Centerlocks - I'm out! ....Hello 5-lug conversion!
 

Hi All!

Lastest Update: See Article in Excellence (Feb 2012 issue) "Five Lugs or Bust" on sale Dec 27/11.

NEW: I just arranged a Rennlist Group Buy at SUNCOAST for anyone interested in doing the conversion, Call Ric Knab 877-923-1700.....see pricing on Post #91

NOTE FOR ALL:Conversion confirmed go to Post # 52 on page 4 ! ALSO NEW FINAL PHOTOS in Posts #62 and#63 on Page 5 - ENJOY!!!!

Additional Notes: Wheel and tire sizes, theoretical offsets for the CL to 5 lug conversion are precisely the same for 997.1 GT3/RS and 997.2 GT3/RS.

Note that the Gen 1 cars use a 5mm spacer in the rear, so the wheel offset on a narrow body for example, is actually 68mm, but stepped out to 63mm when combined with the spacer. If you are ordering new wheels just use the standard Gen2 narrow or widebody offsets as a guide. Offsets do not change as a result of the conversion.

For my narrow body conversion I used:

Forgeline GA3R wheels: 8.5x19et 51mm (-2mm from OEM) and 12x19et63mm (same as OEM).


Ok, as many of you already know I am not a big fan of the Porsche street-going centerlock wheel set up. While I believe the arrangement is a very slick piece of engineering and the OEM wheels are really quite cool, the additional time, effort, care, and special maintenance to keep them safe and working perfectly is not fitting well with my “track-rat” lifestyle. After well over 60 full wheel and tire changes (yep, all four wheels!), investing in the proper tools and an extra set of wheels, and following the past and current Porsche guidelines to the letter, I have had enough!!!!

It is interesting to note that the “Centerlock Wheel Failure” thread of early this week has had absolutely nothing to do with my decision. In fact, I have been working on a plan to convert my car back to a 5 lug configuration for a few months. Yep, I am going back to the old fashioned 5 lugs!!! Shameless Plug: “PM” me if you would like to purchase my perfect condition, narrow body GT3 OEM CL Wheels.
The good news is that I have cracked the case of the Porsche Centerlock to 5 lug conversion after quite a bit of research/detailed detective work and will test the procedure later next week. I will post photos of the procedure here in this Rennlist Forum as a “Public Service Announcement” for all to see. Special Thanks go to: Steven Tory (“Trophy”), Pete Hitesman (“Savyboy”), John ? (911Slow), Jess Lattin (Porsche Master Tech), Ric Knab (Suncoast Porsche), and David Schardt (Forgeline).

If you have centerlock wheels on your car, don’t despair, this system works fine and Porsche will likely report on the one isolated failure, and hopefully the answer will show up on the “CL Failure” Rennlist thread. The 5 lug conversion described here will likely only be considered for those “track-rats” like myself who gobble up track events a rate of 10 or more days per year.

So without further ado, here is a listing and cost of the Porsche OEM parts required for the 5 lug conversion and brief description of the work that will need to be done.

Front:
997-341-605-01 WHEEL HUB, 2 required, $326.80ea (Suncoast)
999-053-054-06 WHEEL BEARING, 2 required, $88.70ea (Suncoast)
Rear:
997-331-605-00 WHEEL HUB, 2 required, $ 359.32ea (Suncoast)
999-053-055-02 WHEEL BEARING, 2 required, $113.49ea (Suncoast)

Additional Parts:
Porsche Lug bolts, 20 required, $7.43ea (Suncoast)
or
Race Studs: $91/set and Nuts: $77 (2 sets, cone-type and rounded Porsche-Type, best to have both types)
(see Track Studs by APEX: http://www.race-studs.com/servlet/th...Nose%27/Detail )

Total Parts cost with Race Stud upgrade: $1954.62
(Of course this does not include the cost of a new set of wheels,…..or the required labor!)

After my original research was complete I figured that one had to only switch out the Hubs and upgrade to race quality stubs/nuts for the perfect conversion as I found during my research that all nuts and axles are fully compatible. However, this was not exactly the case as it was pointed out by Steven Tory that the Hubs would need to be pressed out of the front and rear wheel carriers destroying the (perfectly good) wheel bearings in the process. Thus new wheel bearings are required all round. The reason for this is that the hubs (CL or 5 lug) fit in to the bearings with an “interference fit” and must be pressed in and out of place. The only bad news is that more labor is required to accomplish the conversion than originally thought, as one must remove the wheel carrier from the car to accomplish the R&R of the CL hub/bearing/5-lug hub. This work is likely best done by a Porsche Dealer as it requires a suitable hydraulic press and accompanying tools, as pointed out by Jess Lattin. Also, the bearings must be installed in the correct orientation, magnetic side in, but this can easily be determined with a paperclip.

Anyway, this is the route I plan to follow. I will report back soon with some comments and photos of the procedure. Hopefully, now there is an alternative to just complaining about the CL wheels, and that Porsche AG will take our opinions into account when designing the next 991 GT cars.

Please, how about a choice next time around?

Cheers! :bigbye:
Doug N.

PS. 911SLOW, can you -re-post the PET figures of the front and rear wheel carriers in this thread along with the associated parts and numbers, so the guys can see. Also, please up my "photo" upload albilities....I've got no space left and I will need some more. Thx!

you have to become an addict now that you're a self-confessed "track-rat"!

You will increase the value of your car by at least as much as you spend on parts and labor...

I smell a suncoast kit coming on :-)

would this be the same route that grand-am cup cars use. more less....?

fun upgrade. :)

Thread subscribed :thumbup:

Center Locks are unique. Kinda cool....and a bit of a pain.

I think you would take a big hit in resale value by doing this.

But it's what you want.

Good Luck

I would pay more for it if I was in the market

Since the majority of parts used in the swap are factory Porsche parts and the Centerlock equipment can be packaged and placed in storage, it could keep full resale value as swapping back is alway possible. ( keeping the centerlock wheels in storage and not selling them would also be neccessary).

good point to mention however. Some dealers would not want all the boxes with the car on a trade in.

Doug, will you have the 5 bolts ready in time for MMP or still running the CL wheels. I'm sticking with my CL set up but interested in your project.

Cheers

cant wait to see how it turns out. big props to you for going forward with it

doug for lifetime membership!

can't wait to see.
for most track guys, they will pay more for your mod. i know i would.
once you get it to work, i am certain that suncoast will do a "kit"

:bowdown:

Just out of interest did you consider Carrera GT system as well?

i htink the wheel choices are highly limited.
on that note, someone might try the cup car CL route? a few more choices in wheels, but still needs special tools though.

Gents, thank you for the encouragement!



No worries.....I will be buried in this car!


Russ, I should have it all done by then and will keep you informed.

I didn't consider it......mostly because I was tried of carrying that "Mother" of a torque wrench around. She's a biggie!


Cheers!
Doug N.

Awesome Doug! Way to be the pioneer in all this. The parts price list is actually less than I expected. I look forward to how it all turns out for you, which I trust will include a nice write-up with photos, not that I have any interest in doing the same or anything :D

Is this conversion going to end up on your next European Car mag feature?

doug has done all the r&d on this ... and a vendor gets to profit! :(

If you factor in dealer labor rates, could it be cheaper to order more parts to avoid the labor? Have you calculated this alternative cost and could you post this information

I haven't decided where it will go yet, but I felt that this was extremely important for our Rennlist group to know about this ASAP.....so enjoy the fruits of my labor!

Again, I had lots of help, but certainly led the "investigation".....Yes, sure the vendors and Porsche (AG and dealers) will "cash in" some, your thanks and encouragement is more than enough for me......ok, I'll accept beer or single malt:biggulp:!

Great question! Yes, I have done a few senarios, but one can't get around the HUGE cost of new wheel carriers......for example the front wheel carrier for 2010/11 is part number 997-341-157-93 and one of them goes for $1462......enough said, .......the labor cost will be much cheaper.

Cheers!
Doug N

Well Doug the cat is out of the bag :)

Looks like we have some work to do.....

Love the ingenuity of this board. Looking forward to the full write up. Best of luck!

A drawing to see the parts mentioned:

wheel hub
angular contact bearing


BTW I noticed that the tension bolt in the front has a different part # between the '08 and '10 cars.
996 341 131 04 vs 997 341 131 00.
Probably not an issue.

Let me know how your studs hold up :corn:

Stud Hater :) I would switch to studs myself if I could find a set that fit properly. Either they are too short or way too long. Can't win.

Kudos on the conversion. I myself, am waiting for the 991 GT3 to come out before I make the switch. I'm hoping 5 lug will be an option, but it looks like even if its not there will be a work around. Good to know. I have become very attached to my cordless impact wrench and the ease of lugs.

Do you have to address rotors as well?

I have a "special" Talisker single malt you can share with me! Or as porsche would put it - Talisker 1957 LE!

Call John at BGB Motorsports in Daytona...they do studs on all the Grand Am Porsches and know how to do the job...while you're there get a proper string alignment.

Yes, we do Steven.....this should be a fun one, during and after.!
Note to Rennlisters: Steven gets free rain of my 60+ Single Malt Scotch bar for helping with this one!!! He's a great "Bloke"! :thumbup:

Yes, John indeed you are correct, thanks for pointing out. However the nut is the same part number (so the threads are the same) and the length of the hub barrels going through the bearing are also the same. Also, I believe the new carrier requires this new "tension bolt (stub axle, likely a new inside end design)", so everything should be fine.

See the link for race studs in my original post, these ones come in 3 different sizes.......I picked the smallest and have already checked them for length. Perfecto! :thumbup:

No, not on car with standard brakes......sorry not sure on ceramics (different wheel carriers), but I don't it being a problem.

Ah.......now here is a gentleman! Thank you, I'd be happy too!!! Also, let me know if you will be in Calgary, and I will pleased to share any of my "LE's" and other favorites with you.


Cheers to all! :cheers:

Doug N.

And I can vouch for Doug being a mighty fine person to hang out with and talk "gasoline" :thumbup: A real gentleman.

:cheers:

so which 5-lug wheels have the correct offsets?

no wasting a good malt on any heathens! :D

doug for lifetime membership!

I hope your not referring to me as a heathen :D

you could've just... oh i dunno... sold the current car and picked up a prior gen and made yourself money instead of spending more


just thinking outside the box here

in this case, the definition of "heathen" is someone who cant tell (or appreciate) the difference between a single malt, and a blended whisky; the latter being of primary application to clean open wounds or sterilized those parts affected by STDs!

:)

I was on one of the tours of the Brumos race shop during the Porsche parade in Savannah, and their Grand Am cup car was on a lift being prepared for WGI. It had what looked like a custom fabricated hub with 5 studs on it - looked just like the diagram above except with studs sticking out of it. . I now wish I'd shot a picture of it. Anyway, you might want to talk with them about what their solution was - or maybe BGB did it for them.

Well, I could......but I absolutely love my car (factory ordered it in fact, so its perfect).....I just don't find the CL's practical for my purposes, and I am happy to pay for something that suits me better. I should be able to minimize the hit by selling off my CL wheels and hub hardware.....I won't be reversing, ever!

Cheers!
Doug N

Doug N, great post. What wheels are you getting now for the 5-lug? Are you getting separate street & track wheels?
Thanks

Doug, the link for the studs shows 3 options, which size is correct, please?
M14x1.5 ACS 'Bullet Nose' race stud
71mm, 81mm, or 91mm????

http://www.race-studs.com/servlet/th...Nose%27/Detail

I am thinking of this solution for myself. Wondering if I can get all parts and install by 08.31.11 since I am scheduled to be at VIR for the weekend.

Doug! NOW you tell me you have a 60 bottle scotch collection...ahhhh!

So GT3DE, what was the final outcome of your failure? Was the car fixed? Was it determined what led to the failure? There are many guys here keen to understand....:confused:

the 3.6 is in no way comparable to the 3.8. night and day.

I had studs in my former 997 GT3 RS. I took out the crappy stuff mooty had there and put better ones, same brand race-studs, but without the bullet type tips which I regret as the bullet type tips are even more convenient.

Buy the 81mm ones.

Here are the dimensions used:

12mm bolted to the hub + 5mm to clear rotor hat + 10mm to clear stock wheels + 20mm to clear the steel lug nut + 20mm on the bullet tip = 67mm.

Right, you should be fine with 71mm ones, but the problem is that CCW, Fikse, HRE use a little more space for the wheel center, JongBloed goes to 15mm, so with 71mm studs and aftermarket wheels you will end up unable to have lug nuts fully threaded on the stud. Sometimes I use spacers to compensate for wider tires or different than stock offsets, you cannot add even a factory 5mm spacer to the 71mm studs.

The 91mm would be fine as well, but they don't have any gains, as they are not long enough to use the BBS Magnesium wheels (lightest wheels made for a 996/997) which use a 35mm center. So, they will stick out more and not give you any benefit.

Aesthetically, you won't notice the 81mm bullet type studs.

Here are the links to CDOC. Check this video. In addition to their instructions, use Red Loctite on the stud thread that bolts to the hub when installing them. You will love having studs.

Buy 25 studs and 25 lug nuts. Keep 5 pairs as spares.

http://store.cdoc.com/track-studswheelstud-1.aspx

http://store.cdoc.com/lugnutsteel.aspx

Hey NJ_GT,

Thanks for stud install info (that is handy and damn good timing too!) and for writing out the calc's, they are spot on!!! :biggulp:

I am planning to run custom built Forgeline wheels (GAR3Rs in 19 inch sizing with perfect offsets - so no spacers will be used ever) and found that the 71mm studs will fit nicely with a couple or three millimeters of thread to spare.

