Center lock wheels on my 997.2 GT3
10-27-2012, 12:05 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
guys many of u are missing the pt
CL is fine
BUT there are time u need to
chg wheels in
10 min on trk, u
likely
make mistake on CL. harder to fk up five lugs.
take ur car to jiffy lube. they will fk up. Thales ur five lug there. less lowly fk up. so smaller fk up issue is better. I know how to do it right but there are time I can't do it myself. and many shop
inc dealers will get it wrong.
it's ur car do what u like why argue
I have a CL RS and a five lug RS. I'm faster chg lug wheels.
oh btw it's WAY more than 2000 to chg to five lugs.
CL is fine
BUT there are time u need to
chg wheels in
10 min on trk, u
likely
make mistake on CL. harder to fk up five lugs.
take ur car to jiffy lube. they will fk up. Thales ur five lug there. less lowly fk up. so smaller fk up issue is better. I know how to do it right but there are time I can't do it myself. and many shop
inc dealers will get it wrong.
it's ur car do what u like why argue
I have a CL RS and a five lug RS. I'm faster chg lug wheels.
oh btw it's WAY more than 2000 to chg to five lugs.
Gotta jack up the car regardless, putting brakes on takes 5 seconds and you do not need to grease every single time. How hard it it to pop out 4 locks, half the time they do it by themselves..
Rushing studs or bolts is more like to FK up torque or strip bolts, loose studs.. I love the solid fit, torqued right, locked no chance of something lose or stripped.
I had my fair share of stripped studs and broken studs, almost lost a wheel that way. No fun..way more wheels have fallen of 5 lug Porsches than CL Porsches the last 2 years, people just don't go cry about it because everyone knows it is operator failure..
10-27-2012, 12:12 AM
#32
GT3 player par excellence
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as u see on trk, MANY ppl fk up.
stud also fail. but u really have to fk
up in order to fk up
stud also fail. but u really have to fk
up in order to fk up
10-27-2012, 01:40 AM
#33
I've seen many stud issues and several stud failures that led to a wheel sheering off - it's not just center locks. Most recently, a friend of mine who is being watched over by angels apparently (velociraptor).....anyways, he was checking the torque on his wheels a few moons ago and one snapped off. I had enough spares for one axle, so he decided to change his out. In the process of removing, a couple others snapped...and I'm talking under very little torsional load. Similar thing happened to him with his track wheels - one failed (basically taco'd) and then discovered the other 3 were about ready to fail as well. These things are consumables....wheels, hubs, bearings, etc.
unfortunately with CLs, the cyclic loading is not directed at a $8 item, it's in a $800 (with install) item.
unfortunately with CLs, the cyclic loading is not directed at a $8 item, it's in a $800 (with install) item.
10-27-2012, 01:49 AM
#34
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i wasn't clr
they all will fail from use/fatigue. studs and bolts dont last forever, i replace all studs all wheel bearings every year.
the design is CL is not my criticism.
i am talking about user errors. those of use know the procedure can get it right. but let say, you HAVE to for some reason have AAA or jiffy lube or ding dong autocare, change your wheels....
you got CL, would you let them do it?
if you have five lug, you are more inclined to let them do it.
remember, you DONT have a choice to do it yourself, you MUST have above three shop perform the wheel change and you CANNOT provide them directions to them. i wont let them do CL, why? b/c they will fk up. the reason they fk up is b/c they dont know how to do it right. and just walk around the track. 50% of CL guys just dotn do it right.... and there are times i dont want to do my own wheels.... then someone will likely fk up FOR you.
if izzone is in CA, i would be on CL b/c he's gonna change them for me, i just pay him beer.
yes, youu can strip thread, over tighten lugs... BUT if you are that bad, you will for sure get CL wrong.
they all will fail from use/fatigue. studs and bolts dont last forever, i replace all studs all wheel bearings every year.
the design is CL is not my criticism.
i am talking about user errors. those of use know the procedure can get it right. but let say, you HAVE to for some reason have AAA or jiffy lube or ding dong autocare, change your wheels....
you got CL, would you let them do it?
if you have five lug, you are more inclined to let them do it.
remember, you DONT have a choice to do it yourself, you MUST have above three shop perform the wheel change and you CANNOT provide them directions to them. i wont let them do CL, why? b/c they will fk up. the reason they fk up is b/c they dont know how to do it right. and just walk around the track. 50% of CL guys just dotn do it right.... and there are times i dont want to do my own wheels.... then someone will likely fk up FOR you.
if izzone is in CA, i would be on CL b/c he's gonna change them for me, i just pay him beer.
yes, youu can strip thread, over tighten lugs... BUT if you are that bad, you will for sure get CL wrong.
