6.7 liter new Ford diesel -- anyone using it?
03-20-2011, 11:56 PM
#46
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Really? It's that difficult to add 5 gallons of fluid to the tank every 5,000+ miles. This urea fluid is already sold at service stations around here.
Mercedes-Benz, Audi, and BMW already use this technology in their Clean Diesels. A Huge DPF (diesel particulate filter) used to burn away pollution is Old school and a waste of fuel. Like going back to a carburetor on your GT3.
Mercedes-Benz, Audi, and BMW already use this technology in their Clean Diesels. A Huge DPF (diesel particulate filter) used to burn away pollution is Old school and a waste of fuel. Like going back to a carburetor on your GT3.
Some vehicles require it between 2-3 tanks of fuel, and others require it during oil changes.
The vehicle's computer will not let the truck start if the additive is empty.
Some vehicles actually drop torque when nearing empty.....
This system also adds upwards of 400 pounds worth of computer, tank, lines, hoses and fluid.
This is just another problem waiting to happen on these newer models once something breaks....
Dodge cummins is free of this system except for their cab chassis models 2010+
Im looking for a 2009 dodge cab chassis as i just have no faith in this last resort emissions fix.
My duramax diesels are all 2007- in my fleet too....
Soon i may need to resort back to gas....
03-21-2011, 12:00 AM
#47
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We just bought a 08 Ford 450 Lariat and a '09 Pace 40' trailer (48' with gooseneck). I hope the truck does a good job, I should had read this thread before!!
we will tow two cars, tires, equipment,.... both units were in perfect, almost new, conditions. the truck has a 24,000 lb tow capacity and we think is a much better truck than our '04 2500 Dodge Ram.
we will tow two cars, tires, equipment,.... both units were in perfect, almost new, conditions. the truck has a 24,000 lb tow capacity and we think is a much better truck than our '04 2500 Dodge Ram.
03-21-2011, 12:22 AM
#48
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The urea system adds an additional expense on top of fuel and servicing practices.
Some vehicles require it between 2-3 tanks of fuel, and others require it during oil changes.
The vehicle's computer will not let the truck start if the additive is empty.
Some vehicles actually drop torque when nearing empty.....
This system also adds upwards of 400 pounds worth of computer, tank, lines, hoses and fluid.
This is just another problem waiting to happen on these newer models once something breaks....
Dodge cummins is free of this system except for their cab chassis models 2010+
Im looking for a 2009 dodge cab chassis as i just have no faith in this last resort emissions fix.
My duramax diesels are all 2007- in my fleet too....
Soon i may need to resort back to gas....
Some vehicles require it between 2-3 tanks of fuel, and others require it during oil changes.
The vehicle's computer will not let the truck start if the additive is empty.
Some vehicles actually drop torque when nearing empty.....
This system also adds upwards of 400 pounds worth of computer, tank, lines, hoses and fluid.
This is just another problem waiting to happen on these newer models once something breaks....
Dodge cummins is free of this system except for their cab chassis models 2010+
Im looking for a 2009 dodge cab chassis as i just have no faith in this last resort emissions fix.
My duramax diesels are all 2007- in my fleet too....
Soon i may need to resort back to gas....
I think You will probably need to resort to gas if you don't want to deal with urea and your Diesels.
03-21-2011, 01:41 AM
#49
We just bought a 08 Ford 450 Lariat and a '09 Pace 40' trailer (48' with gooseneck). I hope the truck does a good job, I should had read this thread before!!
we will tow two cars, tires, equipment,.... both units were in perfect, almost new, conditions. the truck has a 24,000 lb tow capacity and we think is a much better truck than our '04 2500 Dodge Ram.
we will tow two cars, tires, equipment,.... both units were in perfect, almost new, conditions. the truck has a 24,000 lb tow capacity and we think is a much better truck than our '04 2500 Dodge Ram.
Diesels are huge engines with enormous forces -- they need to warm up and cool down. Always better to start a diesel 10 minutes before you need it. Avoid plug-in tuner packs -- these lead to unreliable performance. If you're in cold climates, get the block heater (it's already in the block, you just need the wiring) and it will add miles to the life of the engine.
