Larry are you thinking of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

If so the way I understand it is that for example a car company can not say...you have to use our brand of oil...they have to give specs on what oil to use....something like that.

PCNA explained to me that for example if I use an aftermarket exhaust and I burn a piston or there are leaks with gaskets that they can and will prove that due to back pressure change this non-stock exhaust product is the root of the cause.

For those of you that re-map, flash or change the ECU in anyway...forget it...according to Porsche the entire car is no longer under warranty.

 

yep that's what I was thinking of... guess its not valid

thanks for finding that...

 

Moss Magnuson is a good first line of defense but honestly, if a mfg wants to deny the claim, you'd potentially have to spend a fortune fighting them. The law does state that unless the part causes the failure , they can't deny the claim. I find it VERY hard to justify that a bypass which even the CARB doesn't ban as illegal, could ever cause any problems. But often, logic isn't part of the discussion. I figure that i'll put it on and if i have any significant warranty issues, it'll come off first.

 

There's a thread over on GT2GT3Cup.org that details how useful Moss Magnuson is to car owners. It basically says that the Manufacturer has to prove without doubt that the aftermarket part caused the problem. Goes on to say that they are unlikely to take the time to do that especially when they are likely just blowing smoke to begin with. Might be worth reading that thread.

 

These is one reason that I maintain a positive relationship with my dealer's service department. First mine are an outstanding group of techs and all around nice guys. The deal is the dealer can get a lot by the Porsche regional rep but they only have so many passes. If you never take your car to them and do not have a relationship than they have no reason to go to the mat for you. It is a two way street. SO I pay a little fore for oil changes and brakes. It has paid off for me in many ways.

 

Here you go. This should help. It helped me a lot and please note that the manufacturer has to provide in writing the exact reason and how the after market part voids that reppair under warranty. They can not void the whole warranty.

Stu



Can an automotive dealership void your warranty?