NOTE FOR ALL:

The conversion has begun.....wheel carriers are out and the CL hubs will be pressed out later today or tomorrow.....then the 5-lug hubs and new bearings will be installed and reassembly will begin......I hope to have an update on Monday Aug 29th. :corn:

Cheers!
Doug N

Porsche is usually on top of the game, but I wonder if these center locking wheels for their production road cars was more for the "wanna be" hype than anything else. Yes in racing conditions they make sense. But for the "track rats"?

Note to self: "I you are ever in the market for a 997.2 GT3, look for one who has been converted back to the 5 lug nuts. If someone like Doug doesn't like the center locks, you know you will only be worse". But how many 997.2 GT3s will be converted? nudge nudge hint hint ... Doug's car will be converted and it is an awesome car. It's fast, it's already silver (so it hides the dirt) and it sounds awesome on the track with his after market exhaust. But besides finding the money for a 997.2 GT3 (a challenge in itself), I will also need to convince Doug he would be better off in a 4.0 GT3 RS so that his converted 997.2 GT3 would come on the market. haha ... and pigs fly. :evilgrin:

My car will be converted. Just waiting for empirical data ;)

You do realize that I have first right of refusal on that car :)

No need to shop only for cars which have been converted, it doesn't sound like it will be a particularly expensive or challenging process once the pioneers like Doug have blazed the trail for everyone else.

I figure it'll eventually be like putting in time-serts for the caliper bolts and nice rounded studs to replace the stock lug bolts -- a step that all the track junkies do, grumble about briefly, then never really think about again. :)

Okay if you buy Doug's car then I will buy your car.

Or better yet, I'll just copy your car. Is your profile up-to-date? Are all your mods listed here? :p

LOL, I've got plenty of secrets.....but happy to share single malt with GT3 gents!

Working on it Lewis! :D .....so far things are going fairly smoothly.

I haven't seen a deposit yet ! :roflmao: However, I will likely just have to just give you the keys after all the help you have given me on this 5-lug coversion! :icon501:

Hi Gents,

GREAT NEWS! :D

With huge thanks to my buddies Steven Tory (Trophy) and Paul Botting the CL to 5 lug conversion process described in Post #1 of this thread has been confirmed. This weekend we successfully converted the right hand side of the car in my garage by first removing the wheel carriers, Steven then took them to his place to press out the CL hubs and then press in the 5 lug hubs along with new bearings (extra Single Malt for Steven!!! :biggulp:), and then everything was bolted back in to position.

Indeed the work is labor intensive, roughly 3 to 4 hours per corner for the complete R&R, noting that we are mechanically inclined Porsche enthusiasts who work on our cars regularly. However, this particular procedure might be best left to your local Porsche dealer or favorite independent shop. One will need a complete alignement after this work as well. In addition, it was determined that the 5 lug set up saves approximately ¼ to ½ lb per corner (i.e. the centerlock bolting system is heavier), also note that for comparable 5 lug and CL wheels, the 5 lug equivalents are lighter too (for greater weight savings)……more on this in another post.

I have included a teaser photo below, but I hope to provide a few more photos of the procedure and of the finished product in the next week or so. The sexy new Forgeline GA3-R wheels need to have some rubber mounted, the left hand side needs to get the same treatment (we are half done), and the car will be aligned later this week.

I am not going to miss wielding my heavy duty CL tools, prying off the delicate center caps, and getting covered with that sticky gray grease! This effort was worth it! :burnout:

Cheers!
Doug N

Bravo!

:cheers:

:thumbup:

Tremendous!

Awesome!

Thanks Gents, the car is back on the ground as of last night!

A string alignment is on for tonight and she should be good to go! Photos soon! :jumper:

Cheers!

Doug N.

Dang nice garage you have there!

Me wants a lift in my garage. Nice!

I love the MaxJax!!!! :thumbup:

Way to go on this... There are seriously going to be a few bay area folks doing this!

Hi Everyone!

SUCCESS!!!!

Ok, you will be very pleased to know that my 5 lug conversion was track tested on September 1st and the car performed perfectly. :D So those who wish to do the conversion can now "have at it" as per post#1 of this thread. Note from a previous post that the labor time for this work is 3 to 4 hours per corner plus a full alignment when complete. Also, for this conversion it does not matter what brake set up you have OEM steel, PCCB, or aftermaket because the wheels carriers remain the same (i.e. you don't have to change them out). Thus, for those who a wondering, the position of the hub face remains the same after the conversion, so similar wheel offsets are used.

Here are a few photos of the completed work for you viewing pleasure. Sorry I didn't have time to blast out to the mountains for a spectacular photo shoot (.....its been a busy week!!! ), so I did my best in my driveway.

The Forgeline 19 inch GA3-R's do look extra sexy in the 5 lug configuration. FYI: If you already have Forgeline wheels in CL, you can have Forgeline build you some new "centers" and you can re-use your rim halves to save some decent $$$ on your "new" 5 lug set of wheels.

Enjoy! :burnout:

Doug N.

PS. Feel free to PM me any questions you may have, I will be happy to help. :bigbye:

Here are a few more shots! :thumbsup:

Cheers!
Doug N.

Very nice - excellent write up as well
I am sure you just sold multiple kits
Car looks great

Best looking 2010 GT3 I have seen.. wow!!!!

You are making me question my car purchase now...

Are those 18's???

Thank you Sir!


Oh no....what did you buy mobonic?

Nope, those are 19's .....They actually look "big" for 3 piece track wheels.

Next week Porsche will raise the prices of the aforementioned parts..
And in 3 years will offer it as an option for the next GT series. :)

Doug well done mate! A pioneer!
I am happy that I contributed something small to this project, and I am contemplating making it a sticky just to bug them a bit. I know that they are reading us 24/7. :D

best post on 7 gt3 board EVER.
isn't there some award IB can present ?
say yr supply of Michelin slick blue stickers?

sharkey
if u do this mod on NorCal cars, let me know. I'll come by to see

Sticky. Do it.

The original price of less then 2K excl. labour still accurate?
How many hours of labour?
Anyone put a conversion kit in a box together yet?

Still happy with my CL's but good to know we are not stuck with them if they prove to be an issue later.

Doug- Your car looks awesome! I am thrilled this has worked out. A big project, hats off to you for tackling it.

Anyone in N Nevada/NE CA area, I know where this can be done, IM me ;) :thumbup:

Wow! You're my hero!!! :cheers:

Well done Doug, hopefully Porsche will listen to their customers and provide options on future models with regards to CL vs 5-lugs.

Rad is spot on with this. I had Apex send me some studs a couple months back. This thread got me motivated to go out and do some testing today.

As you can see, the thickness various from front to rear on both OEM and CCW.

Here are some approximate measurements I got of each wheel from the hub face to the bottom of the bolt hole:

Rear CCW: 41.3 mm
Rear OEM: 52.4 mm

Front CCW: 52.4 mm
Front OEM: 46mm

Here are some photos of the bullet nose 81 and 91mm studs. The 91's fit, but are really long and stick way out. Way too much extra thread on the wheel side.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/deputyd...7627586382250/


The only thing I noticed was that the 91's had a couple extra threads on the hub side. Not sure if it makes a difference or not. The 81's have plenty of thread to seat properly. In a perfect world I'd probably prefer the 81's had as many threads on the hub side at the 91's.

I will say that the customer service at Apex is awesome. They sent me three studs (61, 81, 91) at no charge so I could test fit.

As Rad said, the 81 seems to work best. You could probably get away with a 71, but I like the idea 4-6 threads showing after the nut is torqued down.

Doug,

We mentioned in a previous post we were looking at a solution that is easier on the wallet for folks looking to do this conversion. We can't do any better than purchasing the factory parts at Suncoast, but we can certainly help with wheels.....

We have worked with Forgeline to be able to offer special conversion wheel pricing in both 18 and 19 inch. Like you said, we can also help out folks who currently have Forgeline wheel and need new centers. Our Forgeline pricing will make the conversion a little easier and you will be getting an excellent high quality set of wheels! Specials in both 18 and 19 inch!

PM or email us if any of you are interested in a set of wheels! We will do our absolute best to ensure you are satisfied!

Cheers

Here is a strange question: Would OEM 997.1 GT3 wheels have the right offset to fit this conversion?

Great Photo's Doug.....

The conversion is time consuming but I can say that the finished product looks fantastic in person and as you would expect drives just like it did....

rlips - Stock 997.1 wheels would also work...

Great work Doug, thanks for trusting in me to help you out on this :) Now where is the key to the Scotch collection :D

What size studs did you end up going with? 71mm?

Thanks for your help SLOW ! :thumbup:



Thanks Mooty........hmmmm Michelin Slicks....OK! :cheers:

:thumbsup:Answers:

1) Suncoast prices as of last month
2) 3-4 hours per corner, plus full alignment - call it 12 hours X shop rate for a quick estimate
3) I have e-mailed Suncoast with all of the info and will ask them nicely if they could possibly do a a group buy for my fellow Rennlisters - I will report back on this thread. Note Jeff at Western Performance has offer special pricing for Wheels and Forgeline wheel center conversions - see his post below

Thanks for your help Pete, your technical info was instrumental in the success of this project! :bowdown:

Well golly thanks, but as mentioned previously I did have a good deal of help from the guys I called in for opinions and technical info:
Steven Tory (Trophy), Paul Botting (basic), John (911 Slow), Pete Hitesman (SavyBoy), Jess Lattin (Porsche Master Tech), Ric Knab (Suncoast Parts Manager). :bowdown:


I did the detective work (which wasn't really rocket science) and Steven and Paul also helped in my garage with the actual conversion work.

Again, special thanks to all! :rockon:

Thanks, I think you might be right Russ! :biggulp:

"Dog", you are absolutely correct I used the 71mm race studs and the fit with the Forgelines was perfect (1 to 1.5 threads to spare). The 81mm studs will be safer bet if you are not sure what wheels you might use. I wanted the lightest solution possible and had measured taking into account my specific wheel choice. :cool:

Thanks Jeff that is great.....you will no doubt make some of my fellow Rennlisters uber happy and get some new customers as well. :cheers:

rlips: No great question! The OEM 997.1 wheel sets will fit just as they on a real live 997.1 GT3 and will require the same OEM 5mm wheel spacer in the rear. :thumbup:

Thanks for that info Doug, that may be the tipping point for me. I want as much as a stock Porsche look for the street, with the option do access the many wheels out there for track use. Well done, I suspect there will be a rash of Centerlock wheels on the market soon.

Well done Doug :cheers:

Don't be silly, you know there isn't any key!!! :roflmao: Its open all the time!
I'd say though, its time for a wee trip (sip!) around Scotland! :biggulp:



Thanks, glad to help out! ;)

No worries!

Oh, wait a second......worries :banghead: .....who wants my perfect OEM Centerlock hub set ups and wheels? I need to pay for all of this!!!! :D

Cheers! :thumbsup:
Doug N

there's a guy on here who has converted a 7.1 into a 7.2...., maybe he want your wheels?

congrats, doug! you don't stuff around. let bidrawn publish this project.

Thanks Mate! :burnout:

A very "special" article on this interesting subject will written by me and likely be published in an another "Excellent" Magazine. :icon501: I will keep everyone posted.

Cheers!
Doug N.

nice one!

Yes, I think his handle is Omaha GT3 or something.

Simply superb and bravo.

So for around $800.00 to $900.00 per corner and then buy some new wheels. Thanks for the info.

Gents,
The collective talent and resourcefulness of the guys on this Board is something to behold. Great thread~although in the moderate track-day use that my car sees I haven't had issues with the CL's it is great that the effort was made to explore a viable option using all Porsche OEM bits. Cheers!

DJN, I'm interested in your center wheel and tools, please PM me for detail.

Thanks

Hi All,

I just arranged a RENNLIST Group Buy with SUNCOAST for those interested in doing the 5 lug conversion.

You will need two of each of the following ......plus bolts or studs/nuts:

997-341-605-01 Front WHEEL HUB $264.22
999-053-054-06 Front WHEEL BEARING $ 52.49
997-331-605-00 Rear WHEEL HUB $290.51
999-053-055-02 Rear WHEEL BEARING $ 67.17

On the listed parts above, this saves you over $400 off MSRP pricing and over $55 off the current Suncoast pricing.

Call Ric Knab at SUNCOAST at 877-923-1700.

Enjoy!
Doug N.

PM sent.

I still have the OEM Wheels and complete CL hub set up.

PM Me!

Cheers!
Doug N.

Doug that's amazing - well done!

I wonder if the mother land is watching and if so, what they are thinking.....

back to 5 lugs on the 991....????

Hi All,

Just a little update for you:

See the full Article in Excellence (Feb 2012 issue) "Five Lugs or Bust" on sale Dec 27/11.

Special thanks to the all Rennlisters active on this 997 GT2/3 forum and to Pete and Damon at Excellence Magazine. :biggulp:

Best regards and enjoy,
Doug N.

Good job Doug... I'll keep an eye out for it!

Well done my friend! Congrats on the write-up.

DJN- if case you plan to sell car u mite want to keep the wheels and centerlock stuff. Some people want everything stock. Mike

I received the preview email today from Excellence Mag. The "Five Lugs or Bust" definitely got my attention. Finding this thread today makes me even more interested in purchasing that issue.

Friendly Public Service Announcement BUMP!

