HANS v Airbag
10-03-2010, 01:13 PM
#17
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Let me put this another way. When you are strapped in with a harness, your body will not move. Since your torso will be strapped to the seat, in an impact your head will move a lot. ...and it has a few pounds sitting on it....and what's holding that?
Your neck.
Now your extra-heavyweight head will be heading in the direction of impact (whatever direction that may be and it could be a side-impact as you spin the passenger side into a wall) and your neck will need to absorb all the energy to decelerate your head. This is how some people have died. They got a basal skull fracture when their neck couldn't handle the forces at impact.
A HANS or equivalent (I use a DefNder), will help to keep your neck from hyper extending and will reduce injury or maybe even save your life.
I was recently at a track day in the pissing rain and two cars went off. One real bad into the wall with the back corner of the car (driver thrown back and to the right) and the other spun 180 deg and put the passenger side in the wall.
One track day - two incidents where the steering wheel airbag did squat.
Something to think about.
Your neck.
Now your extra-heavyweight head will be heading in the direction of impact (whatever direction that may be and it could be a side-impact as you spin the passenger side into a wall) and your neck will need to absorb all the energy to decelerate your head. This is how some people have died. They got a basal skull fracture when their neck couldn't handle the forces at impact.
A HANS or equivalent (I use a DefNder), will help to keep your neck from hyper extending and will reduce injury or maybe even save your life.
I was recently at a track day in the pissing rain and two cars went off. One real bad into the wall with the back corner of the car (driver thrown back and to the right) and the other spun 180 deg and put the passenger side in the wall.
One track day - two incidents where the steering wheel airbag did squat.
Something to think about.
10-03-2010, 01:32 PM
#18
Savyboy: Did you fool the system by using one of the dummy clips in the seatbelt lock to avoid the annoying alarm on track?
My understanding of the airbag system is that it is Supplimental to the 3 pnt belt and does not go active unless the belt is engaged????
I intentionally do not use the 3 pnt belt on track and live with the annoying alarm for that reason...Am I being missinformed???
My understanding of the airbag system is that it is Supplimental to the 3 pnt belt and does not go active unless the belt is engaged????
I intentionally do not use the 3 pnt belt on track and live with the annoying alarm for that reason...Am I being missinformed???
Before this topic gets too far off base from my original question, let's clarify things here...
This is a street car I'm talking about. I will NOT be changing the steering wheel in order to remove the airbag. This is a car that is occasionally tracked at DE events, but is just a street car 95% of the time. The helmet I wear is a full face helmet. I have been using a Scroth Rally harness (I guess you'd call it a 4 point harness), but plan to upgrade to a full 6 point harness along with a harness bar or a roll bar.
So, assuming I've got a 6 point harness and a full face helmet, is the HANS device overkill?
This is a street car I'm talking about. I will NOT be changing the steering wheel in order to remove the airbag. This is a car that is occasionally tracked at DE events, but is just a street car 95% of the time. The helmet I wear is a full face helmet. I have been using a Scroth Rally harness (I guess you'd call it a 4 point harness), but plan to upgrade to a full 6 point harness along with a harness bar or a roll bar.
So, assuming I've got a 6 point harness and a full face helmet, is the HANS device overkill?
1. A 4 point belt is no better than OE belts. And it allows for submarining on a severe frontal impact.
2. If wearing a 5/6-point harness then it is more risky/dangerous to NOT wear a HANS vs OE belts w/o HANS. For the exact reason AllanJ below notes. So either OE belts and no HANS or 5/6 point and HANS. Other combination is dangerous!
If a 95% street car, then get a harness bar or a rear roll bar and use a properly fitted 5/6 point harness and HANS for greatest safety. Full face helmet will protect you from airbag in a worst case scenerio. The main harm airbags cause to unhelmented faces is corneal abrasion as the bag opens MUCH quicker than you can close your eyelids.
Schroth has a really great PDF on their site regarding harness install. It is a science and not to be guessed at. I have seen some dreadful (deadly!) harness installs at DE's.
Let me put this another way. When you are strapped in with a harness, your body will not move. Since your torso will be strapped to the seat, in an impact your head will move a lot. ...and it has a few pounds sitting on it....and what's holding that?
Your neck.
Now your extra-heavyweight head will be heading in the direction of impact (whatever direction that may be and it could be a side-impact as you spin the passenger side into a wall) and your neck will need to absorb all the energy to decelerate your head. This is how some people have died. They got a basal skull fracture when their neck couldn't handle the forces at impact.
A HANS or equivalent (I use a DefNder), will help to keep your neck from hyper extending and will reduce injury or maybe even save your life.
Something to think about.
Your neck.
Now your extra-heavyweight head will be heading in the direction of impact (whatever direction that may be and it could be a side-impact as you spin the passenger side into a wall) and your neck will need to absorb all the energy to decelerate your head. This is how some people have died. They got a basal skull fracture when their neck couldn't handle the forces at impact.
