85mph with the tach regularly at 5k or more...we're talking smooth roods carved into and around hilly / mountainous terrain with lots of sweepers and doglegs, not to mention switchbacks - basically a road course that's 100 miles long.

:-)

so, when people think of "tracking" and thus its effects on vehicle value, maintenance schedules, condition, expected life of car, are they thinking of

paint swapping? aka touching / accidents?
regular and extended high revs? what are considered extended high revs?
engine loads and stresses?
tranni / diff wear, stresses?
brakes system stresses and wear?
suspension / chassis stresses and wear?

other?

Im less interested in the value POV (though curious about that too) more in the expected life and maintenance concerns -

if fluids changed appropriately and wear areas maintained correctly, will the power train, tranni, brakes, coolant last as reliably, even if ultimate mileage is shortened (accelerated wear rate)?

does this make any sense?

and most specifically, if I run that "100 mile long track" :-) regularly, should I switch to a track type fluids change schedule?

yesterday was problably 4500 - 7500 rpm engine range for the entire 100 mile run.



TIA!

CAlexio

Interesting question.. Looking forward to answers from the track junkies on here

aero997c2s

I'm sure when people hear/see a tracked car they immediately think of accelerated wear on major parts including brakes, suspension, motor. Personally I would rather buy a "tracked" car than one that spent the majority hiding in the garage or in traffic. Owners who regularly track their car pay very close attention to maintenance schedules and most clubs require a shop to run an inspection prior to events. I really think the people who are afraid of tracked cars are the ones who have never driven on track.

tcsracing1

Generally a tracked car is a car that has seen more wear and tear then a street car. They can be priced accordingly or hidden to the general public.

Tracked cars run hot and can see more obvious wear on the transmission,diff and exhaust.
They can also suffer from road rash of track debre etc. Stone chips etc.
Track cars also experience more frequent brake/tire changes which result in worn hardware and wheel mounting systems. (wheels get chipped, callipers bolts get weak, calliper rubber dust boots dry out, wheel studs or center locks get worn etc)
Track cars also see more over revs and perhaps too much depending on the owner.

Now, with that said a properly cared for track car can have little to no overrevs, proper hardware in place of worn hardware, clear bra, service records of multiple oil changes between track times, upgraded diff and clutch.
Cared for by an **** owner.

Im just as happy to by a tracked car from an **** owner as virgin car from a dealer.

My RS is 7 years old, tracked and shows wear and tear but mechanically it is maintained like an airplane. This is how somebody who intends on using the car for the same purpose should buy one. Otherwise look for a garage queen to remain a garage queen.

scott40

Agree with the above, but will add...Just because a car is not tracked doesn't mean it's a garage queen. The OP is driving his car in a spirited way on the street. Perfectly fine. I do not think this kind of street driving will ever equal the stresses put on a car that is tracked. Doubtful you are going to burn through pads, cord tires,boil brake fluid, or stress the engine or suspension the way you would on a track. So maintenance is different. I don't think you need track fluids for a street driven car. I agree with the statement that many who track their cars are or become **** about maintaining them.

WanderingPurist

Hi,

" Tracked cars run hot..."

yes, and I believe this is due to running the car closer to it's "max spec performance limits?"

ie, engines revved closer to redline and for longer periods and more frequently; brakes at lock up threshold (or ABS activated) more frequently; trannis at full load for longer sustained periods of time; more extreme and sustained compression and loads on the suspension components; etc.

yes?

If so, is it possible that the "road coarse" we did, over the period of c. 60 minutes, put the equivalent of one "track session?" Afterall, we were frequently at WOT; engine revved out and shifting c. 7k+; threshold braking; etc. The only area I think we were consistently "less than track loads" was perhaps on the suspension, since we didn't have the width or runoff like we would have on a track. And, of course, little things like wildlife and fallen rocks and tree branches...

If not, what aspects are so different?

" They can also suffer from road rash of track debre etc. Stone chips etc."

Yes, but so too on "roads."

:-)

" Track cars also experience more frequent brake/tire changes which result in worn hardware and wheel mounting systems. (wheels get chipped, callipers bolts get weak, calliper rubber dust boots dry out, wheel studs or center locks get worn etc)"

Ah, hadn't thought of these!!! Thanks!


" Track cars also see more over revs and perhaps too much depending on the owner."

Good point, I see how a "track environment" might encourage the situations where over revs are more likely, but any decent (or properly conservative driver who knows his limits) will likely not over rev (or build in enough buffer to not over rev...) on track or not.

" Now, with that said a properly cared for track car can have little to no overrevs, proper hardware in place of worn hardware, clear bra, service records of multiple oil changes between track times, upgraded diff and clutch.
Cared for by an **** owner. "

A good secondary point, and one which I wonder if is implicit in much of these discussions - the "profile" of the owner and what we might expect about them. That is, assuming the person tracking the car regularly

a. is experienced
b. is conscientious
c. cares (tech inspections and the tracking population also are self-enforcing in this regard)

then that person is likely

1. has more mechanical sympathy in operation and maintenance
2. is more diligent about that maintenance

Thanks for your comments and point of view!