I'm curious about the references to the Spartan aftermarket tuning product. I've not found any product -- short of a full Banks kit (expensive, but bulletproof power) -- that doesn't end up causing problems. I bought an Edge and had three different Ford techs at dealerships across two states tell me they had 6.0 PowerStrokes with Edge come in on tow trucks as regular as sunrise, so I left it in the box. Better to waste $500 than pour good money after bad and the crazy thing -- the 6.0 does everything just fine in stock trim. The claim of the Edge was an "economy" mode that would reduce fuel mpg, but again, it only took some googling to find numerous owners saying "if you can fine the gain, let me know, because I've done 5K miles and seen zip for my money."
The urea system adds an additional expense on top of fuel and servicing practices.
Some vehicles require it between 2-3 tanks of fuel, and others require it during oil changes.
The vehicle's computer will not let the truck start if the additive is empty.
Some vehicles actually drop torque when nearing empty.....
This system also adds upwards of 400 pounds worth of computer, tank, lines, hoses and fluid.
This is just another problem waiting to happen on these newer models once something breaks....
Dodge cummins is free of this system except for their cab chassis models 2010+
Im looking for a 2009 dodge cab chassis as i just have no faith in this last resort emissions fix.
My duramax diesels are all 2007- in my fleet too....
Soon i may need to resort back to gas....
Some vehicles require it between 2-3 tanks of fuel, and others require it during oil changes.
The vehicle's computer will not let the truck start if the additive is empty.
Some vehicles actually drop torque when nearing empty.....
This system also adds upwards of 400 pounds worth of computer, tank, lines, hoses and fluid.
This is just another problem waiting to happen on these newer models once something breaks....
Dodge cummins is free of this system except for their cab chassis models 2010+
Im looking for a 2009 dodge cab chassis as i just have no faith in this last resort emissions fix.
My duramax diesels are all 2007- in my fleet too....
Soon i may need to resort back to gas....
I am leaning towards Ford, but I think all three are far more truck than anyone could possibly need in even the most severe conditions, so that brings it back to costs -- operating costs, mpg, depreciation, initial purchase price and resale value. I'm starting to think the Dodgey V8 in 2012 could be the win. Of the 2011 models, is any one of them a clear mpg winner?
Wow! I'm not calling BS on this but I had the Spartan Diesel Technology Tuner with the DPF delete pipe and cold air intake and best My 2008 6.4l crew cab 4X4 could manage was 15 mpg unloaded hand calculated. Pulling my 24 ft aluminum enclosed trailer with the GT3 (7000#) dropped the mileage to 8 mpg. Sneaky thing that the spartan tuner does is screw up the on board fuel mileage calculator! The Lie-O-Meter on the the dash said I was getting 21-22 mpg unloaded. They've been called on it on several diesel boards.
However I agree it runs like a raped ape with the 275 tune
However I agree it runs like a raped ape with the 275 tune
If the "Spartan" can turn an '08 Super Duty into the best of both worlds (mpg and power) with reliability, then I'm interested.
I have an 08 f250 4x4 crewcab with the 6.4 I use to pull my turbo and our cattle(and everything else) with the B/W turnover ball. Tom is right the 7.3's were bulletproof the 6.0 not so good then navistar got heavy involved with the 6.4 and it's been bulletproof except for the poor fuel economy (federally mandated junk on the exhaust). However that can be fixed with a spartan tuner and the dpf/cat delete which I have had on my truck and If I drove like grandma I would get 22+ mpg, but average 17 to 18 unloaded and 12 to 13 loaded.
I have considered the new ford and have many friends that have them but realistic mpg are the same or less than what I get with my 08 and with the tuner set for towing (210 hp) I can dust them. The new ford does ride much smoother offroad and is VERY nice inside the cabin (electronics) so I do see one in my future!
I have considered the new ford and have many friends that have them but realistic mpg are the same or less than what I get with my 08 and with the tuner set for towing (210 hp) I can dust them. The new ford does ride much smoother offroad and is VERY nice inside the cabin (electronics) so I do see one in my future!