I hate seeing CL incident threads. :surr:

Cheers!
Doug N

The CL's are my biggest concern with (eventually) getting back into the Pcar fold via a GT3.2. I think your conversion is the only way to go. CL's have just too many negative issues.

1) The 5-lugs system is lighter than the CL system
2) The 5-lug system is cheaper than the CL system
3) The 5-lug system is safer than the CL system

So, I don't know what's wrong with cheaper/lighter/safer, to keep defending Porsche's CL and accept it for what it is.

In any case, switching to 5-lugs is affordable on parts, one will surely need new wheels, but there are affordable and good 5-lug wheels.

5-lugs allow the use of spacers, to play with different tire sizes, balancing the car (adding front track with spacers), no special tools, no complicated and very prone to errors mounting procedure.

The CL wheels have good resale, so they help recoup the expenses of switching to 5-lugs.

The CL hardware could be sold in the used market, but I would place them in a trash can, rather than dealing with the liability of selling an used part, that could lead to a fatality and have to carry the liability that PCNA, VW Group and Porsche AG should have carried from the very beginning.

So how many rennlisters did the conversion?

I'm thinking about replacing the wheel hubs anyway end of this year (as a precaution after 2.5y of use). Maybe go all the way and go 5-lug. Only difference will be that I need a new set of wheels. Work and number of parts to replace seem the same to me.

Looking at the offering from Suncoast - http://www.suncoastparts.com/product//PK5LUGC.html "GT3 Center Lock Removal Kit" are the parts the same between the GT3 and GT3RS, who makes the hubs are they Porsche parts or sourced from another supplier. Seems to me that one could be opening themselves up to even more problems with substandard parts - I'm not saying that Suncoast would offer such, but the questions still come to mind.

Has anyone with a 7.2RS done this conversion that tracks their car on a regular basis. Aside from the obvious advantages, how was the conversion overall, any issues.

and.....

4) The 5-lug system is also easier for the general public to work on with simple hand tools.

I personally sold all of my CL wheels but kept the CL hubs and hardware.......don't know why.....perhaps some lovely decorative touches for the garage work space. :p


Also, DLJ if you are planning a move to a 997.2 GT3 with CLs be sure to do the 5 lug conversion right out of the shoot - then you only have to sell one set of wheels. :cool:


Cheers!
Doug N

Note that the OEM 997.1 hubs used for this 5 lug conversion are the same part number for both the 997.1 GT3 and 997.1 GT3RS.....therefore you should have no issues converting your 997.2 GT3RS 3.8 or 4.0. Also, all other parts in the Suncoast listing bolts and wheel bearings are OEM. This is a Porsche parts bin swap exercise - easy as eating pie!

I have done 15+ track events since doing the conversion with zero issues, including 6 days at Miller Motorsport Park- that is one fast and spectacular track.

Cheers!
Doug N.

this thread should so be a sticky

I like the idea of shipping the CL hardware back to Porsche AG with a rejection letter, and documentation on the reasons for upgrading to 5-lugs for the people that have safety vision and upgrades to 5-lugs.

I don't see the value of carrying the liability of re-selling used CL hardware in the used market, so it is dead weight. Better to ship it to the manufacturer, once Porsche AG get 10 of the same packages, they might start an internal conversation. This plus calls to PCNA, plus letters to PCNA, add coolant fitting failures, worn-out diffs, void warranties for Hoosier tires, void warranties for aftermarket parts, void warranties for running a DE/AutoX/track days, failing clutches, cracked mufflers, all these as part of your loyal support efforts to the brand.

Do nothing, and nothing will change.

Maybe we all buy Scuds and ship the GT3's to Porsche AG. I bet we make the front page of every financial publishing.

Rad, the picture of McQueen's salute on the other thread says it all.

Times have changed, the old guard is gone, It's no longer only about passion, it's about the all mighty $$: succeed or die. Not commenting, just stating the facts.

OK NJ-GT, great idea! I'll be first to step up and donate my CL hardware for this serious cause. They are already in a box ready to ship......

Let's get nine more Rennlist members to convert (or remove them from their broken car) and I will help coordinate to ship them back to Porsche at the same time. This should get their attention.

Anyone one have a connection to get the most appropriate shipping address?

The Rennlist Centerlock Throw-Back Movement (RCTM):

#1. DJN - Doug N.
#2.
#3.
#4.
#5.
#6.
#7.
#8.
#9.
#10.

This is a brilliant idea. If I had CLs I'd be in.

Do the center lock rotors work on the 5 lug hubs?

I have different brakes than gt3 I have 996 Turbo brakes....997 Carrera S brakes....my so called center lock rotors look like the 5 lug rotors visually speaking...but...not sure if something might be a few mm's different.

Mike,

It should work fine regardless of your combo. The places where the 5 red dummy lugs fit is where the lugs/bolts or studs go through. Note that in your case you will only have to order the 5 lug hubs and bearings for the GTS or Carrera S/996 Turbo for your specific case.

Cheers!
Doug N.

It's going to probably take 100 cars with wheels that fell off and carnage thereafter parked in front of headquarters. You could send cl locks here and there but they still making money off of you by converting to 5lug. We already have issues with coolant fittings which IMO is a worse scenario for trackies and they don't even glance at that. Mike

I do not believe they do

Hole size is different


Turbo center lock takes different rear rotor than non cl

Thanks Randy...they "look" the same...5 lug vs center lock rotor for GTS....but I wonder if the difference is a measurement like lug hole size or center hub hole size or a small difference in shape at the center of the rotor that the eye can't see?

I'd like to at least put on Giro Disc front rotors since they are slightly bigger, slotted and probably last longer...problem is Giro Disc doesn't make a Center Lock type of rotor for my car....and I've asked them to...but nope.:crying:

With the PFC set ups, the non CL lug holes are 16.7mm diameter and the CL drive pin holes are 15.7mm so there is a slight difference... Non CL won't work on CL as the drive bobbins don't fit firmly on the hats but the reverse may be fine as long as the lug threads clear the rotor hat holes...

^ Precisely!

Also, note that CL to 5 lug conversions have NOTHING to do with the brakes on GT2/3/RS. Mike PM me to discuss your specific GTS case.

Cheers!
Doug N

If the hole is larger than the stud than what takes the brake torque?

Let's step back to CL's for a moment Randy. Now do you think that the "drive pins" or "dummy lugs" as I call them are actually strong enough to drive or brake the car on their own? What else is helping them, or actually taking on most of the force?

I think it is a secondary safety, they have a purpose and there is a reason on a 997.2 Turbo there are centerlock specific rear rotors and non centerlock specific rear rotors......and yes the centerlock sepcific fits exact on a 997.2 GT3.

If installing a rotor with a hole larger than the stud was OK why did Porsche go through the hassle of machining two seperate pieces for teh same vintage car?

Non centerlock
99735240502 / 99735240602

Centerlock
99735240503/ 99735240603

Fair enough (one beer for you!).....but I think this is for positioning and Porsche knows there is MUCH force on the back of a 911 so best to over engineer. Torquing the CL bolt holds everything in place firmly. What is one piece of evidence that occurs when a CL bolt becomes slightly loose? One or more drive pins loosen because they can't take the drive or braking force.

:biggulp:
Doug N

Not sure Randy but as I'd previously mentioned, i was accidently shipped the 997.1 pccb hats with my front rotors and the holes on those were exactly 1mm larger... Considering the hats are screwed to the hub, maybe they transfer the braking force?? Being so close to the centre of rotation, the torque experienced by those screws would be far less at a guess...???

I don't even install those screws

They serve no purpose

:: ECS Tuning :: Center Lock Hub Conversion Kits
 

I spent some time researching this more in depth yesterday, and realized the need for four separate center lock conversion kits, as each uses slightly different components.

All kits have 20 brand new lug bolts included.

First, for GT3 models. All GT3 use the same rotor design, whether they were equipped with center lock hubs or not. This makes the conversion slightly easier, and gives you a great opportunity to inspect for excessive brake component wear. Either kit is compatible with PCCB equipment.

GT3 owners can use the early design 2008 and earlier hubs (as the original poster DJN has done).

This kit can be found HERE (Current Price: $1685.95)

All 997 Turbo models with steel brake rotors have a different design to the rotor dependent upon whether the car was optioned with Center Lock or 5 lug hubs. This increases the cost of the kit, as the correct rotors are included. However, if you are to the point where you need to replace your rotors anyhow, it's a good opportunity to make the switch.

Steel rotor 997 Turbo kits can be found HERE (Current Price: $2509.95)

997 Turbo and GTS models that originally came with PCCB equipped, however, will not necessitate a change in rotors, as the PCCB rotor is the same, regardless of hub design.

This kit is HERE (Current Price: $1655.95)

The final of the four kits is for 997 GTS models originally equipped with steel brake rotors. This situation is similar to the 997 Turbo, in that a brake rotor change is necessary when converting to 5 lug hubs.

More information on this kit can be found HERE (Current Price: $2349.95)

Hi ECSTUNING,

Thank you so much for your post! Nicely put together.

One question I have for Option #2....you state "GT3 owners can also choose to use the later 2010 and up hubs. These are the hubs Porsche installed on 997.2 GT3 and RS". My question is how can you use the "hubs Porsche installed on 997.2 GT3 and RS" when they are actually part of the original 997.2 GT3 and RS CL hardware?

Something is not quite right here. Perhaps there is now a new Part# for the older gen 997.1 GT3 and RS hubs?

Anyway, see photo below..... the "hubs" are the largest pieces in the photo (obviously, CL left, 5 lug right).

Cheers!
Doug N

DJN: I searched but did not find specific wheel sizes and offsets to be used with the conversion. There was mention of using 5 lug GT3 wheels with a rear 5mm spacer. Would you mind elaborating of updating post #1?

Thanks again for all your trailblazing in this conversion process.

It was a mis-representation of the PET system. My apologies, it has been amended.

Hi ChrisF,

You are most welcome!

Wheel and tire sizes, theoretical offsets for the CL to 5 lug conversion are precisely the same for 997.1 GT3/RS and 997.2 GT3/RS.

Note that the Gen 1 cars use a 5mm spacer in the rear, so the wheel offset on a narrow body for example, is actually 68mm, but stepped out to 63mm when combined with the spacer. If you are ordering new wheels just use the standard Gen2 narrow or widebody offsets as a guide. Offsets do not change as a result of the conversion.

For my narrow body conversion I used:

Forgeline GA3R wheels: 8.5x19et 51mm (-2mm from OEM) and 12x19et63mm (same as OEM).

Cheers!
Doug N

Whew! Thought I was losing my mind........:biggulp:

I'm very seriously considering converting from CL -> 5-lug because CL means …

- Fragile installation / maintenance procedure with potentially catastrophic consequences of getting it wrong (and hence, safety concerns)

- Ironically, more time spent changing wheels w/ a single nut than 5 w/ nuts.

- More tooling to lug to DE events

- Fewer wheel options

- Overall, a PITA

Thank you Doug for your write-up! If just for the cost of parts, I’d not hesitate to pull the trigger. But @ 4/hrs per corner that’ll double the cost. Perhaps a shop can do it in significantly less time? I have plenty of experience building cars (big projects, ground -up, etc.) so DIY is an option, but haven’t taken on this particular job and have little experience working on Porsche. At 4/hrs per corner, this is clearly an involved job so I’m not inclined to rush into it blindly. Any pointers to add’l info available?

Thanks,

-Roland.

P.S. FWIW, your car looks great Doug. The CL is to blingy for my tastes and I like the more sensible look of the 5-lug. Not a decision factor for me but icing on the cake should I convert.

Roland,

You can save some $$ by R&R the wheel carriers yourself like I did. Then take the wheel carriers to the dealer or independent shop to do the wheel bearing and hub pressing. Note you will need an alignment afterwards, but you wanted to have a nice track set up done anyway (right? :thumbsup:).


Cheers!
Doug N

Wow.....

What a thread!

Thanks to Doug and all who have made such valuable information available.

I just recently picked up a 997.2 GT3 and was looking to replace my silver wheels with black wheels still using the CL system. After reading all of this it sure makes me wonder... back to doing more homework.

Thanks Doug. Good advice. Any 3.8 RS owners out there who have gone this route? Any wheel recommendations? I like the factory or BBS motorsport look.

I don't see why everyone isn't doing this. "If" I buy a .2, which is not likely, this would be my first mod.

It's very expensive to change...I looked into it since I'm about to buy new track wheels....$2400 in parts, $6000 in wheels going the cheap OZ route for streets and track, $1700 in labor.....add it up!

Mdrums,

Remember to subtract the proceeds from selling your existing used CL wheel set(s)......

......then you will be happier! :)

Then you can Rock'n roll all night (....and party everyday! )! :rockon:

Cheers!
Doug N.

I did. And I would still do it. It's not like you're going to keep the CL wheels in your garage... You can sell not only one set, but your second set too and put that towards the purchase.

What Doug said. I will NEVER own of these cars with centerlocks. At least with the current design.

I can't find anyone that wants to buy my center locks. I've advertised them and talked to some but they are scared of them from reading all the bad press about center locks on the internet.

If all your guys convert the CL, there will be lots of CLs for sale....Supply >>>> Demand....I think the price will be pretty low.

Begrudgingly Agreed. I'm going to stick w/ CL, but only because of the cost to convert to 5-lug. $1,600 in parts (Suncoast) + ~$1,200 labor + $5k wheels + tax, and your lookin' at ~$8,500. I want to get a second set of wheels for track which is really not a factor here (can choose CL or 5-lug pattern) but that's another $5k for wheels / $2k for tires. So all said and done to get a second set of wheels if I go 5-lug conversion: $15.5k. That's more than I'm willing to spend.