10-27-2012, 01:52 AM
#35
i wasn't clr
they all will fail from use/fatigue. studs and bolts dont last forever, i replace all studs all wheel bearings every year.
the design is CL is not my criticism.
i am talking about user errors. those of use know the procedure can get it right. but let say, you HAVE to for some reason have AAA or jiffy lube or ding dong autocare, change your wheels....
you got CL, would you let them do it?
if you have five lug, you are more inclined to let them do it.
remember, you DONT have a choice to do it yourself, you MUST have above three shop perform the wheel change and you CANNOT provide them directions to them. i wont let them do CL, why? b/c they will fk up. the reason they fk up is b/c they dont know how to do it right. and just walk around the track. 50% of CL guys just dotn do it right.... and there are times i dont want to do my own wheels.... then someone will likely fk up FOR you.
if izzone is in CA, i would be on CL b/c he's gonna change them for me, i just pay him beer.
yes, youu can strip thread, over tighten lugs... BUT if you are that bad, you will for sure get CL wrong.
they all will fail from use/fatigue. studs and bolts dont last forever, i replace all studs all wheel bearings every year.
the design is CL is not my criticism.
i am talking about user errors. those of use know the procedure can get it right. but let say, you HAVE to for some reason have AAA or jiffy lube or ding dong autocare, change your wheels....
you got CL, would you let them do it?
if you have five lug, you are more inclined to let them do it.
remember, you DONT have a choice to do it yourself, you MUST have above three shop perform the wheel change and you CANNOT provide them directions to them. i wont let them do CL, why? b/c they will fk up. the reason they fk up is b/c they dont know how to do it right. and just walk around the track. 50% of CL guys just dotn do it right.... and there are times i dont want to do my own wheels.... then someone will likely fk up FOR you.
if izzone is in CA, i would be on CL b/c he's gonna change them for me, i just pay him beer.
yes, youu can strip thread, over tighten lugs... BUT if you are that bad, you will for sure get CL wrong.
10-27-2012, 01:55 AM
#36
GT3 player par excellence
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^
if your comment are meant to be hostile than you haven't witnessed shops f up ur friend's CL and drama unravel in front of you.
if your comment are not hostile, then you lost me. i apologize.
i been doing it a long time, i dont hurt myself, i see plenty of others do.
on the rs i work on myself, it's CL.
on the rs that i need occasional support, i use lugs.
if your comment are meant to be hostile than you haven't witnessed shops f up ur friend's CL and drama unravel in front of you.
if your comment are not hostile, then you lost me. i apologize.
i been doing it a long time, i dont hurt myself, i see plenty of others do.
on the rs i work on myself, it's CL.
on the rs that i need occasional support, i use lugs.
10-27-2012, 09:45 AM
#37
Race Director
Yes 5 lug parts are $2500, actually $2684 then you need a set of street wheels and tires and a set of track wheels and tires for your new 5 lug set up. Too bad OZ doesn't make a $2000 5 lug 9x18 12x18 set up. So you will have to go baller to get 5 lug track wheels around $3500-4000. When I added it all up I came to around $9000 NOT including street and track tires.
No one wants to buy a used center lock system. CL wheels on eBay can't even sell for $1000 so there really is not used parts to sell to help make up for the cost.
TRUST ME....I've tried and looked at doing this real hard. For the cost I'd rather buy a 5 lug Turbo PDK or just wait it out and see what Porsche does for the 991 GT3.
10-27-2012, 10:24 AM
#38
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I started this thread yesterday trying to get at the facts of CL failure. Initially, all of the posts focused on the CL Nut/locking mechanism. Although the mechanism is a bit more complicated to deal with, I'm very comfortable that if I personally maintain (according to the porsche bulletin), these locking nuts will not come loose, or cause the failure. My biggest concern is that the entire hub assembly itself is not designed/strong enough for track use. The most factual information I found was the info/quote from bpracing that I pasted on page 2 of this thread. So I guess my question now is, does anyone else have facts/occurrence/detail on the entire hub assembly failing? (my conclusion on the CL nut is that I'm writing criticism off to user error: 1) guys that don't want to take the time to understand the mechanism, 2) don't want to spend the additional money on tools that are absolutely required to do the work correctly, and/or 3) and I think this is the biggest potential problem..guys that change wheels at the track and don't take the time to go through the entire procedure properly..this is really easy to see happening..I could see myself potentially doing it..guys with CLs, let's help each other stay vigilant with our CLs when at the track.