A HANS or equivalent (I use a DefNder), will help to keep your neck from hyper extending and will reduce injury or maybe even save your life.
Something to think about.
In some cases a HANS will help in oblique and side impacts as well.
10-03-2010, 01:35 PM
#19
You need the Hans to anchor your head to your new cage. Don't want to be doing this.
Phil
10-03-2010, 01:42 PM
#20
Nordschleife Master
On 11 July 1984, the U.S. government amended Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 208 (FMVSS 208) to require cars produced after 1 April 1989 to be equipped with a passive restraint for the driver. An airbag or an automatic seat belt would meet the requirements of the standard. Airbag introduction was stimulated by the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.[32] However, airbags were not mandatory on light trucks until 1995.[citation needed]
In 1998, FMVSS 208 was amended to require dual front airbags, and de-powered, or second-generation airbags were also mandated. This was due to the injuries caused by first-generation airbags, though FMVSS 208 continues to require that bags be engineered and calibrated to be able to "save" the life of an unbelted 50th-percentile size and weight "male" crash test dummy.
In 1998, FMVSS 208 was amended to require dual front airbags, and de-powered, or second-generation airbags were also mandated. This was due to the injuries caused by first-generation airbags, though FMVSS 208 continues to require that bags be engineered and calibrated to be able to "save" the life of an unbelted 50th-percentile size and weight "male" crash test dummy.
If you have ever put your briefcase on your passenger seat, and seen the Airbag Off light come on because the weight sensor thinks you might have a rear-facing child seat, you get the hint that the airbag system does not require a seat belt to be fastened to go off.
10-03-2010, 04:58 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Off topic: I guess I will need to get the stupid clip from track junk till I can find an understanding dealer.
On topic: Hans are always better than no Hans when you suddenly decelerate...Death is not the big concern for the driver (a dead man feels no remorse)....it is the C-spine injury that we must all fear.
On topic: Hans are always better than no Hans when you suddenly decelerate...Death is not the big concern for the driver (a dead man feels no remorse)....it is the C-spine injury that we must all fear.
10-03-2010, 06:16 PM
#23
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For deactivating the warning light and sound you can try the following that works on the 6gt3.
With the key removed from the ignition
disconnect the cable that goes from the drivers side seat buckle in a socket located under the seat.
Make sure to remember where it was placed so to re-install when you want to reuse the function of the seat belt reminder and again connect it with ignition key removed.
Airbags will work in any case.
John
With the key removed from the ignition
disconnect the cable that goes from the drivers side seat buckle in a socket located under the seat.
Make sure to remember where it was placed so to re-install when you want to reuse the function of the seat belt reminder and again connect it with ignition key removed.
Airbags will work in any case.
John
10-04-2010, 12:02 AM
#25
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Just curious we know that if u crash from the front airbags will deploy. What happens if you crash from rear ie spin to wall or someone smacked you hard on the rear? Mike
10-04-2010, 02:57 AM
#26
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A 997 that hit the wall on a rear corner.
A 996 GT3 that hit the wall on a front corner(!) and was T-boned on the passenger door area right after hitting the wall.
10-04-2010, 08:03 AM
#27
The Rebel
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Assuming you have 996/997 GT3/2 seats.
If you're wearing a harness (5-6 point), install a roll bar at the very least.
Flip in a non-rollbar car with harnesses (5-6 point), and your head/torso have nowhere to go when the roof caves in on you, increasing your risk of neck injury.
In terms of safety:
1) Rollcage, 6-point harness, HANS, "halo" seat, side netting and full face helmet.
2) Rollcage, 6-point harness, HANS, "halo" seat and full face helmet.
3) Rollcage, 6-point harness, HANS and full face helmet.
4) Rollbar, 6-point harness, HANS, and full face helmet.
Just mho.
If you're wearing a harness (5-6 point), install a roll bar at the very least.
Flip in a non-rollbar car with harnesses (5-6 point), and your head/torso have nowhere to go when the roof caves in on you, increasing your risk of neck injury.
In terms of safety:
1) Rollcage, 6-point harness, HANS, "halo" seat, side netting and full face helmet.
2) Rollcage, 6-point harness, HANS, "halo" seat and full face helmet.
3) Rollcage, 6-point harness, HANS and full face helmet.
4) Rollbar, 6-point harness, HANS, and full face helmet.
Just mho.
10-04-2010, 09:26 AM
#28
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Greeetings from HANS Performance Products. This discussion was picked up by our Google Alerts. There's lots of good information here which is summarised well by AlanJ, savyboy and others. I hope you don't mind if I add some more.