Forgot to add -- for those sticking w/ CL -- found a good deal on a torque multiplier: Armstrong 64-830 for $395 / in stock.

http://www.wylaco.com/Armstrong-64-8...50-Ft-lb-64830

Yep...totally agree...this conversion is not as easy and inexpensive as some think.

I believe that the small amount of center lock failures have been user error. However with that said I WILL NOT buy another Porsche with center locks. If Porsche puts center locks on the new GT3 based cars and in a year or so I'm going to buy a new car I will switch brands no problem...I'm not married to the Porsche brand.

You can't figure in a second set of wheels/tires as part of the conversion. That's just silly. And you're not figuring in the money you would recoup by selling any current center lock wheels you own. Your number is way over inflated. Not to mention, are you running Michelin slicks??? What track tires cost $2k a set? And a set of nice 18" CCW track wheels will run under $3k.

You have about $3k to do the conversion. Plus the delta between the sale of your stock wheels and a nice set of street wheels. So really you're looking at about $5k. And you'd not only have 5 lug, but you'd also have a bad ass set of street wheels.

You guys are nuts for not doing it. Especially the track guys. Looks like such a pain in the ass watching you people in the pits monkey with these things. Regardless of the safety, I would do it for the pure convenience.

This ^ !

I did it for it convenience first, safety second (I never had a technical problem with my CL system) .....although, I never did like them to begin with.

Hi Guys,

I am a new sponsor and we are building full one piece carbon fiber wheels for the GT3 in 5x130 but I have been receiving a lot of request for the CL my question is out of the majority of Porsche owners with CL how many will convert and how many really want CL?

For our company the CL will require a complete new testing and validation process so I am trying to guage the overall market for CL.

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated and you can contact me direct at bill.koenig@carbonrev.com

BTW I own a 997.1 GT3 and I have had two 996 GT3's so I understand the weekend track routine and convenience of the 5 lug system.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Best regards,

Bill Koenig
Director of Sales & Marketing Carbon Revolution
www.carbonrev.com

despite...
 

the many shortcomings I will stick with CL 19" ... currently have HRE P40CL mounted.

Out of all of the 2010+ GT3s that I's seen this year, at DE and AX, I have only seen 1 conversion. People are obviously doing the conversion, but IMHO it does not represent a significant percentage of overall owners.(Even I dislike my CL, but I will keep them.)
If you are making a new wheel for the CL, consider producing an 18" for those who track.

Whoa there Andrew. You're not reading my post, just reacting to parts of it I think. Yes, I totally agree factoring in a second wheels is not relevant to a 5-lug conversion. This is exactly my point when I say “… not a factor here”. :confused:

Yes, if in isolation and no other projects or parts -- of course -- the conversion would be cost of parts + labor + tax + cost for replacement wheels (more like $4k for the wheels that I’d want).

However, in weighing in cost of a 5-lug conversion w/ the cost of second set wheels and tires, I'm looking at the total amount of money spent (i.e., budgeting which I hardly think is silly). So, for me, it comes down to 5-lug conversion or second set of wheels + tires. Would love to do both, but the $$$ figure starts to get into stupid territory for me.

I read you post. Ever after your explanation it still doesn't make sense.

You can sell your stock center locks and use those towards to the purchase of an aftermarket set of street wheels. My guess is that they are probably worth 3k. And you can sell your CL assemblies to someone in the cars and coffee crowd looking for a a little more bling. My guess is probably around $1500. You'd have no use for them anymore anyway, unless you plan on reversing the whole process at some point down the road. Which would be expensive and pointless.

Quality track wheels don't cost 5k. And track tires don't cost 2k. Your $15K OTD is way way way off.

I'm certainly not encouraging you to do it or not do it. Your choice. But your math is misleading.

In a nutshell:

So far I've found it about impossible to sell my center lock parts/rotors and wheels.

$1600 for 5 lug hubs and bearings and bolts
$4000 give or take for new 5 lug street wheels
$750 for new stock 5 lug Porsche rotors rotors
$1500 at least for labor..quoted 4 hrs per wheel
$300 new alignment

$8150 TOTAL...

Right now on eBay there are 4 sets of Turbo/GTS center locks for sale with no bids for weeks at $1500. There is a new never used center lock kit on eBay too taken off a car that was stripped for the Grand Am Conti series....$1600 and no bids.

If I could find someone willing to buy my center lock parts and wheels for at least $3500 I'd do it. I'd even swap out my CL stuff with a 2009-2012 car 5 bolt stuff.

Ebay them. Price it right.

I've got time to do that.....I could be changing brakes on a GT3 or playing with bullets and someones new gun instead of sitting in my office! LOL:rolleyes::banghead:

you've got the time. problem is Mrs drums says you can't come out to play today. :-)

Hello, i lost my CL wheel on track...
 

Hello everybody,
My name is Franck, and i'm new on the forum. I'm riding on track ni France and Europe whith my 997 gt3 MKII, and this week end, the right rear CL has broken on the catalunya track.So lucky, i heard a strange noise before, so i was riding at 40 mph when it happened, and the wheel has gone under the car, so there is not too much damages... BUT...
Of course, Porsche doesn't want to know nothing, cause i was riding with cargraphic CL wheelset...
They say that the problem is not the wheel, but thé CL system... It's so complicated to use, and not safe in my opinion.
so i Will make a conversion in 5 lubs, i think is thé only one solution...
Could you help me please to make this, and does someone who has done this could tell me if It's the good solution?
P.S : i'm so sorry for my english, but i Will learn...

^ pm me or DJN with regard to 5 lugs.

Bienvenu sur Rennlist Franck.

Good luck with the upgrade, it is straightforward.

I just happened to post your video on another thread yesterday evening : https://rennlist.com/forums/9891047-post238.html

Did you actually record on video the moment when it happened ? And picture of the broken part ?

Pictures of the hub, the drive pins, the wheel hub would be monumentally helpful in forming a factually based objective determination of why it likely happened.

Hello,
I'm so sorry but the video of the crash i don't have, because the recorder didn't have battery. But i have incredible pictures of the hub!
I'm far from office today, but tomorow Will send them.
Or i can send by email on answer at franck@unairdici.fr
Regards

The magic words. Email sent :cheers: :thumbup:

Keen to hear your take Savy once you receive them!

Franck84, welcome to the forum and so sorry to hear about your troubles! If you decide to do the 5 lug conversion, there are many guys here who will be able to help you with part numbers and any questions you may have! Glad to hear your damage was not significant beyond the hub damage.

Regards

Ok, got the pics but have not yet received back the reply to give me permission to post them.

OE rotors and the drive pins and hub show none of the tell-tale signs of having a loose CL nut. It was an instantaneous break. He did have aftermarket wheels, so someone had the CL nuts off and then reinstalled them. In my opinion, the most likely scenerio is that whoever installed the wheels overtorqued the CL nuts.

Therefore to be safe the car owner must now replace the other three hubs.

Car owner would be well served to have a 3rd party mechanic check the break-away torque of the remaining three CL nuts for a more definite diagnoses. If they are overtorqued, then the cause is inarguable.

Ah, I just got permission to post photos-

Pete thanks for effort. :cheers:

Franck84, welcome to the forum. I hope that after the conversion you will only post pleasant experiences.


Doug, I'm going to stick the thread.


Best

John

I am extremely paranoid now. It is happening without any warning or signs. Is it truly a user error (over torquing as being a common issue)

I was in Paris today and spoke with à Porsche manager. They Will send me someone to analyse the failure... I give you all the details.
Waiting this, does someone could contact me by email for the 5 lubs conversion?

Franck84, sorry about the trouble with the CL's. Glad you are ok, though.
Can you tell us how many track miles your car had at the time of the failure? And what type of tires you use on track?
Thanks

Hey guys, for those of you who have done the conversion first hand and know your stuff, can someone put together an email with the part numbers of bearings, hubs etc and email it to Franck so he can get it under way considering english is his 2nd language and he may not be confident to do it off the thread himself... Cheers...

Hi everybody,

First i want to thank you, this forum is really great, and the people specialy sympathic... I have receive the list of the parts for the conversion.
About the failure, my car have 15 000 miles, and have done around 12 track days without any problems ( no one exit from track ).
My real preocupation (It's the reason why i want to convert 5 lugs), Porsche doesn't say something else than "non oem rims"... Or i think that is not the origin of the failure, so i'm afraid. But excepted that the car is great !

Welcome Franck!!!! :thumbsup:

Since you have had a bad experience with CLs and now you are forced to do a hub purchace and R&R......it is best to do the 5-Lug (Doug-lug...D-Lug conversion) now.

Post your photos if you do! Or get myself or savyboy or 911slow to help you.

Best of luck!!!
Doug N

PS. Thanks John......you da man!

This is nuts, Porsche shouldn't build a wheel carrier that break even if it was over torqued!

Doug thanks!. I was without access and Mooty took care of it.
Franck has our emails and can ask for more details.

Our GT forums rock! :)

This is exactly the reason I am sticking to OEM wheels, tempted as it might be to get an extra set of OZ. The guy @ Porsche Aachen who always helps me out told me that non-OEM wheels = loss of warranty on all wheel related parts (hubs etc.).

The irony is that Porsche broke every single one of their commandments 2 years ago in the NBRG 24 hour when they showed us how great these gen 2 cars are with their RS entry... They ran aftermarket BBS wheels in 18s with slicks, they rattled wheels on and off and did F%k all greasing procedures and got by just fine... Its not that their system is tragically flawed but they are looking for excuses to dodge repairs as these failures result in significant body damage... Shame on them! :/

pleasure was mine

next I'm doing eight lug conversion like my truck. more lug more safe lol

DONE

Well, CL is just one big NUT to start with.:mad:

You're a gun Mooty!!! Awesome effort! :)

^ DJN should deserve the credit. he's the pioneer, i am the copy cat.

Totally agree mate, DJN is the star with this one! Just glad you were able to get this info to Franck. Didn't want to try and get it wrong considering I haven't done it myself :)

Well not really. If you figure in that after a race like this you fully replace hubs and nuts then it makes sense to abuse them like that.

SOS, two years after the CL's have been out and all the instructions and warnings. The shops don't care, and the owners don't care (splines not engaged).

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/g...dv-wb-win.html

^ LOL. Like ADV is a name that any serious track guy is gonna use.

The ironic thing is, CL will probably work on an abonination like that, 20" and boneheaded offsets (read: reduced thread bite) notwithstanding. So far the only catastrophic failures have been associated with track used cars subject to frequent wheel changes. How often do you think that franken-20" is gonna swap wheels?

I'm getting a little tired of being one of Porsche's center lock misuse good will ambassadors. In the past month alone, I think I have pointed out 4 cars with incorrectly installed wheels most of which came from dealer service centers. Each time, I politely walk the owner (if interested) through the proper techniques based on Porsche's service bulletin. 50% of the time, the owners think I'm some anal freak. That is, until they look up the picture of one of the catastrophic failures.

One dealer service tech went so far as to correct me and tell me that a partially pushed in pin was perfectly fine. I emailed him Porsche's own insert showing the proper flush orientation. It was followed my a massive "oh ****!" moment and a promise that all techs would be instructed on the proper methods. Too little too late IMHO.

I try to look out for my fellow car enthusiasts as I hope someone would do the same for me if I was a typical cars n coffee drover. Just getting tired of it and of the myriad of other problems that go along with these cars. No car is perfect but I would prefer to deal with the type of idiosyncracies that won't kill me or require me to fix things on my own dime which should have been at the factory. /rant

As I recently told Chris, when my car recently came back from dealer, 3 or 4 center splines were not engaged.

And damn did they put those little "RS" center caps on tight! I don't know how they got them on so tight, but I bent each one trying to get it off. I never use them actually - just put them on to make dealer happy.

Well said. My experience mirrors yours and I feel exactly the same.

Savy, I believe that people need to quickly learn that the old saying " you snooze, you lose! (a wheel... )" applies to the CL system and if they aren't interested in learning how to live with and use the system correctly, then maybe its time to change car or pony up for the 5 lug conversion...

Acccording to PCA, a recall has been initiated:

http://strongmail.multiview.com/trac...=50743d7ad3b8b

This is the link that came in my email, but it does not talk about the CL specifically. One needs to go through the steps and input year, model number etc.

It's the one that was issued last year where they changed the nuts and inspected the hubs. Nothing new.

Chris, I just got the email which stated "Porsche recalls now on www.pca.org - centerlock wheel recall issued by Porsche."

Went to the link. Still looks like AB01 as far as I can tell. If so, then this is not a recent recall or campaign.

Nothing new. Only Porsche recall is dated JUN 10, 2011.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/recalls/results.cfm

My bad :-( Having just been a lurker on the issue and not having CL's and just getting the email from PCA I thought it was timely.

Best one I heard was:

"no need to mess around with those splines. They will pop into place automatically when driving"

:surr::surr::eek::eek::to_order::soapbox:

...yes, usually as part of a flying rear wheel :icon107:

franck84 sent us these pics and I have permission to post them.


Another failure at the Nürburgring with his friend's non-RS GT3.
He was luckier as he didn't lose the wheel..

It was again the RR one and the car was running OZ wheels.
Their local Porsche dealer also refused to cover them under warranty.

Any resident engineer types want to take a stab at a post mortem?