Understanding the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975.
Nearly everyone has heard about someone who has taken a vehicle that has been modified with aftermarket parts to a dealer for warranty service, only to have the dealer refuse to cover the defective items. The dealer usually states that because of the aftermarket parts the warranty is void, without even attempting to determine whether the aftermarket part caused the problem.
This is illegal.
Vehicle manufacturers are not allowed to void the vehicle warranty just because aftermarket parts are on the vehicle. To better understand this problem it is best to know the differences between the two types of new car warranties and the two types of emission warranties.
When a vehicle is purchased new and the owner is protected against the faults that may occur by an expressed warranty - an offer by the manufacturer to assume the responsibility for problems with predetermined parts during a stated period of time. Beyond the expressed warranty, the vehicle manufacturer is often held responsible for further implied warranties. These state that a manufactured product should meet certain standards. However, in both cases, the mere presence of aftermarket parts doesn't void the warranty.
There are also two emission warranties (defect and performance) required under the clean air act. The defect warranty requires the manufacturer to produce a vehicle which, at the time of sale, is free of defects that would cause it to not meet the required emission levels for it's useful life as defined in the law. The performance warranty implies a vehicle must maintain certain levels of emission performance over it's useful life. If the vehicle fails to meet the performance warranty requirements, the manufacturer must make repairs at no cost to the owner, even if an aftermarket part is directly responsible for a warranty claim, the vehicle manufacturer cannot void the performance warranty. This protection is the result of a parts self - certification program developed by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA).
In cases where such a failed aftermarket part is responsible for a warranty claim, the vehicle manufacturer must arrange a settlement with the consumer, but by law the new - vehicle warranty is not voided.
Overall, the laws governing warranties are very clear. The only time a new vehicle warranty can be voided is if an aftermarket part has been installed and it can be proven that it is responsible for an emission warranty claim. However, a vehicle manufacturer or dealership cannot void a warranty simply because an an aftermarket equipment has been installed on a vehicle.
If a dealership denies a warranty claim and you think the claim falls under the rules explained above concerning the clean air act (such as an emission part failure), obtain a written explanation of the dealers refusal. Then follow the steps outlined in the owners manual. However, if this fails, then phone your complaint in to the EPA at (202) 233-9040 or (202) 326-9100.
If a dealer denies a warranty claim involving an implied or expressed new car warranty and you would like help, you can contact the Federal Trade Commission (FTC). The FTC works for the consumer to prevent fraudulent, deceptive and unfair business practices in the marketplace and to provide information to help consumers spot, stop and avoid them. To file a complaint, you can call toll-free, 1-877-FTC-HELP (1-877-382-4357), or use the online complaint form. The FTC enters Internet, telemarketing, and other fraud-related complaints into Consumer Sentinel, a secure, online database available to hundreds of civil and criminal law enforcement agencies worldwide.
WHAT IS THE MAGNUSON-MOSS WARRANTY ACT?
On January 4, 1975, President Ford signed into law the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, Title 1, ..101-112, 15 U.S.C. ..2301 et seq. This act, effective July 4, 1975, is designed to "improve the adequacy of information available to consumers, prevent deception, and improve competition in the marketing of consumer products. . . ." The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act applies only to consumer products, which are defined as "any tangible personal property which is distributed in commerce and which is normally used for personal, family, or household purposes (including any such property intended to be attached to or installed in any real property without regard to whether it is so attached or installed)." Under Section 103 of the Act, if a warrantor sells a consumer product costing more than $15 under written warranty, the writing must state the warranty in readily understandable language as determined by standards set forth by the Federal Trade Commission. There is, however, no requirement that a warranty be given nor that any product be warranted for any length of time. Thus the Act only requires that when there is a written warranty, the warrantor clearly disclose the nature of his warranty obligation prior to the sale of the product. The consumer may then compare warranty protection, thus shopping for the "best buy." To further protect the consumer from deception, the Act requires that any written warranty must be labeled as either a "full" or a "limited" warranty. Only warranties that meet the standards of the Act may be labeled as "full." One of the most important provisions of the Act prohibits a warrantor from disclaiming or modifying any implied warranty whenever any written warranty is given or service contract entered into. Implied warranties may, however, be limited in duration if the limitation is