So, does anyone else have any really good info/incidents of actual hub failure?
So, does anyone else have any really good info/incidents of actual hub failure?
10-27-2012, 10:59 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
Bono, the question you are asking can't be answered by anybody on any forum... Only Porsche know if their hubs are up to the task and they aren't answering anybody's questions. The facts to date are as follows:
- all failures with a documented cause by their owner to date have been due to one of two reasons; (i) over torquing (ii) incorrectly torqued leading to wear of the hub and failure. This accounts for less than 50% of cases posted...
- all remaining failures have been posted but no further info has subsequently been shared by the owner leading to speculation each time about the cause thus it is not determinable... Basically useless info as owners have failed to share the facts or findings by Porsche or an independant body surrounding the failure of their hubs...
- there are guys on this forum whom have executed wheel changes probably in the hundreds without a failure whilst following the procedure stipulated by Porsche that arguably dismisses Bpracing's view on the CLs and their inability to be used for competitive track use. Their failure to warrant work on CLs could be just as suggestive that they aren't 100% confident they can get it right. Alternatively, they don't want to take responsibility for a system that may have a flaw when the manufacturer won't step up with a clear and concise answer... Either way, they expressed THEIR opinion as a shop and are entitled to it...
- details or guidelines outlining when these hubs timeout are required but not available as Porsche has not stepped up with specific direction on this important issue.... More info required...
I'm afraid that beyond these few points, there a few other facts that you will be able to extract online...
Cheers
Chris
- all failures with a documented cause by their owner to date have been due to one of two reasons; (i) over torquing (ii) incorrectly torqued leading to wear of the hub and failure. This accounts for less than 50% of cases posted...
- all remaining failures have been posted but no further info has subsequently been shared by the owner leading to speculation each time about the cause thus it is not determinable... Basically useless info as owners have failed to share the facts or findings by Porsche or an independant body surrounding the failure of their hubs...
- there are guys on this forum whom have executed wheel changes probably in the hundreds without a failure whilst following the procedure stipulated by Porsche that arguably dismisses Bpracing's view on the CLs and their inability to be used for competitive track use. Their failure to warrant work on CLs could be just as suggestive that they aren't 100% confident they can get it right. Alternatively, they don't want to take responsibility for a system that may have a flaw when the manufacturer won't step up with a clear and concise answer... Either way, they expressed THEIR opinion as a shop and are entitled to it...
- details or guidelines outlining when these hubs timeout are required but not available as Porsche has not stepped up with specific direction on this important issue.... More info required...
I'm afraid that beyond these few points, there a few other facts that you will be able to extract online...
Cheers
Chris
Last edited by 911rox; 10-27-2012 at 11:14 AM.
10-27-2012, 11:30 AM
#40
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I know this is a 997.2 topic, but as we all know conversions for 5 lugs are an option just as studs/nuts are for 997.1.
For targa racing i use nuts/studs because of unscheduled tire changes in the middle of no where which happen more often then not and when you do not have a full crew and the clock is ticking between stages it is not the place to be messing around with a fragile center lock system....
Now, dont get me wrong. I love the concept as it is on CGT and Cup Cars (although they are not on grand-am cups). But for those of use who are pulling wheels on the clock during multiple events with our own tools im a little sketchy on the 997.2 center lock longevity and level of error tolerance....
One only has to look at what happens to our stock calliper hardwear after multiple pad change overs which also has us converting to calliper studs....
For hard track use it is almost like they are not "commercial" enough when compared to the 997.2 Cup system?
(Back in 1963 Chevrolet introduced knock off wheels/w lead hammer for the Corvette as an option and by the time 1965 rolled around the option was removed due to law suits etc as independants and dealers alike were installing them incorrectly thus causing complete failures.)
I carry 4 spare studs and nuts during enduring events for my RS. Have yet to need to replace any of them thus my 4 spares are paper weights.
