Possibly the reason why the GT3 didn't get PDK???...
11-20-2009, 07:20 AM
#1
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Possibly the reason why the GT3 didn't get PDK???...
Well we've heard all sorts of reasons for the GT3 not getting PDK (for those who want it)....
We've heard about weight disadvantage issues, it not being in the character of the car, not designed to couple to Metzger motor, it not being allowed in the current FIA rules for this class of car and now according to the Porsche Australia managing director, Michael Winkler:
Winkler said their PDK twin-clutch transmission would not be suitable for racing. "A race-adequate PDK would be too uncomfortable for driving on the road," he said.
Throws a cat amogst the pigeons for all those claiming the current PDK is up to the task of hardcore track work assuming there is truth to his claims. Food for thought...
Printed in the local papers this week... Who knows what the truth really is...
FYI: the article...
http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/new...t3_2010_review
We've heard about weight disadvantage issues, it not being in the character of the car, not designed to couple to Metzger motor, it not being allowed in the current FIA rules for this class of car and now according to the Porsche Australia managing director, Michael Winkler:
Winkler said their PDK twin-clutch transmission would not be suitable for racing. "A race-adequate PDK would be too uncomfortable for driving on the road," he said.
Throws a cat amogst the pigeons for all those claiming the current PDK is up to the task of hardcore track work assuming there is truth to his claims. Food for thought...
Printed in the local papers this week... Who knows what the truth really is...
FYI: the article...
http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/new...t3_2010_review
Last edited by 911rox; 11-20-2009 at 08:58 AM.
11-20-2009, 11:17 AM
#2
That is a great article, thanks for posting!
However I would suggest that it was not said the PDK was not up to task, simply the quote you mentioned about "comfort". To me that comment implied a racing oriented PDK would have very harsh shifts. I know of several posters on the forum that track their PDK cars and I have yet to read of any issues?
I do remember reading some time ago that the PDK was not spec'ed as it added 60-70lbs (I forget exact #) to "the wrong end of the car". And that makes sense to me as a reason.
33% luxury car tax? DAMN- you poor folks are really getting the pole right up the chute. Ouch.
However I would suggest that it was not said the PDK was not up to task, simply the quote you mentioned about "comfort". To me that comment implied a racing oriented PDK would have very harsh shifts. I know of several posters on the forum that track their PDK cars and I have yet to read of any issues?
I do remember reading some time ago that the PDK was not spec'ed as it added 60-70lbs (I forget exact #) to "the wrong end of the car". And that makes sense to me as a reason.
33% luxury car tax? DAMN- you poor folks are really getting the pole right up the chute. Ouch.
11-20-2009, 12:55 PM
#3
I have heard about a pdk'd stripped track prepped 997s on slicks doing incredible times around Calabogie - just run in automatic mode - i personally would miss the heal-toe but the numbers speak for themselves
11-20-2009, 01:37 PM
#4
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Two things. One, it is known that the PDK tranny does not fit the GT1 derived engine of the Gt3 and RS. I doubt that torque or racing shifts have anything to do with it. PDK shifts a fast as the sequential box on the race cars and adds easy downshifts as well.
The new Turbo has PDK with 500 HP (more than the Cup car) and way more torque than even the new 4 liter Cup R engine.
I have been told by insiders that some form of the 9A1 DFI engine will end up in the race cars. Consider the fuel economy advantage of DFI at LeMans for a moment. One pit stop less is huge!
Paul - yes, Jim Hoddinott bought a 997.2 C2S PDK and converted it to a Cup car - full race, stripped out, cup suspension, brakes etc. even has the lexan windows of the Cup. The car is amazing and all the hard core trackies who have driven it love the PDK. I figure the next gen RS will be a 4 liter DFI with PDK. We'll see
Best,
The new Turbo has PDK with 500 HP (more than the Cup car) and way more torque than even the new 4 liter Cup R engine.
I have been told by insiders that some form of the 9A1 DFI engine will end up in the race cars. Consider the fuel economy advantage of DFI at LeMans for a moment. One pit stop less is huge!
Paul - yes, Jim Hoddinott bought a 997.2 C2S PDK and converted it to a Cup car - full race, stripped out, cup suspension, brakes etc. even has the lexan windows of the Cup. The car is amazing and all the hard core trackies who have driven it love the PDK. I figure the next gen RS will be a 4 liter DFI with PDK. We'll see
Best,
11-20-2009, 09:18 PM
#6
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That is a great article, thanks for posting!
However I would suggest that it was not said the PDK was not up to task, simply the quote you mentioned about "comfort". To me that comment implied a racing oriented PDK would have very harsh shifts. I know of several posters on the forum that track their PDK cars and I have yet to read of any issues?
I do remember reading some time ago that the PDK was not spec'ed as it added 60-70lbs (I forget exact #) to "the wrong end of the car". And that makes sense to me as a reason.
33% luxury car tax? DAMN- you poor folks are really getting the pole right up the chute. Ouch.
However I would suggest that it was not said the PDK was not up to task, simply the quote you mentioned about "comfort". To me that comment implied a racing oriented PDK would have very harsh shifts. I know of several posters on the forum that track their PDK cars and I have yet to read of any issues?
I do remember reading some time ago that the PDK was not spec'ed as it added 60-70lbs (I forget exact #) to "the wrong end of the car". And that makes sense to me as a reason.
33% luxury car tax? DAMN- you poor folks are really getting the pole right up the chute. Ouch.
Torque doesn't seem to be the issue... As obviously it can handle the turbo. Also a track prepped C2 probably wouldn't be an issue as it most likely redlines in the mid 7000s... I have never really accepted the suggestion that it can't be coupled to the Metzger- if you can build a PDK box surely the bell housing can be re cast to fit different engines...