>>(head and neck restraints) will help to keep your neck from hyper extending
SFI certified head and neck restraints like the HANS Device, defNder or Safety Solutions products protect your neck and spine from compression injuries also. There are large compression levels generated in the return motion of a whipping head and a good HNR will reduce these loads significantly. These forces are not as intuitive as the tension forces (hyper extension) noted above but they are just as important. To receive an SFI 38.1 rating the product is tested in both environments. As noted by others these products are also tested in a 30 degree side impact and will reduce injurious loads in this scenario too. In a high-G 90 degree side impact your first line of defense should be a seat with significant side impact bolsters or "wings" - called a halo seat by some. Before mandating these NASCAR found that a driver's helmet could exit the passenger side window (!) and contact the wall (!!) during a hard impact with the right side of the car. It is amazing how far the human body can stretch in extreme situations - and these forces are extreme, if short in duration.
I would be pleased to answer more questions either in this forum, by email or by telephone. Thank you for this opportunity.
Gary Milgrom
Vice President
HANS Performance Products
gmilgrom (at) hansdevice (dot) com
888-HANS-999 Toll Free
>>(head and neck restraints) will help to keep your neck from hyper extending
SFI certified head and neck restraints like the HANS Device, defNder or Safety Solutions products protect your neck and spine from compression injuries also. There are large compression levels generated in the return motion of a whipping head and a good HNR will reduce these loads significantly. These forces are not as intuitive as the tension forces (hyper extension) noted above but they are just as important. To receive an SFI 38.1 rating the product is tested in both environments. As noted by others these products are also tested in a 30 degree side impact and will reduce injurious loads in this scenario too. In a high-G 90 degree side impact your first line of defense should be a seat with significant side impact bolsters or "wings" - called a halo seat by some. Before mandating these NASCAR found that a driver's helmet could exit the passenger side window (!) and contact the wall (!!) during a hard impact with the right side of the car. It is amazing how far the human body can stretch in extreme situations - and these forces are extreme, if short in duration.
I would be pleased to answer more questions either in this forum, by email or by telephone. Thank you for this opportunity.
Gary Milgrom
Vice President
HANS Performance Products
gmilgrom (at) hansdevice (dot) com
888-HANS-999 Toll Free
10-04-2010, 11:05 AM
#29
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The issue is Dual Use, I think...
Very valuable discussion, particularly for "dual use" cars. I am right now trying to sort this balance out before I buy my next car.
For a dedicated, or nearly so, track car: Helmet + Roll Bar + 6-point + HANS or equivalent.
For the street, anyone disabling or modifying the factory safety mechanisms intended to meet the federal regulations may be in for a rude surprise if they ever have an accident with injury and want insurance coverage. I would never want to drive on the street without the factory-engineered system. Depending on your insurance carrier, installation of an aftermarket seat may also disqualify you.
From my personal knowledge: Airbags will deploy with or without seat belt use. The newest systems attempt to detect occupant size and weight and tailor the deployment accordingly. They also detect when there is something in the seat which is not a person, and disable the bags. The sensors are complex enough to detect the difference between frontal, side, and rear impact, and deploy bags as appropriate.
So for dual-use cars, what would be perfect would be some kind of airbag-defeat switch which could be enabled when at the track (use harnesses and HANS), then disabled on the street. At the track at least the steering wheel and pretensioners would be disabled. Though having said that I doubt anyone would be willing to take on the potential litigation risk of messing with it.
No obvious solution. I wonder what the opinion is of PCNA or other track-event organizers is?
Mike
For a dedicated, or nearly so, track car: Helmet + Roll Bar + 6-point + HANS or equivalent.
For the street, anyone disabling or modifying the factory safety mechanisms intended to meet the federal regulations may be in for a rude surprise if they ever have an accident with injury and want insurance coverage. I would never want to drive on the street without the factory-engineered system. Depending on your insurance carrier, installation of an aftermarket seat may also disqualify you.
From my personal knowledge: Airbags will deploy with or without seat belt use. The newest systems attempt to detect occupant size and weight and tailor the deployment accordingly. They also detect when there is something in the seat which is not a person, and disable the bags. The sensors are complex enough to detect the difference between frontal, side, and rear impact, and deploy bags as appropriate.
So for dual-use cars, what would be perfect would be some kind of airbag-defeat switch which could be enabled when at the track (use harnesses and HANS), then disabled on the street. At the track at least the steering wheel and pretensioners would be disabled. Though having said that I doubt anyone would be willing to take on the potential litigation risk of messing with it.
No obvious solution. I wonder what the opinion is of PCNA or other track-event organizers is?
Mike
10-04-2010, 11:21 AM
#30
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Before I get flamed...
My insurance carrier would not deny coverage if an OEM seat was removed and replaced with a shell (even if the seat removed had a thorax bag integrated) for injuries sustained in a crash on the street. Or even a non-airbag wheel in use.