Nope but there are definite signs of wear on rotor hat and dirt all over the secondary lock suggesting no covers are being used. Question is whether that wear on the hat is the result of this failure or the cause due to previous looseness... Leaving dust caps off and leaving such a sensitive system exposed to so much particulate contamination is asking for trouble imo...

Realistically, when people have these sorts of failures and post shots, it would be great if some info was supplied too... Ie. who has been doing wheel changes, procedure followed etc, etc... We all jumped to conclusions, blaming system failure for gt3de's car but he was nice enough to let us know what the underlying cause was, overtightening....

Over torquing perhaps, .....or the hubs have timed out (to the second!).

The most intriguing thing IMO is why only non RS's?

May be coincidence... Maybe most RS guys have had a GT3 before, done the tracking thing and know the importance of being precise in preparation for track whereas the non RS cars are more often bought by first timers (like myself), entering the market with no experience and complacency?... Who knows? Doubt its mechanics because the RSs have a more aggressive offset and therefore theoretically should place greater stress and strain on hubs...

Not knowing if it's really a coincidence just adds to the frustration of the whole CL BS.

Wish we had data on track time of the cars that have had failures and info on what tires were being used.

GT3 came out first, so maybe most of them will have more mileage than RS?

If only the RR hub is trouble, then changing a new one every track season may solve the issue??

My car have only been touched by the Porsche dealer and my tuning shop, but each shop has more than a few technicians that work there. Honestly, I would have never knew whether my wheels have ever being over-torque in their lifetime. There will never be a way to find out, unless the car has only been torqued by one person all along, and this is impossible.

I hear you paver but I think the greatest factors here are those centred around how and whom is installing these wheels... Savy, Izzone and Trakcar have all done dozens upon dozens of wheel changes, thousands upon thousands of track miles and are using very sticky rubber on aftermarket wheels and not a hint of an issue for any of them...

Porsche used aftermarket wheels with racing slicks, rattled them off and on and completed a 24 hour enduro without a problem...

Those are all examples of extremes of use way beyond what most will likely ever achieve without an issue... Doubt they would continue with the system on the next generation of car if they had concerns about its safety as the cost of the recall would be far greater over two generations of car as opposed to the one generation already in circulation... I think the user or service guy will have played a far bigger role in all these failures we are seeing than the system...

As I've said to date, the only failing from Porsche that I can see is that they chose to introduce a non fool proof system into a market where a greater than usual number of wheel changes are required as a result of how these cars were intended to be used... :(

Chris I agree, let's hope that Franck will shed some more light into this.

My understanding is that they've asked for an independent expert to examine the two failures. Also Porsche is sending someone from the technical dpt to look into it.

The more details we have the better..

911rox, I think it stands to reason if there are track-driving non-RS owners who don't handle their CL's properly then there must also be track-driving RS owners who don't practice proper CL procedure either. Why haven't we seen those failures.
Just a thought. Hopefully there will be more info soon re: the investigation Slow mentioned.

Hello,
On all that cases, the cars used Michelin pilot sport cup. It's exact that i don't use to control the exact torque of the wheels after each 20 min sessions, in the perfect specific process of Porsche CL. It's my 6th 911, and i ride more than 20 000 miles on track with all cars... Thé reality is that this GT3 have lost the philosophy of the 911. Go to the track on the road, ride fast, and back on the road. Just control the tires pression, and ride...
If you have to take Porsche staff with you to ride, only to change à wheel, well, so the GT3 is no longer for me with that kind of hub...
Waiting this, one independant expert has seen my car, and concluded that thé cargraphic wheel participate to the hub failure, but not only. The failure existed... And we don't know why. The only thing that is sure for Porsche is that they are not responsible.
On oct, the 18, one expert from Porsche AG Will come.
I expect this to tell you more, but i really want to change for 5 lubs, according to DJN...
Thank you su much at everyone for your precious advices...

Thanks for keeping us informed of your situation, franck84. We hope to hear what Porsche AG says on October 18.

Thanks franck84 for useful info.
I have not decided myself what to do yet. RS is now hibernating till next spring.
One thing for sure, I will never buy another car with CL.

Completly agree with you !!! I leave in the south of France and the winter is not very hard so we can ride around in many tracks...
I Will leave you more pictures when the gt3 Will be on 4 wheels !!!

Franck, the procedure does not require you to check torque after each session at the track, just to install the wheels as indicated before going to the track... I did 500km on track last Thursday and did not touch the wheels once accept for tyre pressure...

Did the expert test the tension on the remaining 3 wheels to determine if they were over torqued?? Did he explain how the aftermarket wheels contributed to your failure?

Regards Chris

Bump!

Franck, did Porsche give provide any feedback on the likely cause of your failure??

I believe an inspection was scheduled on the 18th??

Yeah. Definitely interested to know what Porsche said.

Don't want to be jumping to conclusions but considering the silence, most likely what we've previously had formally confirmed... an overtorque or undertorque situation... :confused:

I like the look of the CL's but this thread just convinced me to keep the 5 lugs! Getting GMG 130's (non-CL!)

If it ain't broke, don't fix it... ;) Stick with what you've got :)

Centerlock design and torquing
 

This is my first post here. I am considering buying a 997 Turbo S and discovered info about potential centerlock hub failures. I am also a corning G force fanatic so I started looking into Porsche centerlock design and reading about the rare but serious failures of them. I don't intend to present myself as a "know it all" here but, on the subject of fastener torquing, I have a lot of knowledge. Somebody in this thread nailed the problem. The wheel and hub connection is what carries the load. The hub itself is only there to make sure that the wheel is tightly connected to the hub. In other words the centerlock hub itself is not designed to carry cornering loads. The friction between the wheel and hub mating surfaces carry all loads. All the hub does is keep the wheel and hub together in this setup. This sounds simple in theory. I am going to qualify this statement later. Let's consider the threaded hub as a bolt and what happens when a bolt is torqued is the same whether it's a centerlock hub or a connecting rod bolt. When a bolt is torqued it stretches and bolts (not torque to yield bolts) are elastic. The bolt is designed to always want to return to it's original length and so it holds two parts together with a pulling force. When bolts are properly torqued they get longer. Stretch a rubber band and it always wants to return to it's original length and a bolt acts the same way, the properly torqued centerlock bolt is always clamping the wheel to the hub with a force, it's not just there in a static state. Problems arise with over and under torquing. If a bolt is under torqued the two clamped parts (wheel and hub) will begin to move against each other and the load begins to be carried by the hub rather than the hub and wheel interface. If that goes on long enough then the hub will shear and probably at the root of a thread. (I don't know how many words I am allowed here but if I run out of space I will continue in another post). The part of a bolt that is most prone to failure is the root of a thread. Normally there is a sharp angle there and that is not a good thing for bolts that are subjected to shearing forces (wheel and hub sliding against each other from improper torque). If a hub is going to break, it's going to break at the root of a thread because of improper clamping force. Over torquing stretches the bolt beyond it's elastic design point and the two clamped parts can begin to move against each other because the bolt is not elastic anymore and under torquing does the same thing although the bolt is not overstretched. Either way the bolt can fail by shearing. High performance connecting rod bolts such as those made by ARP have rolled threads rather than cut threads so the roots of the ARP threads have a small radius and that radius helps to prevent failure at that weak point. I don't know how Porsche hub threads are machined but I bet they are cut threads. Maybe the factory race hubs are made differently. Here is a statement that you can take to the bank. You cannot trust torque wrenches and especially torque multipliers to be accurate.
To be continued:

Interesting analysis. I'm looking forward to your comments to come.

Good first post.

Interestingly, you speak of rolled v. cut thread: Many people, myself included, have suffered from the shearing/breaking off or wheel studs (in the 5-lug setup). This happened to me 3 times last year, even though the studs were fairly new.

While speaking with the vendor, I was told that a new product was forthcoming (early 2012), but this time, the studs would feature rolled threads. Haven't broken one since.

More on Centerlock hubs
 

I used to work in quality control for a major production engine rebuilder and proper fastener torque was very important to us, so much so that we had a 15,000 dollar computerized torque wrench tester to assure the accuracy of our torque wrenches. All of our torque wrenches were checked weekly and the computer recorded the accuracy of the wrench and stored it by it's serial number. If the torque wrench began to show a pattern of inaccuracy it was either replaced with a new one or sent back to the factory for calibration. How many techs do you know that have their torque wrenches checked on a regular basis? It gets worse. All quality torque wrenches have an accuracy rating and all are not equal. The only type of torque wrench I will own is one that meets aircraft and military specs. Those are the most accurate. Within the mil-spec types there are some that are rated more accurate than others. I am a Snap On believer and of the Snap On wrenches, the most accurate are the electronic models and the old style ones with a round dial and a needle that indicates torque. As far as I am concerned, the "clickers", the micrometer adjust types, are unacceptable due to a high inaccuracy rating. And if somebody thinks that Macs or Matcos are better. all of these and Snap On are made by one of two companies, to the specs. of the tool company. There are two ways to torque a centerlock hub. One is to use a "normal" torque wrench and a torque multiplier and the other is to use a long torque wrench without a multiplier. The stated accuracy tolerance of the Snap On multiplier that is used for a fastener that torques in the 450-500 lb. range is 10%. In other words, if a hub is torqued to 500 lbs., it is possible that is is only being torqued to 450 lbs., with a new multiplier. Add the accuracy rating of the torque wrench to that which might have a 5% tolerance brand new and you have a potential problem. The only way to be assured that the torque wrench/multiplier setup you have is accurate is to check them with an accuracy checker and make a chart listing the true combined readings. Sending the tools back would not work because they can be off a lot and still be within factory specs. The other way to torque the hubs is to use a Snap On TechWrench, (digital with a 2% accuracy rating that will handle 60-600 lbs.). This is 4 feet long and costs over 1,300.00. If I am stuck with centerlocks I am not going to trust any technician to torque the wheels on my car unless he is using this tool, no matter what his reputation is. I am such a fanatic that I have taken my calibrated torque wrench with me when I have had tires mounted on 5 lug cars. I have no use for those I call "The Air Wrench Boys". Being particular and careful has always paid off for me. From experience I have found that the little unnoticed things will many times come back and bite you. Most bolt torque ratings are linked to the use of a certain type of lubricant. Usually something that torques to the specs of a centerlock hub will require anti-seize and not just any anti-seize. This is to prevent thread galling (metal to metal contact). Galling will cause a torque wrench to indicate correct torque even though the bolt is actually not torqued enough because galling causes the threads to lock together before the bolt is stretched enough.
My personal conclusion is that I would not want centerlocks, and, if I just had to have a Turbo S with them because of a rare color or option package, I would be ready to convert them to five lug wheels and hubs. If 5 lugs are good enough for almost all other high end high performance cars they are good enough for me.

For FFaust
 

When I was building high RPM race engines the parts that worried me the most were the connecting rod bolts and the valve springs. That was long ago and before the great technology of today. In that era there were no rolled threads on connecting rod bolts, and even though most of the time, if you used the best parts and torqued them right, not many rod bolts broke but some did and then all hell would break loose. As the years rolled by and RPMs increased the weakest links in engines began to "rear their ugly heads". When rolled threads appeared bolt breakage was greatly lessened but not eliminated. That technology came from the aircraft industry. Hub stud breakage has always been a concern of NASCAR builders. They use the finest steels and rolled threads (i think including inside the nuts). All of the studs are of large diameter and they go all the way through the lug nuts. The same setup is used on hard launching drag cars. When the top NASCAR teams get boxes of studs and nuts, they inspect the thread finish with a magnifier, check the pitch on them, hardness test them, and sometimes X Ray them looking for hidden flaws. There are no greater fanatics than the top NASCAR teams. I am going to attempt to attach a pic of studs on a NASCAR Craftsman truck. Notice the radius on the ends for guiding the nut on quickly.

Perfectionist - many thanks for the informative posts!

Best,

I do not think it is humanly possible to over torque the CL. You would need a multiplier and a pipe. How many ft lbs do we estimate it would take to damage CL's? 1000ft lb? The problem goes very deep.

Overtorquing
 

The only way to know whether something threaded has been over torqued is to perform some kind of structural analysis test on it such as magnetic particle inspection or X Ray inspection. Yes, over torquing may not be the problem. Under torquing definitely could be the problem. It could also be the thread design, wall thickness of the hubs, or the metallurgy of the hubs. When Porsche issued the service bulletin, I think that they specified higher torque specs for the new parts for some reason. Sometimes highly stressed parts that are made of the finest steels and appear to be strong enough for the job can still fail from slight improper torque. State of the art engine connecting rods nuts or bolts are not designed to be torqued with a torque wrench. They are tightened with a tool called a Connecting Rod Bolt Stretch Gauge. It is a c shaped aluminum tool that has a dial indicator on one end and a point on the other end. The indicator point goes into a machined depression on the bolt head and point on the other end of the gauge goes into a depression on the other end of the bolt. The nut or bolt is tightened with a box end wrench. When the specified stretch for that particular bolt is reached, the optimum clamping for that bolt is attained. As long as the proper lube is used this is a dead nuts accurate way to do it. With an American V8 rod bolt the stretch is around .005-.007. Even though the centerlock hubs appear massive, they are still going to stretch when massive torque is applied to them and the integrity of the wheel/hub union depends on the elastic properties of the threads and that depends on proper torque. Somewhere some engineer probably determined what he thought the torque of the hub nuts should be using some kind of hub stretch measuring device and maybe he got it right but with little margin for error.

The other way to measure over torque is to know the specified overall length of the part and compare that to the length of the used part in question.

Getting close to purchasing; gathering all of my data about possibly doing this conversion.