Regarding tax, we actually get 3 poles up the chute... LCT @ 33%, GST @ 10% and Registration stamp duty of 5%... Tax component of my purchase was over$90k
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11-20-2009, 11:38 PM
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Yes, the comment is somewhat vague but reading between the lines, I would assume that the hard shifts would probably be required to minimise slip considering GT3s redline above the max rev range of the current PDK box (8000rpm). The box would probably have to have components strengthened to handle the rev range of the Metzger motor and these mods may result in compromised drivability on the street.
Torque doesn't seem to be the issue... As obviously it can handle the turbo. Also a track prepped C2 probably wouldn't be an issue as it most likely redlines in the mid 7000s... I have never really accepted the suggestion that it can't be coupled to the Metzger- if you can build a PDK box surely the bell housing can be re cast to fit different engines...
Regarding tax, we actually get 3 poles up the chute... LCT @ 33%, GST @ 10% and Registration stamp duty of 5%... Tax component of my purchase was over$90k
Torque doesn't seem to be the issue... As obviously it can handle the turbo. Also a track prepped C2 probably wouldn't be an issue as it most likely redlines in the mid 7000s... I have never really accepted the suggestion that it can't be coupled to the Metzger- if you can build a PDK box surely the bell housing can be re cast to fit different engines...
Regarding tax, we actually get 3 poles up the chute... LCT @ 33%, GST @ 10% and Registration stamp duty of 5%... Tax component of my purchase was over$90k
Torque is more of a limiting factor, and the reason it has not appeared in the Cayenne yet, but is in the Panamera.
PDK is an evolving technology, and you will see it across the model range soon.
Stay tuned, it will be exclusive in the the new 997 Turbo S and future GT3 cars.. it is the future!
11-21-2009, 01:11 AM
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Exactly right. This is why the Turbo didn't have the PDK until they switched to the A91 based engines for those cars.
11-21-2009, 01:27 AM
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THe PDK CAME from the track it will be back on the track.
But what Bob R said is what we have heard from the beginning, that it will be debuted (thats Debutt-ed in Texas) with the new 9A1 when ever IT is debutted in the GT3. AND like Bob said some version will end up on the track in the GT3. THEN you will soon see it in the Street version. Its not like Porsche changes its time honored procedure
But what Bob R said is what we have heard from the beginning, that it will be debuted (thats Debutt-ed in Texas) with the new 9A1 when ever IT is debutted in the GT3. AND like Bob said some version will end up on the track in the GT3. THEN you will soon see it in the Street version. Its not like Porsche changes its time honored procedure
11-21-2009, 01:40 AM
#11
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Don't doubt this in the least PMH. My suggestion was referring more to why it may not be in the current series of GT3... A PDK is bound to be available in all 911 variants including GT3 and RS sooner or later.
11-21-2009, 01:40 AM
#12
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THe PDK CAME from the track it will be back on the track.
But what Bob R said is what we have heard from the beginning, that it will be debuted (thats Debutt-ed in Texas) with the new 9A1 when ever IT is debutted in the GT3. AND like Bob said some version will end up on the track in the GT3. THEN you will soon see it in the Street version. Its not like Porsche changes its time honored procedure
But what Bob R said is what we have heard from the beginning, that it will be debuted (thats Debutt-ed in Texas) with the new 9A1 when ever IT is debutted in the GT3. AND like Bob said some version will end up on the track in the GT3. THEN you will soon see it in the Street version. Its not like Porsche changes its time honored procedure
11-21-2009, 01:45 AM
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11-21-2009, 10:23 AM
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There are persistent rumors that PDK will show up on the GT3 and RS as early as ext year! This suggests that PAG will adapt it to the GT1 engine as I doubt that they will release a DFI version so soon, on the other hand the RS is the traditional homologation platform for the race cars and I can see them wanting to get DFI into their LeMans car if only for additional fuel economy.
One more reason why PDK will be standard throughout the model range is various taxes - gas guzzler, carbon tax etc. The 7 speed PDK does far better on those government tests than any manual. I was very upset when I bought my wife a GTS with 6 spd manual. I got hit with a $3,000 dollar "green" tax. The Cayenne Turbo carries a $2,000 tax in spite of the higher horsepower. A Cayenne S is "only" $1,000. It appears that an auto trans which shifts to the highest gear whenever possible fares better on the EPA test cycle.
One more reason why PDK will be standard throughout the model range is various taxes - gas guzzler, carbon tax etc. The 7 speed PDK does far better on those government tests than any manual. I was very upset when I bought my wife a GTS with 6 spd manual. I got hit with a $3,000 dollar "green" tax. The Cayenne Turbo carries a $2,000 tax in spite of the higher horsepower. A Cayenne S is "only" $1,000. It appears that an auto trans which shifts to the highest gear whenever possible fares better on the EPA test cycle.
11-21-2009, 01:39 PM
#15
The total reason is the bell housing section of the PDK does not fit the GT1 engine block. They would have made a completely new casting and there are some potential fitting issues. Cost wise it did not make sense. The next GT3 will have a version of the A91 engine and a PDK. VW just flowed down their plans for Porsche and said the next GT cars will all get PDK and some lightening to compensate for the added weight.
Probably the best thing about the new Turbo getting the PDK is that for $490 you can get traditional paddle shifters. Hopefully, these will be standard by the time they make it into a GT3.
Probably the best thing about the new Turbo getting the PDK is that for $490 you can get traditional paddle shifters. Hopefully, these will be standard by the time they make it into a GT3.