WanderingPurist

Hi,

Without getting into hard core semantics, I see garage queens as, for example, 20 year old Ferraris with 2000 miles...basically, they just sit in the garage and hardly, if ever, driven, and even then only gingerly.

My cars are definitely not garage queens - they are regularly driven (as my time allows) and when driven, are driven spiritedly.

"I do not think this kind of street driving will ever equal the stresses put on a car that is tracked. Doubtful you are going to burn through pads, cord tires,boil brake fluid, or stress the engine or suspension the way you would on a track. So maintenance is different. I don't think you need track fluids for a street driven car."

And therein lies one of my real questions - what is the threshold, at what point, operationally, should one religiously observe "tracking" style maintenance schedules?

I know race cars have running times rigorously recorded - "5 hours on engine since rebuild", etc - but there seems to be much more fuzzy area on tracking (vs racing)

" I agree with the statement that many who track their cars are or become **** about maintaining them."

The personality "profile" makes perfect sense, though like everything else, I'd still do (some) due diligence.

For example, car and watch enthusiasts seem to love to buy from other "enthusiasts" but I also have come to realize that many such "fellow" enthusiasts are either lazier than we'd think, know less than they think they do (sin of omission or ignorance), or worst, are wolf in sheeps clothing - they are profiteers or lazy slobs who learn to talk the talk and enjoy the benefits of the lowered thresholds...

Thanks for your comments and point of view.

tcsracing1

On track would be different then on the road although your spirited road run was for sure a hot lap by the sound of it

On track you are sometimes 3 feet off the bumper in front you therefore track rash and stone chips can occur unless clear bra protected etc. Rubber stains and tar are always all over the car after a session and pain to remove unless proper cleaners are used.

On track the brakes are used a lot and hard. throw the anchor hard. I have seen cars come in with the brakes smoking and the rubber shards picked up off the track burning on the wheel spokes and dish. It is braking over and over again. Trail braking corners etc.

Over revs are not uncommon on the track because you sometimes cannot hear the engine with all the other cars around you and sometimes when trying to reel in a car out of a corner onto a straight one can focus too much on the car in front and not the RPM guage... This happens in 997.1 when behind 997.2
Mistaken downshifts can also occur....

The car is always in the powerband/upper rpm range which creates alot of heat. Exhaust and brakes are also working hard thus heat can really build up during a session.
2nd gear is as common as 4th. Over and over again. Car never has a chance to sit in one gear for longer then a few seconds. Heal-toe everywhere.

It is amazing how a GT3 street car can do it over and over again. Vey impressive now that i think about it.

DC640

+1 esp in stock form, it is very capable car in the hands of skilled driver. can't think of other manufacture that makes it track ready out of factory and then be able to drive to town w wife for dinner

Nick Wong

Acura Integra Type R. More than capable out of the box, track ready and arguably more streetable than any GT3. And it only cost $19K brand new 15 years ago. Those cars have won their fair share of pro races around the world.

DC640

Ahh. my favorite vtec family.. didn't only limited number come to US and only came in white/white wheel with red type r badge?

Nick Wong

First two years they were white. Years following they were available in yellow and black too, but not the white.

Unfortunately these things are super popular with car thieves too.

PelicanParts.com

People maintain their cars differently whether street-only or street and track. Tracked cars do wear faster than a street-only driven car - suspension bushings, pads/rotors & tires especially. But, if the owner is on top of these items as well as others and is proactive, a tracked car may be fine.

Abuse like excessive clutch wear and over-revs can take place on the street & track, right.

Mark/Pelican Parts

HarmonyJim

I have not tracked my 2007 RS at all, but I raced TZ250 Yamahas for years a couple decades ago and I can assure you nothing on the street, no matter how exciting it seems, comes close to the stresses put on a machine running competitively on the track. The speeds, the revs, the heat, and the violence involved make for two very different worlds. I agree with the earlier posts that speak of higher than usual levels of maintenance - you have no other choice but to stay on top of your vehicle if you are going to partake in track driving. Your *** and quite possibly your life literally depend on it.

BBMGT3

+1. Don't care how spirited your drive is. You are not anywhere near what you are doing on a racetrack

I like this expression. Maintained like an airplane. My gt3 looks rough sometimes - wheels dirty, front bumper covered in stone chips. But, put the car on a lift or start taking parts apart, and all you see is shiny, clean surfaces, super-maintained mechanicals, obsessive maintenance schedule. My 40K miles gt3 is probably in better mechanical condition than a 10K street-only car that follows the factory schedule only.