And above all, who else can i thank but NJ-GT for entroducing me to nuts and studs.
For targa racing i use nuts/studs because of unscheduled tire changes in the middle of no where which happen more often then not and when you do not have a full crew and the clock is ticking between stages it is not the place to be messing around with a fragile center lock system....
Now, dont get me wrong. I love the concept as it is on CGT and Cup Cars (although they are not on grand-am cups). But for those of use who are pulling wheels on the clock during multiple events with our own tools im a little sketchy on the 997.2 center lock longevity and level of error tolerance....
One only has to look at what happens to our stock calliper hardwear after multiple pad change overs which also has us converting to calliper studs....
For hard track use it is almost like they are not "commercial" enough when compared to the 997.2 Cup system?
(Back in 1963 Chevrolet introduced knock off wheels/w lead hammer for the Corvette as an option and by the time 1965 rolled around the option was removed due to law suits etc as independants and dealers alike were installing them incorrectly thus causing complete failures.)
I carry 4 spare studs and nuts during enduring events for my RS. Have yet to need to replace any of them thus my 4 spares are paper weights.
And above all, who else can i thank but NJ-GT for entroducing me to nuts and studs.
Last edited by tcsracing1; 10-27-2012 at 02:25 PM.
10-27-2012, 12:00 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
There's a famous/notorious forum member on here who has the whole package to setup to convert at $2500 including labor. Not including wheels of course.
Aside from the obvious safety issues and potential to fawk up the complex series of steps need to take them off and put them on properly, the main reason I can't stand them is that I've now become the CL assistant bitch since I can do mine so quickly alone and I'm generally standing around watching the CL guys
You can't take them on or off without having someone sitting in the car, and holding the brake pedal like they're leg pressing 1000 pounds. Yeah, some say you can use that wheel pedal presser. Never seen that actually work out. Sometimes it's so bad getting them off we have to start the car and use the hydraulics to assist holding the brake while the person on the other end of the 4 foot long torque wrench is hanging off it trying to pop that 500 foot pounds loose.
It is what it is. If it comes on your car I guess you have to deal with it... When I get the 991 (10 years froms now based on my current finances) and if it comes with CL's, I will most certainly convert immediately. However, I can understand some people's predicaments who've already gone out and bought 2 extra sets of track wheels. That's a tough spot. However I can get three sets of 18" OZ's 5 lugs for same price as one set of gmg CL wheels. There's your street wheels and two extra sets for the track. Done and done
forum member on here who has the whole package to setup to convert at $2500 including labor. Not including wheels of course. Aside from the obvious safety issues and potential to fawk up the complex series of steps need to take them off and put them on properly, the main reason I can't stand them is that I've now become the CL assistant bitch since I can do mine so quickly alone and I'm generally standing around watching the CL guys
You can't take them on or off without having someone sitting in the car, and holding the brake pedal like they're leg pressing 1000 pounds. Yeah, some say you can use that wheel pedal presser. Never seen that actually work out. Sometimes it's so bad getting them off we have to start the car and use the hydraulics to assist holding the brake while the person on the other end of the 4 foot long torque wrench is hanging off it trying to pop that 500 foot pounds loose.
It is what it is. If it comes on your car I guess you have to deal with it... When I get the 991 (10 years froms now based on my current finances) and if it comes with CL's, I will most certainly convert immediately. However, I can understand some people's predicaments who've already gone out and bought 2 extra sets of track wheels. That's a tough spot. However I can get three sets of 18" OZ's 5 lugs for same price as one set of gmg CL wheels. There's your street wheels and two extra sets for the track. Done and done
10-27-2012, 12:02 PM
#42
^
if your comment are meant to be hostile than you haven't witnessed shops f up ur friend's CL and drama unravel in front of you.
if your comment are not hostile, then you lost me. i apologize.
i been doing it a long time, i dont hurt myself, i see plenty of others do.
on the rs i work on myself, it's CL.
on the rs that i need occasional support, i use lugs.
if your comment are meant to be hostile than you haven't witnessed shops f up ur friend's CL and drama unravel in front of you.
if your comment are not hostile, then you lost me. i apologize.
i been doing it a long time, i dont hurt myself, i see plenty of others do.
on the rs i work on myself, it's CL.
on the rs that i need occasional support, i use lugs.