A quick question for all. Does the car come with the socket tool that is used to remove the centerlock nut? Obviously any breaker bars or torque wrenches are not, but I was hoping to save at least one expense.

Thanks

Yes, all 997.2 cars equipped with Centerlock wheels come with the CL socket only. You need to purchase a JUMBO breaker bar and torque wrench (3/4" drive) to deal with the CL's yourself. You will also need the owners manual suppliment for CL R&R as well some of the special Porsche CL Lube to give you half a chance of getting the job done correctly.

Cheers!
Doug N.

Excellent, thank you Doug.

OFFICIAL RECALL RELEASED Received yesterday by customers- official recall notice

If they are replacing hubs, see if you can finagle a 5 lug one instead. Can't hurt to ask..... Tell them you don't feel safe with their current setup :)

......nor does one want to be switching out hubs every ???? track miles when they time out..... again and again......

Hmm... this would be an interesting scenario...:corn:

Dealer told me "NO"... Technically they will only replace the rears only and it will be unauthorized by PNA. I wanted to say" but it is my car! "

Recall party at my dealer!

And then there was 4....

4.0!

:eek: Do they have enough loaners?

I felt left out when I went! Just me. I did see the black one the next day though. Niello did a good job on the work. Quite happy.

Not when I went! Haha! I had to hitch a ride. They offered to schedule me when they did have a loaner but I opted to just get this recall done and not wait.

FWIW, that orange 4.0l was just recently purchased from an RL'er, I believe. I know who owned it, and who owns it now, I know Serge's car, not sure the black and white. Didn't know we had so many 'round here!

You are suppose to get a loaner for the duration of repair.

I got the Panamera as a loaner... Really good sport sedan. Brakes and handles better than an E60 M5 (I drove it back to back for comparison), and surprisingly the V6 has just enough motivation. Rear seat sucks though. Not comfortable and cramped. Shame for such a huge car.

As a loaner.. i got offered Prius or a Mini Cooper... no P car.


Yes my dealer had GT3 party too.. saw about 5 of them when I was dropping mine off..

:rockon:

Recall letter from PCNA specifically states "Porsche has made it possible for your authorized dealer to provide you with a Porsche vehicle to drive". When making the appointment, I made it clear as a bell that I require such a loaner, though I have zero confidence in the word of my dealer staff based on past experience. Tomorrow will tell.

ok so I just put 150 miles of track miles past friday on the new hubs at the rear from the AC05 recall. So I am supposed to log this? This is stupid....

i am probably going to convert to 5 lugs.. as soon as my warranty expires this fall.
We can thank Porsche for making pretty centerlocks.

Ditto.

I bet CL's are not any weaker than an equivalent 5 lug. Porsche just had a design flaw or a bad run of parts in the beginning and now they are doing the timeout/maintenance requirement just to cover their ass.
Look at what Trakcar and Izzone did with their cars at Sebring...thousand of laps no problems and it is a rough, rough track.

As Trakcar/Izzone mentioned before, they saw a lot of user errors while putting CL wheels back on. It does require some cleaning, greasing, and inspection everytime you take it on and off.

Missing the point fellas... 2 months ago we all thought like trakcar and Izzone.... User error, user error... Recently even Izzone conceded that the CLs were now on his mind...

Why? Because Porsche, changed the rules with this recall, swapped cars to the latest RS hubs andimplemented a time out protocol of 4200 miles... If they were sorted, why would they need to be replaced every 4200(f)/8400(r)? I can't understand why people can't get their heads around the situation with the CLs...

If the RS parts were the solution, there would be NO maintenance schedule... Porsche will eventually send you all a glossy little insert for your manuals to confirm this and then hopefully we'll all understand that the CLs are farrrrrrrr from sorted unless you enjoy dropping $5-10k every 20 track days! :rtfm:

Chris, when you put 20K HARD track miles on a car, all components are on your mind.

Still between say 100K hard track miles in RS CL cars, minimal CL maint. And plenty of drunken over torqing, never any faillure or even parts damaged or replaced.

Some manufacturing defect affected the GT3's some wheels fell off. They replaced these now and the lawyers added a track schedule timing out hubs to cover their ass. If these 5-10 cars would not have failed, there would have been no mentioning CL's.

I had issues with wheel bolts stripping, studs breaking etc. with my 5 lugs. OK you need a 4' bar, but with a pedal stop I change my wheels by myself just as fast as 5 lugs and it is super easy. I had an impact gun before and had to charge it, etc. the big long torque wrench fits in a small box and no big deal to take with you. I really dont get the hate.

The only negative is cost to buy the tools and the grease, but if you are a bit careful you dab it on bare handed and i only use it when I go to the track and not even every time.

No real benefit to CL, I agree with that but to me no negatives either.
When I see wheels falling off RS cars that were installed the right way, I may change my mind and spend the 2K to switch to 5 lug, but for the moment you guys worry too much.

Pete, until 2 months ago, I was with you 100 % and you're correct, you guys have killed it with hard driving on those things and no failure... You guys were always my argument and example for CLs. Now, with this maintenance BS, doubt has crept in :(

I do hope ur rite champ because splashing $5-10k on hubs every 3 years aint my idea of fun...

Yes, I understand the doubt, but we have to be realistic about it being a manfucaturer defect that has been fixed.

If you dont understand how to lock a nut than, well you cant fix stupid.

If it really is a problem, than just convert over for the $2500.00 right? Why would CL replacement be more $$?
For now its all lawyer language to me. Like people freaking about Ice mode. If it exists you do something I dont. Remember every one being worried about that when a couple cars crashed blaming Ice mode??

Like people freaking out about coolant leaks. I mean if you are going to track your car for years and years stuff will break. Just run waterwetter or pin the stuff, but again, no 2010 hoses blowing yet!

I assume they will eventually.

If you freak out about CL, you should be freaked out about the other stuff more and buy a Corvette.

i dont think CL is weaker. or more maintenance prob.
i change five lug bearings and hub often too.
i swapped b/c i dont like grease on my hands/gloves/towels/shoes/floor...
i have 3 impact guns, i feel the need to use those power tools which i cannot do on CL
that's about it.
they all have problems.

CL have hidden failure modes...

Given the pubic information available there is no inspection procedure to determine if the CL need to be replaced (well now one could time out with age). One can torque to spec and have the splines set and still have the hub fail.

This could be due to prior damage (unseen), fatigue (miles), or other causes. Maybe I am missing some conversations but I am not seeing 5 lug wheels fail in anywhere in the same fashion, sure you can forget to torque or leave lugs off but torquing to spec and verifying all the lugs are in place seems like it prevents 99.999% of all 5 lug failures. With CL unless you have access to the internal inspection documents and understand how the CL was maintained one cannot really know if a torqued CL with the splines set is actually safe.

Life is a risk and tracking one's car is a risk, that said we do not track in flip-flops, no helmet, not roll bar, convertibles with 1000hp. There is some expected level of success for all of our mechanical components which figure into our mental equation. If one is not factoring in additional risk for CLs they are fooling themselves. Also for instructors, how can one understand the margin of safety for CL wheels without understanding the history, seeing the car with wheels off and understanding the torque applied?

I guess that is what it boils down to. 5 lugs have a higher margin of safety, CL clearly less (due to complicated procedures, hidden failure modes, limited inspection info and catastrophic failure modes).

I flew for the Navy for 8 years and understand margins of safety in complicated machines/systems. Clearly airplanes would not fly and cars would not race if we required an infinite safety margin so everything is in degrees.

Additional note....
* I will add there is a private (Porsche) inspection document floating around. If you do not have it, find someone who does and understand it. (BTW, I asked a porsche service manager (maybe at mooty's favorite dealer) for any inspection procedures for CLs they told me more than once that they did not exist.) The document adds additional complex inspection criteria to the mix but will give you the best chance of catching a hub problem early (I wish I had it or knew of the content prior to the failure).

The point is one cannot take a quick look at CL hubs and say good enough. There are a bunch of pieces working here but my read is... The wheel absolutely cannot shift on the hub, even a little, any indication of that means loss of torque at some point and the hub should likely be replaced immediately. The nut absolutely has to have proper grease (including the right kind) in the bushing area, this allows proper torquing, without this grease (and slipperiness) in that internal area which transfers force to the wheel you can think you are torquing to spec but you really may or may not be. There are additional pieces like ensure the mating surface have broad contact areas, etc. but one gets the idea.

My 2 cents.

I think we are forgetting why we even track our cars. It is for fun or to be a better driver or for the whole experience of it. I agree with everyone for their input.... Some say we worry too much and we do.... Some say every car/component has its problems Nd that is true. Some are victims of CL failure and fortunate enough to tell us their side of the story.

Bottom line... I think we all know Porsche didn't design this thing dummy proof or with big margin of safety.

Either we deal w this or convert to 5 lugs or go cry in the corner and drive a Prius and save the planet =)

Exactly Geoff... So well said...

I was an advocate of CLs so far as I felt that the failures were due to user error rather than system failure.

Yes, there have been guys here that have done 15-20000 miles on a set without failure, many times the newly implemented time out rate BUT all of this works on statistics, and effectively at 4200miles plus whatever margin Porsche would have applied, there will be statistically significant failures... If you fluke the set that lasts 50000 miles, you're laughing but if you fluke a weakened set that time out at 5000 miles and you've ignored the time out procedure yet have maintained them perfectly, well snap and you know what that means!

The implementation of a time out schedule means that beyond their stated time out schedules, you're playing roulette... Black, you win... Red, into the wall you go and as Geoff rightly pointed out, the system doesn't provide visible forewarning of a pending failure...

Agree 101% with Geoff.

Peter (Trakcar) sounds like the 90yo patient of mine who smokes 3 packs of cigarettes daily since teenager and then lectures all my other patients in the waiting room that smoking is not harmful as he is still living. (Peter, I'm sure you can take a joke.)

I know, I know...

But what is all smokers live to be 90?
No RS that I know of has ever lost a wheel. If you cant find it on the interweb it does not exist.

The GT3's that did fail had a manufacturing defect that is now getting fixed and I have not seen new failures yet. Now, this may change but so far I think drivers are scared of their CL's while they take much more risk driving to the track...

If you dont track a lot, than it is really a non issue.

Why let them spend the money and devaluate (maybe) their cars?

To me the only negative is the grease, but if you are careful you can change wheels without cloves but I wear them anyways and the tools cost you an extra $400.00. Other than that no biggie.

I do agree with Geoff that it is not idiot proof, but you cant fix stupid.
It's pretty simple really.

I would look at it a bit differently, one cannot apply backyard garage engineering to this system, tighten and go, so to speak. One has to understand how it works, how it can fail and really look after it.

(which is what I fault porsche for in the design, too complicated and just too different in how you have to think about it...The greased bushing in the nut that is critical to getting the right torque. How many folks deal with this kind of thing on a part that you touch often? The idea that you are locking the system together and any movement indicates you should spend thousands to replace hubs).

That is above stupid that is needing an expert level knowledge for the car to be safely driven on the track.

They should have done a better job in explaining it all in the manual, but once you know it should be OK to work with it. It specifies how to warm up your car etc. etc. etc..

The manual saying you have to go to the dealer to change wheels is completely idiotic.

5 lugs dont have that problem, but they have other problems, not saying I prefer one over the other but I personally like CL while understanding why others dont (specially you and about 10 others!) but I dont find it a problem that they are on my car and I am certainly not scared of using them now that the defect has been acknowledged and solved.

Geoff,
Is the document you mention the one that was posted somewhere here a few months ago with the side by side photos comparing what it should look like with what it should not look like?
Thanks

If the RS hubs are different than it will apply to all CL's one would think. I would expect all the cars are subject to failure and need the "safer" new hub- not just the 510 cars in this initial recall.

If anybody that's converting wants to give away your stock CL wheels, I'll take 'em off your hands free of charge.

They make great hose reels. ;)

Me, too! Seriously. Love to have a cheap second set OEM's in non-RS fitment.

And up until recently, the 90 yr. old didn't have CL's to kill him off... LOL

that fact that there have been any failures in this small of a population of cars points to CL problems. Given that 5-lug systems exist on 100's of millions of car and have few if any failures, and there have been failures in a population of thousands, or in some cases hundreds does not speak well to the CL design or it's tolerance for abuse in the real world.

Just because it hasn't failed yet doesn't make it good.
There should be zero failures in a system of this nature, and it's not like there are not examples of more tolerant systems.

Porsche designed this system for appearance, but as a wheel fastening system, the subsystem's primary purpose, it should not be subject to nuance or incorrect/customer applications.

Porsche's stated faith in the system (legally motivated or otherwise) is basically an admission of a substandard system for which everyone should be concerned, those driving the cars and those sharing the track with a wheel that is subject to fly off based on the competence of our fellow hobbyist.

The system is crap, quit defending it, expert systems with low application tolerances are not what is needed in the real world and it's existence endangers the driver of the vehicle and all the cars and drivers at the same track. Since any wheel leaving the vehicle at a high rate of speed becomes a projectile capable of untold damage to it's surroundings.

100+ years into the automotive industry we should not have to worry about this sort of failure. There is no advantage to the system and there are documented disadvantages, I don't see why anyone considers this system something worth defending.

The system has many Con's, please list the Pro's for me and then tell me that very very short list of Pro's is worth the hassle.

And BTW IMHO this has screwed the resale value for any seller of these cars in the future - since a knowledgable buyer will have to consider the replacement cost. So saying this bad design has no effect on you is simply ignoring that fact that this system will be understood and absorbed by the markets for the full life cycle of these cars.