reasonable, conscionable, and set forth in clear and unmistakable language prominently displayed on the face of the warranty. A consumer damaged by breach of warranty, or noncompliance with the act, may sue in either state or federal district court. Access to federal court, however, is severely limited by the Act's provision that no claim may be brought in federal court if: (a) The amount in controversy of any individual claim is less than $25,000; (b) the amount in controversy is less than the sum or value of $50,000 computed on the basis of all claims in the suit; or (c) a class action is brought, and the number of named plaintiffs is less than 100. In light of these requirements it is likely that most suits will be brought in state court. If the consumer prevails, he is awarded costs and attorneys' fees. Nothing in the Act invalidates any right or remedy available under state law, and most suits should proceed on claims based on both the Code and the Act.
Understanding the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act
The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is the federal law that governs consumer product warranties. Passed by Congress in 1975, the Act requires manufacturers and sellers of consumer products to provide consumers with detailed information about warranty coverage. In addition, it affects both the rights of consumers and the obligations of warrantors under written warranties.
To understand the Act, it is useful to be aware of Congress' intentions in passing it. First, Congress wanted to ensure that consumers could get complete information about warranty terms and conditions. By providing consumers with a way of learning what warranty coverage is offered on a product before they buy, the Act gives consumers a way to know what to expect if something goes wrong, and thus helps to increase customer satisfaction.
Second, Congress wanted to ensure that consumers could compare warranty coverage before buying. By comparing, consumers can choose a product with the best combination of price, features, and warranty coverage to meet their individual needs.
Third, Congress intended to promote competition on the basis of warranty coverage. By assuring that consumers can get warranty information, the Act encourages sales promotion on the basis of warranty coverage and competition among companies to meet consumer preferences through various levels of warranty coverage.
Finally, Congress wanted to strengthen existing incentives for companies to perform their warranty obligations in a timely and thorough manner and to resolve any disputes with a minimum of delay and expense to consumers. Thus, the Act makes it easier for consumers to pursue a remedy for breach of warranty in the courts, but it also creates a framework for companies to set up procedures for resolving disputes inexpensively and informally, without litigation.
What the Magnuson-Moss Act Does Not Require
In order to understand how the Act affects you as a businessperson, it is important first to understand what the Act does not require.
First, the Act does not require any business to provide a written warranty. The Act allows businesses to determine whether to warrant their products in writing. However, once a business decides to offer a written warranty on a consumer product, it must comply with the Act.
Second, the Act does not apply to oral warranties. Only written warranties are covered.
Third, the Act does not apply to warranties on services. Only warranties on goods are covered. However, if your warranty covers both the parts provided for a repair and the workmanship in making that repair, the Act does apply to you.
Finally, the Act does not apply to warranties on products sold for resale or for commercial purposes. The Act covers only warranties on consumer products. This means that only warranties on tangible property normally used for personal, family, or household purposes are covered. (This includes property attached to or installed on real property.) Note that applicability of the Act to a particular product does not, however, depend upon how an individual buyer will use it.
The following section of this manual summarizes what the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act requires warrantors to do, what it prohibits them from doing, and how it affects warranty disputes.
What the Magnuson-Moss Act Requires
In passing the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, Congress specified a number of requirements that warrantors must meet. Congress also directed the FTC to adopt rules to cover other requirements. The FTC adopted three Rules under the Act, the Rule on Disclosure of Written Consumer Product Warranty Terms and Conditions (the Disclosure Rule), the Rule on Pre-Sale Availability of Written Warranty Terms (the Pre-Sale Availability Rule), and the Rule on Informal Dispute Settlement Procedures (the Dispute Resolution Rule). In addition, the FTC has issued an interpretive rule that clarifies certain terms and explains some of the provisions of the Act. This section summarizes all the requirements under the Act and the Rules.
The Act and the Rules establish three basic requirements that may apply to you, either as a warrantor or a seller.
As a warrantor, you must designate, or title, your written warranty as either "full" or "limited."
As a warrantor, you must state certain specified information about the coverage of your warranty in a single, clear, and easy-to-read document.
As a warrantor or a seller, you must ensure that warranties are available where your warranted consumer products are sold so that consumers can read them before buying.