I'm right there wih you
10-27-2012, 12:39 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
i wasn't clr
they all will fail from use/fatigue. studs and bolts dont last forever, i replace all studs all wheel bearings every year.
the design is CL is not my criticism.
i am talking about user errors. those of use know the procedure can get it right. but let say, you HAVE to for some reason have AAA or jiffy lube or ding dong autocare, change your wheels....
you got CL, would you let them do it?
if you have five lug, you are more inclined to let them do it.
remember, you DONT have a choice to do it yourself, you MUST have above three shop perform the wheel change and you CANNOT provide them directions to them. i wont let them do CL, why? b/c they will fk up. the reason they fk up is b/c they dont know how to do it right. and just walk around the track. 50% of CL guys just dotn do it right.... and there are times i dont want to do my own wheels.... then someone will likely fk up FOR you.
if izzone is in CA, i would be on CL b/c he's gonna change them for me, i just pay him beer.
yes, youu can strip thread, over tighten lugs... BUT if you are that bad, you will for sure get CL wrong.
they all will fail from use/fatigue. studs and bolts dont last forever, i replace all studs all wheel bearings every year.
the design is CL is not my criticism.
i am talking about user errors. those of use know the procedure can get it right. but let say, you HAVE to for some reason have AAA or jiffy lube or ding dong autocare, change your wheels....
you got CL, would you let them do it?
if you have five lug, you are more inclined to let them do it.
remember, you DONT have a choice to do it yourself, you MUST have above three shop perform the wheel change and you CANNOT provide them directions to them. i wont let them do CL, why? b/c they will fk up. the reason they fk up is b/c they dont know how to do it right. and just walk around the track. 50% of CL guys just dotn do it right.... and there are times i dont want to do my own wheels.... then someone will likely fk up FOR you.
if izzone is in CA, i would be on CL b/c he's gonna change them for me, i just pay him beer.
yes, youu can strip thread, over tighten lugs... BUT if you are that bad, you will for sure get CL wrong.
There's a famous/notorious forum member on here who has the whole package to setup to convert at $2500 including labor. Not including wheels of course.
Aside from the obvious safety issues and potential to fawk up the complex series of steps need to take them off and put them on properly, the main reason I can't stand them is that I've now become the CL assistant bitch since I can do mine so quickly alone and I'm generally standing around watching the CL guys
You can't take them on or off without having someone sitting in the car, and holding the brake pedal like they're leg pressing 1000 pounds. Yeah, some say you can use that wheel pedal presser. Never seen that actually work out. Sometimes it's so bad getting them off we have to start the car and use the hydraulics to assist holding the brake while the person on the other end of the 4 foot long torque wrench is hanging off it trying to pop that 500 foot pounds loose.
It is what it is. If it comes on your car I guess you have to deal with it... When I get the 991 (10 years froms now based on my current finances) and if it comes with CL's, I will most certainly convert immediately. However, I can understand some people's predicaments who've already gone out and bought 2 extra sets of track wheels. That's a tough spot. However I can get three sets of 18" OZ's 5 lugs for same price as one set of gmg CL wheels. There's your street wheels and two extra sets for the track. Done and done
forum member on here who has the whole package to setup to convert at $2500 including labor. Not including wheels of course. Aside from the obvious safety issues and potential to fawk up the complex series of steps need to take them off and put them on properly, the main reason I can't stand them is that I've now become the CL assistant bitch since I can do mine so quickly alone and I'm generally standing around watching the CL guys
You can't take them on or off without having someone sitting in the car, and holding the brake pedal like they're leg pressing 1000 pounds. Yeah, some say you can use that wheel pedal presser. Never seen that actually work out. Sometimes it's so bad getting them off we have to start the car and use the hydraulics to assist holding the brake while the person on the other end of the 4 foot long torque wrench is hanging off it trying to pop that 500 foot pounds loose.
It is what it is. If it comes on your car I guess you have to deal with it... When I get the 991 (10 years froms now based on my current finances) and if it comes with CL's, I will most certainly convert immediately. However, I can understand some people's predicaments who've already gone out and bought 2 extra sets of track wheels. That's a tough spot. However I can get three sets of 18" OZ's 5 lugs for same price as one set of gmg CL wheels. There's your street wheels and two extra sets for the track. Done and done
Or Mooty didn't have enough..