It's a high cost, complex, low reliability and novel system that should've never been brought to market. And we're all paying for it one way or another.

my $0.02

.....now tell us how you really feel! :burnout:

Good on ya Dave, I can't dispute any of this, unfortunately CL's on the 991 GT3's confirms that Porsche thinks otherwise. What now?

^Porsche responded with a 4200 track mile CL maintenance ie pass the buck to the owner. Wonder if that has opened in Porsche lore with all the 5 lugs with this maintenance schedule - air cooled and on- my bet never!!! Mike.

i have several sets, but i plan to mark them up and sell for lots of money :evilgrin:

deleted

Im not defending it, just explaining that I dont mind them; never cursed at them like I did at no radiator screens, blowing coolant hoses, breaking Transcooler valves or non lasting PP and clutches. Those all need addressed.

We can agree to disagree, I pointed out why I like it and why I dont. I am not affraid to run my car with CL, never had a problem and I just hate to see people getting scared into 5 lugs for mo reason, if they prefer it because it is cheaper on tools, more choice of wheels, of just because they are familiar with it, fine.

LOL

Porsche must know something we dont if the offer them oem, I mean it would be so easy to offer 5 lug oem and CL upgrade for the people who want them. Its like that on some models right?

If we see them as an option appear, I think we have our answer. If they appear OEM, than to me that says problem solved.

Peter
The key will be to see if there is any difference between 997 centerlocks and 991. With the coolant fittings, they made a change to the fitting and did so quietly without saying anything.

Hello Everyone,

I recently purchased a 2010 GT3 from WA and I don't have the full story on it's previous use. I have been well versed in the CL problems, and thanks to everyone here for that. The car had low mileage (6700), is CPO, was pristine, and the price was right so I jumped. For peace of mind, should I have the wheels pulled and have the CL's inspected? If so, any suggestions on where to bring the car in the SF Bay area? Thanks again to all the great information provided here. - Peter

Hi sfo_pete, nice car! Congratulations and welcome to Rennlist. Mine is guards red too. Being a 2010, your car may be subject to the current AC-05 recall. The dealership you choose should be able to tell you if it has already been done, if the prev. owner didn't tell you. If it hasn't, get that taken care of. That is the first step.

Congrats sfo_peter, great ride:thumbsup:
as mentioned the recall may apply to your car
inspection was well justified because you never truly know how a previous owner may have worked with the CL's and of course you now will have to follow the maintenance guidelines for CL's
As Trakcar asserts, I too have no issue with CL's I took delivery of my car in April of 2010 and she has 80% of her time on track or spirited road use and never had an issue with around 22000kms total travelled.
I believe principally because the correct procedure for wheel changing as always been followed since day 1. That said I have had the recent recall performed as well but there was no noticeable or abnormal wear on the hubs that were removed.

Enjoy your car

modoz, is my math right...you have close to 10,000 track miles on your CL's? That's a pretty good data point showing that the sky is NOT falling. Glad to hear they are working as intended for you.

Hi Paver

Yes I took delivery of my car when the original torque requirement was in place

One her first track day I noted a creaking in the rear left hand wheel, the dealer actually ran the track day and took care of the car. They were intrigued as you couldnt sense anything while the car was standing nor with it on the hoist. after all the settings were well above finger tight!

I cannot remember the original torque settings I think 350Nm or 400Nm

Anyway at the same time the factory issued a review notice increasing the torque setting to the new setting 600 or 650 (again I think). I also bought the factory endorsed big stick and they sent this off for recalibration at their cost too.

The hubs front and rear were replaced under warranty and life began on these new hubs at around 1200 kms. that said the lion share of track time was on these replacement hubs running slicks so yes I feel secure in their operation and reliability.

I always wonder if a number of people who had the problem were never given the updated torque settings which was around May/June 2010 I think. Because certainly if you didnt take this into consideration then I could easily a problem following.

From one side they are a bit of a PITA to change but I do also like the cool factor. I gather we couldnt have the Cup versions for the road due to TEV and other Road Safety legislation requirements requiring multiple action locking mechanisms for such systems.

To my knowledge there were no failures of CL's here in Australia

BTW, I only had rears replaced under AC05 - you guys getting fronts replaced too?

Hello Paver,

AC05 was completed by "Dealer 1963", so at least I know that is done. (Along with AB01, WA49, WB47, WC08 and WC09) Anyone from the bay area with some thoughts on a dealer, please chime in. Best - Peter

sfo_pete,
Do you plan to track your car frequently? If no, you are good to go since the recall has been done. Just let the dealership you choose take wheels on and off as needed. If you do plan to track frequently, have someone you trust totally to do you're wheel changes and be certain they are very familiar with two things:
1. How to install the central locks.
2. They have the center lock wear assesment document at their disposal and understand it

Or better yet, buy the tools, study the procedures, and do it yourself.

Mike, thanks for the info. That's interesting that you got new hubs a long time ago. Does that mean you don't need to go in for the current recall?
I'm OK with mine too. If I would just pony up and buy another socket to put on my breaker bar it really wouldn't be so bad to change them. I just don't like to use my torque wrench to break them so it takes me a bit longer that way.

Thank You! I will want to track eventually, advice appreciated.

Hi Paver

I actually also got the recent recall for the rears as well, that said no visible issues with the ones removed. But there were supplied before the release of the RS which from what I understand must have come with some form of design change.

No issues of significance though, except now we have the maintenance programme

Hi, Peter! (Yet another Pete on RL?) :)

I was going to post that you should absolutely have all four wheels inspected however, since you noted that all recalls (including AC05) are up to date then I'd say you were fine if you trust the dealer that did AC05. Me, personally, I would do it. I like to get a baseline on most of what I do in life so I have something to reference from and considering how hotly debated our cars and their wheels are, I'd put eyes on all four wheels.

Like you, I purchased my car from out of state and I'm the third(!) owner with some anecdotal evidence of its previous drivers. I had a Porsche dealership local to the selling dealer do the PPI and required them to send hi-res, clear and well lit pics of hubs, bolts, wheels (both sides)... everything. With less than 2,000 miles on the odometer over two years the engine report, the tech's notes to me, and the above mentioned pics convinced me the car was barely used. Not so anymore! It's my daily driver and have put 7,000 miles on it since last August. Just put 150 track miles on it Friday on with new hubs. I had 500 track miles on pre-AC05 hubs that looked perfectly normal when they came off last month. Post #342 here; https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=72550 I know my car is a babe in the woods regarding track mileage but talk to me this time next year. She's going to be well worn this track season. ;-)

Having said all that, I can't recommend a dealer to go to in the Bay as I'm landlocked near Sacramento. Niello here has done good by me and I've been giving all sorts of reasons to kick me off their property! I ask a lot of questions and want to see everything. :)

Finally, a huge congrats on your purchase! Enjoy that machine to your fullest and you won't regret it. I think even the most jaded of us will admit that there are reasons why we ended up in one of Porsche's GT cars. They are fantastic cars!

+1

kormaster, AC05 definitely only addresses rear hubs however, like the original manual supplement there is a provision in there that requires CL's to be replaced based on condition regardless of mileage. That's always been there, so it's plausible that some folks had there fronts done as a normal means of complying with the manual based on condition. I dunno...

U can verify that coolant fittings been eradicated? U have pics to say it was rectified? Mike

I have done the full recall because my CL's were loosing torque in track conditions. I could never get to the bottom of it, so I just did the full maintenance front and rear. Now, it wasn't like it would come loose, it just required checking after each session, usually one or two wheels would need tightening the first session after a wheel change. Everything was nominal, so it remained a mystery.

Dealer claimed there were new released CL nuts in January. Anyone know for sure?

new paper weights

^did you convert to 5 lug?

997 II GT3: Even after the recall, the right rear CL occ came loose on the track and the solution was to tighten it slightly higher than 444 ft-lb torque.

Hello everybody,
After some weeks of silence, i come back. After the failure, i have just changed the RR center lock by my own (because Porsche just said i had not the OEM rims). But After the recall, Porsche took my car and changed the 4 CL and rims, and paid me the precedent operation...
I ride 2 Times, but on a track, à little rock just came between the brake and the rim and completly cut this one.
So i'm looking for a front OEM CL wheel for my gt3 non RS. Does anyone sell it ?
Thanks

Im CL free now - I can sleep at night now.

kormaster is fast learner. and even got john to make him some CCW.
i like it.

Read new Pano interview with AP - centerlocks on 991 are significantly different "almost the same as cup car" and old design failures are user error

They continue on because, and I quote, they are "racey"

The interview is hilarious - 3 pages of defending PDK which I think was shoved down his throat and he is trying to make the best of choking on it.

OT: stout is the man and in case he reads this - I am eagerly looking forward to the planned Pano and PCA website changes - relevance is inevitable - good on ya!

Joined the 5-lug club!

I have to say I found this thread very helpful in making my decision on switching to 5 lug.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7314/8...c099947c_c.jpg

Excellent! Another believer! Well done! :thumbup: :cheers: :thumbup:
Doug N

Hi all, I'm thinking about doing the swap thanks to the info found here.
Before I order new wheels, can anyone confirm that offset is not changed at all in this conversion? i.e. is the track measured hub face to hub face identical? Many thanks.

offset is same

Thanks very much. Off I go to order some parts.

Heres a better picture.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5455/...d3a63dc1_c.jpg

suncoast porsche has a kit to do this.

like mooty said offset doesnt change. It is the caliper size clearance issue if you are going 18s. For example, OZ 18s wont fit. For 19s 5 lug wheels, just make sure it clears pccb size. That should clear all gen2 steel/pccb - probably less issue compared to 18s

I got my parts from suncoast. Make sure wheel bearings magnetic side faces the speed sensors.

18" BBS clear, OZ also had both. pccb is same size as steel on .2
Did not tead the whole thread, maybe missed something.

Why would it be different for 5 lug?

Trakcar - u didnt miss anything. You are right. I was just talking about cheap OZ 18s.. non clears for 5 lug converted gen2 cars. Only 19s clear for OZ 5 lugs.

Custom 18 wheels will fit obviously..

I think 24chromium ordered 18 inch 5 lug OZ for his gen2... wouldnt fit. I tried ordering OZ challenge 18 5 lug.. only clears 997.1 steel brakes. Whats the caliper size on gen 1 steel - it is the top to bottom length that doesnt fit... not the width or distance to the spokes i think.

On my CCW, i barely clear top/bottom length of calipers in the front.

not sure why, we tried wont fit

We finally found a CL advantage LOL

OZ Challenge 18" Center Locks fit PCCB. Not sure why they would not as PCCB yellow and Steel Red calipers are the same and both PCCB and Steel rotors are 380mm. Maybe some of the other 5 lug OZ wheels will not fit GT3 and RS cars. OZ Challenge also has 5 lug wheels too.

CCW is another great option for wheels...Forged and right under $3k.

I wanted OZ challenge 18s for 5 lug setup but I was told caliper wont clear. I was bummed out. WHy does CL version clears and 5 lug doesnt clear. Pointless to find out as one of RL member tried already.

My only affordable option at with time contraint was CCW. John was great delivering to CA in 2 weeks. He even next day over nighted for me all ready to go. For now, Ill get more CCW as it fits my budget for 18s.

997.1 cast iron brakes are 350mm, not the 380mm of PCCB.

997.2 they're both 380 I think, when they went to the two piece rotors.

Done 5 lugs conversion. Forgeline 19" GA3R wheels. Took some pics at Ridge track yesterday. Perfect weather for a good track day!

Congratulations!

Well done Targa Tim :D......and I must say those wheels are Uber sexy. If anyone is looking for a narrow body set just like these (also in 5 lug and 19inch)....PM me.

Cheers and Happy Canada Day July 1st,
Doug N

Love the color!!!

I was witness
OZ five lug won't cleat

The way the .2 should have come out of the box. Great looking car w/ these!

I'm following this thread with great interest. Kudos to DJN for having done the pioneer work.
I need advice on which 18" wheels will clear my 380mm steel brakes ? I know CCW C10's work (thanks to kormaster), but unfortunately there's no reseller in Europe.

Any custom wheel company can make the wheel for you. HRE, Jongbloed, CCW, Forgeline, Finspeed, BBS etc. - All these companies will probably ship to europe. Just costs money =)

To make it easy, just make sure you ask them to make 5 lug PCCB (or 380mm brake) clearance on 997.1 GT3 in either GT3/RS offset (depending on what you have). Thats it.

Looks like I'll be converting converting to 5-lugs. I got my eye on the CCW S2K wheels. I'm gonna be running NT01s but what are some street tires that I can run on those wheels?

Does anybody know of a DIY for converting from CL to 5 lug or from 5 lug to CL?

Im retiring my GT3 from track duty and want to convert back to centerlock.

what's the advantage of switching back to CL?

Easy.....Just R&R hubs and substitute CL hubs for the 5 lug units you have. Read my posts at the beginning of the thread to see what is necessary. Or PM me if you can't figure it out.

A better and easier solution may be to find a local guy with a 997.2 GT3 who wants to switch from CL to 5 lug. In this scenario you can trade wheel carriers (front and rear) with the hubs intact and save both labor and the cost of destroying sets of wheel bearing when the hubs are pressed out in the standard method.

You can also trade wheels too! Win-win if you can find a taker.....post an ad.