Also, I've found the '05 and later 6.0's are the reliable donk -- I have 70K+ miles with zero failures and I've seen other owners report 100K+ miles with nothing more than replacing the turbo or the EGR manifold, etc. Relatively minor. Funnily enough, I have a friend who runs a roadside diesel service business (dozens of trucks servicing 18 wheelers on the side of the road so they have minimum down time.) He does tow trucks and commercial light freight ... he says he makes a killing out of ****ty Fuds and he is impressed by Cummins in the Dodgeys ... but he then goes on to explain how "all the Dodge needs" (to be reliable to 100K miles) is ... and then goes on to list half of the major components under the hood, including rebuilding transmission components like the transfer case and the rear suspension and bearings ... we all judge by different measures!
03-21-2011, 02:20 AM
#50
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Carrera,
IMHO as far as Fords go the 6.4 is a superior engine to the 6.0. The problem is the EPA has passed such stringent standards for emissions that fuel economy has suffered. To get around this Tuners such as Spartan Diesel Technolgy have developed tunes that allow you to remove the DPF (diesel particulate filter) which is a large heavy apparatus that ignites diesel injected into the exhaust system to burn off these emissions at ~2400 F. This "cleans" the filter. This happens once or several times per tank of diesel depending on load, quality of diesel, ect. You basically put in place of the DPF a straight pipe with bungs welded in for various sensors. Problem is this is sold "For offroad use Only" and if caught carries a heafty FINE.
Most tuners after being installed leave a footprint in the computer so even if you return it to stock the dealers can dectect and likely void your 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.
The advantage of the Spartan system is it leaves no footprint. So theoretically you could screw Ford out of warranty service you don't deserve.
IMHO as far as Fords go the 6.4 is a superior engine to the 6.0. The problem is the EPA has passed such stringent standards for emissions that fuel economy has suffered. To get around this Tuners such as Spartan Diesel Technolgy have developed tunes that allow you to remove the DPF (diesel particulate filter) which is a large heavy apparatus that ignites diesel injected into the exhaust system to burn off these emissions at ~2400 F. This "cleans" the filter. This happens once or several times per tank of diesel depending on load, quality of diesel, ect. You basically put in place of the DPF a straight pipe with bungs welded in for various sensors. Problem is this is sold "For offroad use Only" and if caught carries a heafty FINE.
Most tuners after being installed leave a footprint in the computer so even if you return it to stock the dealers can dectect and likely void your 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.
The advantage of the Spartan system is it leaves no footprint. So theoretically you could screw Ford out of warranty service you don't deserve.
03-21-2011, 03:11 AM
#51
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the cab/chassis commercial grade diesel dodge require urea every 2-3 tanks, not sure about ford or chev, but with same commercial classification i wouldnt be surprised.
The civilian pick-ups however only require urea during service intervals except for the dodge.
For the foreseeable future, it appears adding urea will be the standard until new technology comes along. (except the dodge pick-up)
With the current price of diesel fuel, the diesel option, the amount of oil required for diesel oil changes and eura refills it really makes one consider how much driving has be done in order to save over a gas version......
Long term ownership is key to making it cost effective and sometimes one just needs the additional torque for hauling so cost is not a factor....
The civilian pick-ups however only require urea during service intervals except for the dodge.
For the foreseeable future, it appears adding urea will be the standard until new technology comes along. (except the dodge pick-up)
With the current price of diesel fuel, the diesel option, the amount of oil required for diesel oil changes and eura refills it really makes one consider how much driving has be done in order to save over a gas version......
Long term ownership is key to making it cost effective and sometimes one just needs the additional torque for hauling so cost is not a factor....
03-21-2011, 11:11 AM
#52
PJ I just bought a F250 Diesel Lariat loaded and I love it. You won't be disappointed. Ford is aggressive on their pricing and GM isn't. I tried everything to give GM my money and in the end it was a 4-5k difference on the two.
03-21-2011, 01:45 PM
#53
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Just noticed this thread,
If this helps, I am in the tow truck business, have had many fords, gmc's, and much bigger trucks as well. In my opinion, unless you know a great deal about diesel motors and have the electronics to repair them, dont waste your money. Diesel is much more expensive than gas (at least in my part of the country) and also the mileage you get is not that much better. I recently traded in an 03 F450 with a 6.0 deisel turbo, was going to get the new 6.7 ford but ended up going with a 2011 F450 with the V10 motor. Much smoother, quieter, great torque, only downside for my purposes is that the diesel motor weighs about 800lbs more, so when I have a car on the tow truck, its weight is pulling the rear down and the front up more than Im used to.