The titling requirement, established by the Act, applies to all written warranties on consumer products costing more than $10. However, the disclosure and pre-sale availability requirements, established by FTC Rules, apply to all written warranties on consumer products costing more than $15. Each of these three general requirements is explained in greater detail in the following chapters.
What the Magnuson-Moss Act Does Not Allow
There are three prohibitions under the Magnuson-Moss Act. They involve implied warranties, so-called "tie-in sales" provisions, and deceptive or misleading warranty terms.
Disclaimer or Modification of Implied Warranties
The Act prohibits anyone who offers a written warranty from disclaiming or modifying implied warranties. This means that no matter how broad or narrow your written warranty is, your customers always will receive the basic protection of the implied warranty of merchantability.
There is one permissible modification of implied warranties, however. If you offer a "limited" written warranty, the law allows you to include a provision that restricts the duration of implied warranties to the duration of your limited warranty. For example, if you offer a two-year limited warranty, you can limit implied warranties to two years. However, if you offer a "full" written warranty, you cannot limit the duration of implied warranties.
If you sell a consumer product with a written warranty from the product manufacturer, but you do not warrant the product in writing, you can disclaim your implied warranties. (These are the implied warranties under which the seller, not the manufacturer, would otherwise be responsible.) But, regardless of whether you warrant the products you sell, as a seller, you must give your customers copies of any written warranties from product manufacturers.
"Tie-In Sales" Provisions
Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.
In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.
While you cannot use a tie-in sales provision, your warranty need not cover use of replacement parts, repairs, or maintenance that is inappropriate for your product. The following is an example of a permissible provision that excludes coverage of such things.
While necessary maintenance or repairs on your AudioMundo Stereo System can be performed by any company, we recommend that you use only authorized AudioMundo dealers. Improper or incorrectly performed maintenance or repair voids this warranty.
Although tie-in sales provisions generally are not allowed, you can include such a provision in your warranty if you can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the FTC that your product will not work properly without a specified item or service. If you believe that this is the case, you should contact the warranty staff of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection for information on how to apply for a waiver of the tie-in sales prohibition.
Deceptive Warranty Terms
Obviously, warranties must not contain deceptive or misleading terms. You cannot offer a warranty that appears to provide coverage but, in fact, provides none. For example, a warranty covering only "moving parts" on an electronic product that has no moving parts would be deceptive and unlawful. Similarly, a warranty that promised service that the warrantor had no intention of providing or could not provide would be deceptive and unlawful.
How the Magnuson Moss Act May Affect Warranty Disputes
Two other features of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act are also important to warrantors. First, the Act makes it easier for consumers to take an unresolved warranty problem to court. Second, it encourages companies to use a less formal, and therefore less costly, alternative to legal proceedings. Such alternatives, known as dispute resolution mechanisms, often can be used to settle warranty complaints before they reach litigation.
Consumer Lawsuits
The Act makes it easier for purchasers to sue for breach of warranty by making breach of warranty a violation of federal law, and by allowing consumers to recover court costs and reasonable attorneys' fees. This means that if you lose a lawsuit for breach of either a written or an implied warranty, you may have to pay the customer's costs for bringing the suit, including lawyer's fees.
Because of the stringent federal jurisdictional requirements under the Act, most Magnuson-Moss lawsuits are brought in state court. However, major cases involving many consumers can be brought in federal court as class action suits under the Act.
Although the consumer lawsuit provisions may have little effect on your warranty or your business, they are important to remember if you are involved in warranty disputes.
Alternatives to Consumer Lawsuits
Although the Act makes consumer lawsuits for breach of warranty easier to bring, its goal is not to promote more warranty litigation. On the contrary, the Act encourages companies to use informal dispute resolution mechanisms to settle warranty disputes with their customers. Basically, an informal dispute resolution mechanism is a system that works to resolve warranty problems that are at a stalemate. Such a mechanism may be run by an impartial third party, such as the Better Business Bureau, or by company employees whose only job is to administer the informal dispute resolution system. The impartial third party uses conciliation, mediation, or arbitration to settle warranty disputes.
The Act allows warranties to include a provision that requires customers to try to resolve warranty disputes by means of the informal dispute resolution mechanism before going to court. (This provision applies only to cases based upon the Magnuson-Moss Act.) If you include such a requirement in your warranty, your dispute resolution mechanism must meet the requirements stated in the FTC's Rule on Informal Dispute Settlement Procedures (the Dispute Resolution Rule). Briefly, the Rule requires that a mechanism must:
Be adequately funded and staffed to resolve all disputes quickly;
Be available free of charge to consumers;
Be able to settle disputes independently, without influence from the parties involved;
Follow written procedures;
Inform both parties when it receives notice of a dispute;
Gather, investigate, and organize all information necessary to decide each dispute fairly and quickly;
Provide each party an opportunity to present its side, to submit supporting materials, and to rebut points made by the other party; (the mechanism may allow oral presentations, but only if both parties agree);
Inform both parties of the decision and the reasons supporting it within 40 days of receiving notice of a dispute; Issue decisions that are not binding; either party must be free to take the dispute to court if dissatisfied with the decision (however, companies may, and often do, agree to be bound by the decision);
Keep complete records on all disputes; and
Be audited annually for compliance with the Rule.
It is clear from these standards that informal dispute resolution mechanisms under the Dispute Resolution Rule are not "informal" in the sense of being unstructured. Rather, they are informal because they do not involve the technical rules of evidence, procedure, and precedents that a court of law must use.
Currently, the FTC's staff is evaluating the Dispute Resolution Rule to determine if informal dispute resolution mechanisms can be made simpler and easier to use. To obtain more information about this review, contact the FTC's warranty staff.
As stated previously, you do not have to comply with the Dispute Resolution Rule if you do not require consumers to use a mechanism before bringing suit under the Magnuson-Moss Act. You may want to consider establishing a mechanism that will make settling warranty disputes easier, even though it may not meet the standards of the Dispute Resolution Rule.
You can view a slightly more detailed legal explanation of the Magnuson - Moss Warranty act of 1975 by clicking on the following link: http://www.pipelin e.com/~rmantis/webdoc14.htm
Sources of the above information include:
Superchips Inc. Newsletter / Car Craft September 1994 issue.
Federal Trade Commission Website.
State Bar of Texas Website (texasbarcle.com)