Cheers!
Doug

Damn. I want to do this on my new 2010 and need to read through 22 pages. I can install the parts as I have a 20 ton press in the garage for just such jobs. Just a lot to read to make sure I get this right and get the right spec wheels and understand why I need both types of lug nuts as I will go with studs.

some wheel lug holes are cut cone shaped other ball a
seat sealed. Porsche usually are ball. as long as u know what wheel an lug hole shape, u only need one set of nuts. but if u have many different wheels, then .....

I only have ball shaped.

Good job!

Add one more to the list. Should never have waited this long!

^good job and good choice of wheels.

gnarly, forgeline GA3R!

Well done! :thumbup:

its coming.

i see water marks... clean that thing

Help Needed
 

Okay…much bigger job than expected. The hub and bearing fit in your hand and seem so innocent…

A couple of questions:

1. Rear: Is it possible to remove the rear axle without complete disassembly of the suspension hardware and basically removing the entire carrier/upright? The aluminum subframe limits the ability to angle it down and slide it out like I did on my 964. Can't imagine race teams do this; there must be a way…

2. Front: It appears that the entire corner needs to be removed, including the entire strut from the car. For cars with Front Axle Lift:

(a) it is a pneumatic system, not hydraulic, correct?
(b) Can the little line at the bottom just be disconnected without causing any issues?

3. I have read (need to search more) that camber range can be shifted by "rotating the tops". What is the available range in each position, and do most people do this? I think my desired camber is about -2.5, +/-.5 degree.

Thank you!

Eric

Rear axle: Not sure about the newer cars, but on mine, just disconnecting the lower shock mount allows to move the whole wheel carrier up, which gives you enough angle to slide the half-shaft front and down.

Disconnecting the sway bar might also give a bit more room.

Hey Eric, It Steven here (Via Doug) Keep us updated.

I have been keeping some notes and will post a summary when complete. At this point, I have all four corners off the car; the rear hubs are being converted today, and the front hubs converted tomorrow.

My research indicates that these axles are quite robust and failures are rare. However, since they are such a bear to remove and reinstall, to further enhance reliability I am taking the steps of having the CV's cleaned out and re packed with NEO HPCC1 synthetic CV grease prior to reinstall.

General impressions:

1. Big and complicated job, one that in many cases needs to people to be sure items are handled and supported properly.

2. Performance doesn't come free. This car is 17 years and technically four generations newer than my RSA; the performance leap is significant, but so is the complexity.

3. There are very fragile little parts that you really need to be careful with, such as the PASM potentiometer mechanisms. Those are fine; however, there is also a very small vacuum line connection to the Brake Booster that isn't. It snapped off at the housing when trying to remove the axle. And it wasn't the first time - when the previous owner had the LSD upgraded apparently they broke it off and tried to repair it with JB Weld. Trying to effect a proper fix, as it appears replacing the line may be complicated.

4. I was able to remove the front carriers without removing the struts. This required removing everything else, then carefully sliding the carrier down the strut. My car has Front Axle Lift, so it required removing the 12mm nut connecting the line near the bottom of the strut in order to slide the carrier off.

5. Question: Who knows the best/proper tool for removing tapered ball joint and toe link pins? Holy crap; my first experience with these and they are a bitch to remove. There is supposedly a simple tool that essentially squeezes them and presses them out, and I need to get one before I attempt this again.

^ hahaha, glad i have my tech do it. it should take a pro 9-10 hours for all corners. you now know why i hate front lift so much ;-)

This might be what you mean
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...L._SL1500_.jpg

Awesome, Francois; thanks! This should work for the toe link pins, but not sure about the rear ball joint pins. I asked the tech that installed my bearings to press out the ball joint pins (RSS recommends these as single use items and they had an upgraded version available); however this type of separator couldn't handle the job, he had to take it to "the big press".

The fronts are a whole different story altogether as the pin is buried inside the channel of the carrier. Perhaps an advantageous design in terms of suspension geometry, but difficult to access.

They may have advantages, and I am certain these were over-torqued, but they are such a pain that I'm not sure I'm a fan.

I just finished the conversion on my own RS. I want to thank the OP for this thread.

By the way the Front wheel hub 997 341 605 01 now has a new part number 991 341 605 02 - and the best part is that its cheaper too!

I ordered all my parts on Sonnen and saved ~$500-$600 vs. the prepackaged kit prices. The part numbers are all listed.

+1 on kudos to Doug, and also to Steve, as both were responsive when I ran I to questions. I need to update my entry with a few things that I discovered.

I also found that there is a new 991 part number that supersedes the 997 part and it is indeed cheaper. But the ones I received were also bare steel; I opted to return them and reorder the 997 parts with the black anti-corrosion coating.

Thanks for the part # update info. Well done, another happy conversion! Unfortunately, Porsche is keeping all of my (and Steven's) royalty payments. Perhaps they will invite us to lunch or a test drive in the 918 ? :roflmao:

Great job Eric, did you get your front wheel offset issues sorted with the wheel manufacturer?

Cheers!
Doug N

Happy to help out...... :thumbup:

Would it be possible to convert to 5 lug (from centerlock) without pressing out the hub and bearing from the carrier and merely unscrewing the 5 wheel "locating knobs" on the hub and replacing them with studs?

unfortunately no...

Thanks - why not?

There is not enough material in the centerlock hub for the studs to thread into. The small 'locating knobs" are not to support the wheel just to impart drive forces, or braking forces.

Thanks for the explanation - shame, it would have been so much easier!

u will NOT regret. this is the mod to do.

Thanks for the explanations; money aside, if dealing with a second-hand 16k mile car, with unknown tracking history, and given Porsche's enhanced track maintenance schedule, would it make sense/be prudent to do the hubs, bearings AND wheel carriers at all 4 corners?

Typically not necessary to replace the wheel carriers. They can be inspected by your shop to make sure. Fortunately, they aren't crazy expensive if you need them (Sunset Porsche).

I'll be doing the inspecting! Bearing play is easy enough to detect - would you expect to find cracks in the wheel carriers or should they be x-rayed? I believe the cost is not insignificant - all 4 run $4-5k

If you are concerned you could do a dye test to the carrriers, places like Pegasus Racing supplies sells kits.

Don't worry about checking bearings, you need new ones when you put the new hubs in (Old ones are destroyed when removing the old hubs)

Completely agree: once the decision is taken to do the 5 lug conversion, bearings and hubs replacement is a given - my question was how necessary/prudent is it to also replace the carriers while everything is apart, considering Porsche now recommends doing the carriers as part of track maintenance. RedRSA seemed to think that typically it would not be necessary. Unfortunately, those four carriers add up to quite a lot of mullah.

unless it s a pure track whore, I don't see how the carrier gets damaged. and like other stated, dye test could get u peace of mind

Thanks for your reassurance

With the 5 lug conversion decision taken for a NB 997.2 GT3, which are the wheels of choice? Fikse, BBS, Forgeline, HRE or Porsche OE 997 GT3 Gen 1 ? I'd prefer to run standard (or close to standard) wheel widths/offsets 8.5 & 12 x 19 with 53 & 63 ET with OE rubber size. The car is not intended as track only; it'll probably be 90% street. Given overall cost of conversion+wheels, I want to do this once and do it right (quality is v. important to me) so I'd prefer to do forged not cast wheels (which would probably rule out the Porsche OE 997 GT3 Gen 1 wheels).

and CCW, Finspeed... but no need to convert if it's 90% street

Understand 5 lug conversion is more of a must for the track but do all my own maintenance, regularly pull wheels for brake fluid change etc and want the peace of mind and straightforward simplicity/reliability of conventional 5 lugs - to me the centre locks are a fashion statement I'm not interested in.

90% street use???I'd just leave the CL's on. 5 lug conversion is for guy that mostly track the car.

If you just want top shelf light weight better than oem wheels look at Forgeline, HRE, BBS. 9x19 et46-48 12x19 et60-63 will fill the wheel well nicely.

I'm partial to Forgelines. My car is torn apart right in the process of the 5-lug conversion. Looking forward to finally driving it again. Its been more than a month given all the work thats been done.

i have ran CCW, BBS and forgelines. they can all be ordred in the right offset for your car.
i am partial to BBS..

Thanks for all your advice

OT: looking to trade my black CL for silver
https://rennlist.com/forums/for-sale-...in-silver.html

Anyone have their silvers sitting around gathering dust? If not interested in a trade, price? Need wide-body offsets, BTW.

The 5 lug hub kit is based off of 997.1 stuff. The 997.1 NB rear wheels are ET68 but run with a 5mm spacer. The 997.2 CL are ET63 and no spacer. When you install the 5 lug hubs on a 997.2, do you still need to net out to ET63? Need to know as I look for some street wheels.

63mm is the spec so when using the .1 wheels I use the 5mm spacer. But I leave the 5mm spacers on with my 63mm track wheels, for a net of 58mm and it looks/works great.

when you put 7.1 hub on your 7.2 CL conversion, the face of hub should be at same place. so when you pick offset, you would take similar offset as if you didn't change from CL to five lug

for example i run same offset on my RS before and after convsersion

Top of the class Mooty!

Also, the same on a non RS.....and if using 997.1 GT3 OEM wheels oneuse must also use the factory 5mm spacer in the rear to "make" a 63mm offset.

Cheers
Doug N

Thanks to Mooty for the guidance on fitment and overnighting me a pair of hubs after learning Porsche was globally short.

Before:
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3854/...2b024786_c.jpgUntitled by FJSeattle, on Flickr

After:
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5615/...b4e1c7bc_c.jpgUntitled by FJSeattle, on Flickr
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5598/...fdbd1998_c.jpgUntitled by FJSeattle, on Flickr
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3927/...312cffc3_c.jpgUntitled by FJSeattle, on Flickr

And of course helping me source the OEM bar:
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3954/...df4c9172_c.jpgUntitled by FJSeattle, on Flickr

sexy

Nice.

What are you doing with the Centerlocks? I'm looking for a silver set.

Keeping them, thanks.

God damn fj your car is beautiful!

I have my OEM 7.2 GT3 set (happy to sell them as no use for them), I fitted the red ones

Don't think I can use those. I need wb offsets for the GTS.

I guess you mean the wheels, not the centre lock nuts

Correct, wheel offsets.

It has been done. PCCBs + centerlocks have been deleted!

Attachment 1360187

nice ngng
what's the width of those rays?
and 500mm studs hahhaha? is that why tony said you need 50mm spacer....

F- 19x8.5 +52
R- 19x12 +65

nb fitment lol. cars going to sharkwerks tomm, will have them look at the spacer problem :)

u will understeer off T2 at TH.
8.5 front haha.
what is alex doing to your car?
turbo?

lol, better than oversteering off t2. pinning all the lines, new pipes, shifter cables, crank pulley. dunno what else

Good to see this has really taken off as a preference....

A customer made this swap with help of parts dept at dealer right after he took delivery - what 4 years ago. CL are a PAIN

he does this thing called 4.1
perhaps you should inquire.
tony c approves it.

Which size studs did you use? 81mm? Those red nuts from APEX as well?

Wheel offset/backspacing? Which car to select to get the correct wheel?

See post #78 for questions and answers on the stud sizing.....those look like 81mm (the safe bet). I used 71mm with 1 to 2 threads to spare using custom Forgelines with no issue.

All wheel offsets for 997.1 GT3 (narrow body or for wide body) are valid. If you are having custom wheels made you can toss the OEM 5mm rear wheel spacers and build the wheel properly (i.e. for narrow body rear make it with offset 63mm, instead of 68mm).

Cheers
Doug N

For those who care... thanks to Mooty to helping with right BBS E88 specs. He may know them better than factory. And some info on the right stud length.

These fit my 997.1RS perfectly, no rear spacer needed:
Front: 9x18 et 50 0288274 ctr (1” and 8”)
Rear: 12x18 et 42 0288107 ctr (3.5” and 8.5”) no spacer

Also, on studs. It seems the .2 centers may have thicker bolt holes, not drilled quite as deep. Hence why Mooty like 200000mm studs (100 I think actually). I have 82mm bullet studs and they are perfect with about 10mm of thread showing front and rear after being torqued. You COULD get away with 90mm front, maybe slightly longer and the bullet nose would be flush with the wheels. however, if I were to do this with OEM wheels it would look a little goofy as the studs would be sticking out. I went with the Tarett studs with MSI nuts this time around. seem much higher quality than Apex. Similar to MSI studs I think but have a nice shoulder to torque into the hub.

Hot tip: clean your hub holes. Go to snapon.com and order a 14x1.5 thread chaser tap for all of $5 shipped. It must be the cheapest snapon product in existence. This will clean up threads without cutting them.

^ tarett studs are made by msi.
msi does both

I had to go to full thread race studs because even 91mm studs were barely fitting the E88s.

^ ur center is not the same as spyerx.
7.2rs EE88 ctr are much thicker. that's why i run 100+

Is the Cayman center as thick as the one for my RS or Spyerx's?

like Chris'

I have my 80mm apex bullets if you want to test fit.

Hold on to those for me as I'm sure I'll pick up some gold E88s for the CS. :D

Cost of switching out center locks on 997
 

Is there an approximate total cost of switching out the center lock wheels on a 997? Both total cost and net of resale of old wheels (if there is a market for those). Thanks.

well the 5-lug kit is like $1750 at suncoast. You figure about 9-10hrs of labor, then of course you need new wheels, say $2000 for OZ.

so about $5,000 before you resale CL stuff?

if you are ready, i have brand new in box wheel bearings and hub for this conversion.

So are a set of take off CL wheels worth about 5K?

No Sir, bank on somewhere where in the $2400-$3000 range.....if I remember correctly I sold mine for $2500.

Cheers
Doug N