Try the new V10 from ford, it is a good buy in my opinion
If this helps, I am in the tow truck business, have had many fords, gmc's, and much bigger trucks as well. In my opinion, unless you know a great deal about diesel motors and have the electronics to repair them, dont waste your money. Diesel is much more expensive than gas (at least in my part of the country) and also the mileage you get is not that much better. I recently traded in an 03 F450 with a 6.0 deisel turbo, was going to get the new 6.7 ford but ended up going with a 2011 F450 with the V10 motor. Much smoother, quieter, great torque, only downside for my purposes is that the diesel motor weighs about 800lbs more, so when I have a car on the tow truck, its weight is pulling the rear down and the front up more than Im used to.
Try the new V10 from ford, it is a good buy in my opinion
03-21-2011, 02:07 PM
#54
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Thread Starter
Just noticed this thread,
If this helps, I am in the tow truck business, have had many fords, gmc's, and much bigger trucks as well. In my opinion, unless you know a great deal about diesel motors and have the electronics to repair them, dont waste your money. Diesel is much more expensive than gas (at least in my part of the country) and also the mileage you get is not that much better. I recently traded in an 03 F450 with a 6.0 deisel turbo, was going to get the new 6.7 ford but ended up going with a 2011 F450 with the V10 motor. Much smoother, quieter, great torque, only downside for my purposes is that the diesel motor weighs about 800lbs more, so when I have a car on the tow truck, its weight is pulling the rear down and the front up more than Im used to.
Try the new V10 from ford, it is a good buy in my opinion
If this helps, I am in the tow truck business, have had many fords, gmc's, and much bigger trucks as well. In my opinion, unless you know a great deal about diesel motors and have the electronics to repair them, dont waste your money. Diesel is much more expensive than gas (at least in my part of the country) and also the mileage you get is not that much better. I recently traded in an 03 F450 with a 6.0 deisel turbo, was going to get the new 6.7 ford but ended up going with a 2011 F450 with the V10 motor. Much smoother, quieter, great torque, only downside for my purposes is that the diesel motor weighs about 800lbs more, so when I have a car on the tow truck, its weight is pulling the rear down and the front up more than Im used to.
Try the new V10 from ford, it is a good buy in my opinion
03-21-2011, 06:12 PM
#55
Just noticed this thread,
If this helps, I am in the tow truck business, have had many fords, gmc's, and much bigger trucks as well. In my opinion, unless you know a great deal about diesel motors and have the electronics to repair them, dont waste your money. Diesel is much more expensive than gas (at least in my part of the country) and also the mileage you get is not that much better. I recently traded in an 03 F450 with a 6.0 deisel turbo, was going to get the new 6.7 ford but ended up going with a 2011 F450 with the V10 motor. Much smoother, quieter, great torque, only downside for my purposes is that the diesel motor weighs about 800lbs more, so when I have a car on the tow truck, its weight is pulling the rear down and the front up more than Im used to.
Try the new V10 from ford, it is a good buy in my opinion
If this helps, I am in the tow truck business, have had many fords, gmc's, and much bigger trucks as well. In my opinion, unless you know a great deal about diesel motors and have the electronics to repair them, dont waste your money. Diesel is much more expensive than gas (at least in my part of the country) and also the mileage you get is not that much better. I recently traded in an 03 F450 with a 6.0 deisel turbo, was going to get the new 6.7 ford but ended up going with a 2011 F450 with the V10 motor. Much smoother, quieter, great torque, only downside for my purposes is that the diesel motor weighs about 800lbs more, so when I have a car on the tow truck, its weight is pulling the rear down and the front up more than Im used to.
Try the new V10 from ford, it is a good buy in my opinion
Maybe fleet or other commercial buyers have access to older engines?
Also, in the higher rated Super Duty models (450, 550) which are pretty much only commercial vehicle sales, the diesel is the only engine available and it's detuned to preserve the transmission. Again, maybe there are non-consumer options that I haven't seen.