 

Thanks Mdrums and Stu!

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 is what all tuners refer to.

But still I am affraid the stealers can make it just harder for you to get hassle free warrantee, you have to fight them, etc.

When my car only had a roll bar and seat belts my dealer "offered" to call the German factory rep to come see the car "becasue of all the mods" and I had to sign that I would be charged the $150.00 and hour rate for all non warranty work "because of all the mods".

They replaced my cooler valve under warranty anyway (BTW, many early '10's went bad), but their whole stance was to screw me from the get go if they have a chance. If they would have denied warranty it would take letters and lawyers. Expensive and annoying all.

 

My .1 GT3 was CPO'd WITH the Sharkwerks bypass on it...

how's that for a conundrum?

When the car arrive and I fired it up I was a bit surprised.
I had the selling dealer write a letter stating they CPO'd the car with the bypass on it and all was cool, etc.

That probably won't win the battle if the time ever comes but maybe it will help
The dealer I am using for warranty work said it wasn't a problem.
Wonder what Porsche thinks?

 

The only warranty/exception I have been told by my dealer is related to brake rotors. Due to the recent center lock campaign, if you use an aftermarket brake rotor that does not meet the measured specs of a factory part, they can deny warranty for any part effected by the out of spec component. The direct example given is if the lug/nub holes are larger than the spec under the campaign. Under the campaign they have to measure the gap of the holes in the rotors to the nubs and if the gap it too large, they replace the rotor under warranty. There are a couple of cases posted on this forum where Porsche did replace rotors, wheels and hubs under the campaign. If there is a failure as a result of an out of spec rotor, Porsche does not have to warranty the hubs they attach to, the calipers that clamp to them or the wheels that bolt on to the front of them.

When I got my first set of PFC rotors that had the old style oval hole hats, my dealer told me flat out when I was going to have them installed that they would install them, but would not honor warranty on any part of the hub assembly or brakes as a result of a failure with that rotor. Hence, I returned my PFC rotors for a set with the improved hats. My dealer verified the new hats with the smaller circular holes meets the spec requirements of the campaign and hence will not effect warranty. BTW, the Magnuson-Moss act in this case will not protect you if you intentionally put an out of spec component on your car that effects safety.

For center muffler delete pipes or aftermarket exhaust, I have never heard of any issues with warranty on one of these car. In fact, all 3 of my local dealers regularly install Fabspeed or GMG center pipes on GT3s.

 

Chris,

Which dealer is telling you this so we can avoid that dealership?

 

The law in the US is that they have to specifically prove that the non-OEM parts may have caused the failure. But that requires going to court and is very expensive. Sometimes just having a lawyer write up a letter will do the trick with PCNA.

 

I actually called my rep at Auto Gallery today and he said it's a non issue so long as it's not welded to the side muffler pipes (who in the hell would even do that??). I have a pretty good relationship with AG over the past few years but haven't had to test it with any serious warranty repairs.

Werks II is installing the bypass and they said they've had a couple of customers have issues with warranty with bypass pipes installed. I decided to do it anyway. Get the car back tomorrow night just in time to torture my neighbors this weekend.

 

I had been told by my Tokyo and Manila dealers, independently, that Porsche had instructed them to check cars for mods before any warranty work is done. The bypass was specifically mentioned. Warranty work can then be denied based on mods, although I have personally not had any problems (I have only done wheels and cosmetics, based partly on the warning given).

 

This came up a few years ago. Several people were denied warranty on their RMS repairs because of bypass mufflers, with PCNA saying the back pressure change affects leakage.

What are you gonna do? Take them to court for a $1000 repair?

 

While the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act does offer some protection to the consumer, it also gives the manufacturer the ability to put limits on its warranty.

These limits have to be clearly stated and they are, in the warranty booklet that comes with the car, and which no one reads.

Oh, another thing: In some cases a warranty claim is denied and the car owner assumes it is because of some relatively unrelated aftermarket component, but the real reason may be buried in the pages (I was told over 20 pages) of engine metrics/data that is downloaded from the DME when the car is brought in for a warranty claim.

If the info in this data indicates it, the warranty can be denied. The dealer may not know why either. The data is downloaded from the car's various electronic controllers and sent directly to PCNA/the factory electronically and then the dealer is informed if the claim will be granted or denied.

Sincerely,

Macster.