Still and all the same, I agree with the advice to resist being drawn into buying a diesel for the wrong reasons. I have a (very wealthy) friend who operates a roadside diesel maintenance business (they can do everything up to transmission replacement in a truck stop to keep fleets in service and on the road.) He advises against the diesels unless you have a need.
Pros:
* mpg when towing (call it 10-12mpg versus 5-8 gas when heavily laden.)
* durability if you intend to keep a truck and tow for 100K+ miles
* resale value (the diesels are preferred and command higher resale)
* drive under warranty or extended warranty (100K emissions coverage includes the turbo, etc.)
* stump pulling torque for off-road 4x4 4WD travel or fun
* ***** enlargement
Cons:
* much higher up-front purchase price
* diesel isn't cheaper than gas any more
* noisy, smelly, require warm-up and cool-down
* extremely high repair costs are a real risk
* heavy engine results in worse ride from stiffer front springs
* slower throttle response
03-21-2011, 07:10 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
The trailer is just as important;
Alu light.
Many plie tires
Pointy nose no wider then cab with bubble as close to the cab as possible.
Airline track in the floor for precise D ring positioning.
Electric winch
Important aftermarket stuff for truck;
Rear axle airbags to level truck and trailer, depending on weight.
150Db wake the dead airhorn (How else do you clear cell phone uders out of the left lane?)
Diesel Aux tank in the bed, so you can fill up in less expensive states and you only have to stop to pee.
Alu light.
Many plie tires
Pointy nose no wider then cab with bubble as close to the cab as possible.
Airline track in the floor for precise D ring positioning.
Electric winch
Important aftermarket stuff for truck;
Rear axle airbags to level truck and trailer, depending on weight.
150Db wake the dead airhorn (How else do you clear cell phone uders out of the left lane?)
Diesel Aux tank in the bed, so you can fill up in less expensive states and you only have to stop to pee.
03-21-2011, 09:55 PM
#57
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bperry you are correct that the lie-o-meter after the spartan makes you think you are doing great until the trip meter tells you different. However I have hand calculated it many times and have been very happy with my 1400.00 spartan and bypass purchase/install. I have never run the 275 tune only on the 210 tow tune and it has never missed a beat. This is not my daily driver only used to haul things.
03-21-2011, 11:07 PM
#58
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bperry you are correct that the lie-o-meter after the spartan makes you think you are doing great until the trip meter tells you different. However I have hand calculated it many times and have been very happy with my 1400.00 spartan and bypass purchase/install. I have never run the 275 tune only on the 210 tow tune and it has never missed a beat. This is not my daily driver only used to haul things.
03-21-2011, 11:15 PM
#59
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Pros:
* mpg when towing (call it 10-12mpg versus 5-8 gas when heavily laden.)
* durability if you intend to keep a truck and tow for 100K+ miles
* resale value (the diesels are preferred and command higher resale)
* drive under warranty or extended warranty (100K emissions coverage includes the turbo, etc.)
* stump pulling torque for off-road 4x4 4WD travel or fun
* ***** enlargement
Cons:
* much higher up-front purchase price
* diesel isn't cheaper than gas any more
* noisy, smelly, require warm-up and cool-down
* extremely high repair costs are a real risk
* heavy engine results in worse ride from stiffer front springs
* slower throttle response
* mpg when towing (call it 10-12mpg versus 5-8 gas when heavily laden.)
* durability if you intend to keep a truck and tow for 100K+ miles
* resale value (the diesels are preferred and command higher resale)
* drive under warranty or extended warranty (100K emissions coverage includes the turbo, etc.)
* stump pulling torque for off-road 4x4 4WD travel or fun
* ***** enlargement
Cons:
* much higher up-front purchase price
* diesel isn't cheaper than gas any more
* noisy, smelly, require warm-up and cool-down
* extremely high repair costs are a real risk
* heavy engine results in worse ride from stiffer front springs
* slower throttle response
03-21-2011, 11:24 PM
#60
Three Wheelin'
PJ - You may have already checked but I know a number of commercial customers in the NW who have been pretty happy dealing with DSU GMC here in Portland. I can't vouch for them personally but hear good things.