997 Gt2 v. Scud & Godzilla
02-27-2009, 04:42 PM
#1
02-28-2009, 05:07 PM
#2
Thanks for sharing
I love BMI videos !
I love BMI videos !
02-28-2009, 05:48 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
...and the cream rises to the top.
02-28-2009, 08:26 PM
#4
there's a GT2 I don't want to get second hand. How many times did that guy misshift? Every up-shift seemed to be a problem of keep the foot in it with mistimed coordination.
I wonder if one of the GT2 hot rodders could comment on what shift points actually bring the best acceleration in their tests -- I'm guessing the turbos would rather work on torque and each up-shift should land around peak-torque in the next higher gear.
I wonder if one of the GT2 hot rodders could comment on what shift points actually bring the best acceleration in their tests -- I'm guessing the turbos would rather work on torque and each up-shift should land around peak-torque in the next higher gear.
02-28-2009, 09:58 PM
#6
Throwing a rod seems slower than shifting from peak power to peak torque. : ) I'm too sick with the flu to bother looking at the dyno charts I'm sure I'd find in posts on gigawatt upgrades to "the two."
03-01-2009, 10:12 AM
#7
Rennlist Member
Shift to redline is almost always the only answer in a modern car, GT2 included.
The variable timing, camshaft and admission systems allow modern engines to sustain relatively high levels of torque all the way up to redline.
Yes, peak torque might happen in the midrange, but the difference (%) between that peak torque and torque at redline is less than the demultiplying effect on torque of going into the next gear.
As it has been discussed at length in other threads, there's only one technically correct answer: Horsepower (torque x rpms) rules over torque. Clear proof is why the Scud is just as fast as the GT2 despite the huge torque deficit....
The variable timing, camshaft and admission systems allow modern engines to sustain relatively high levels of torque all the way up to redline.
Yes, peak torque might happen in the midrange, but the difference (%) between that peak torque and torque at redline is less than the demultiplying effect on torque of going into the next gear.
As it has been discussed at length in other threads, there's only one technically correct answer: Horsepower (torque x rpms) rules over torque. Clear proof is why the Scud is just as fast as the GT2 despite the huge torque deficit....
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03-01-2009, 11:18 AM
#8
Burning Brakes
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The same thing happen to me at red line. When you shift at redline, you push the clutch in and take your foot of the throttle the car still revs up another 500 RPM. I just thought it is because of the light flywheel or maybe an electronic assist to keep the turbos spooled up. I am not quite sure why it does this but it is a little unnerving.
03-01-2009, 12:11 PM
#9
Shift to redline is almost always the only answer in a modern car, GT2 included.
The variable timing, camshaft and admission systems allow modern engines to sustain relatively high levels of torque all the way up to redline.
Yes, peak torque might happen in the midrange, but the difference (%) between that peak torque and torque at redline is less than the demultiplying effect on torque of going into the next gear.
As it has been discussed at length in other threads, there's only one technically correct answer: Horsepower (torque x rpms) rules over torque. Clear proof is why the Scud is just as fast as the GT2 despite the huge torque deficit....
The variable timing, camshaft and admission systems allow modern engines to sustain relatively high levels of torque all the way up to redline.
Yes, peak torque might happen in the midrange, but the difference (%) between that peak torque and torque at redline is less than the demultiplying effect on torque of going into the next gear.
As it has been discussed at length in other threads, there's only one technically correct answer: Horsepower (torque x rpms) rules over torque. Clear proof is why the Scud is just as fast as the GT2 despite the huge torque deficit....
Anyway, I was thinking about the GT2 specifically, not general concepts. Porsche put out gear charts for the GT3 (I wonder if they did the same for other cars, I think I saw a similar "tech" booklet for the 996 Turbo at one point) where you could see the overlap of each gear and decide to up-shift from say 2nd to 3rd at a different shift point than 3rd to 4th and so on.
My primitive old 993 Turbo would much rather shift up and get back into the meat of the torque curve than wring out the last rpm off the top -- in terms of the stability of the car as well as the measured performance using data acquisition. Of course, in 1st and 2nd, it's more an automatic timing like muscle memory because there's absolutely no time to be trying to study the tach and anticipate the shift. I could understand how the driver in the video would have trouble in 1st and 2nd, but he continued to demand a lot of strain of the engine through every shift.
As for the Scuderia besting the GT2 or vice versa, I think those two runs were unconvincing. If you run a couple of rolling acceleration tests and the results are so completely inconsistent, you don't call it a draw, you run again until there's a consistent outcome.
The Scuderia has the fastest F1 box that's worth a lot in outright time over distance (and perfect up-shifts) and in my humble from those obscure videos, it seemed to have the edge over the GT2.
03-01-2009, 01:29 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
s/admission/emission/ ?
Anyway, I was thinking about the GT2 specifically, not general concepts. Porsche put out gear charts for the GT3 (I wonder if they did the same for other cars, I think I saw a similar "tech" booklet for the 996 Turbo at one point) where you could see the overlap of each gear and decide to up-shift from say 2nd to 3rd at a different shift point than 3rd to 4th and so on.
My primitive old 993 Turbo would much rather shift up and get back into the meat of the torque curve than wring out the last rpm off the top -- in terms of the stability of the car as well as the measured performance using data acquisition. Of course, in 1st and 2nd, it's more an automatic timing like muscle memory because there's absolutely no time to be trying to study the tach and anticipate the shift. I could understand how the driver in the video would have trouble in 1st and 2nd, but he continued to demand a lot of strain of the engine through every shift.
As for the Scuderia besting the GT2 or vice versa, I think those two runs were unconvincing. If you run a couple of rolling acceleration tests and the results are so completely inconsistent, you don't call it a draw, you run again until there's a consistent outcome.
The Scuderia has the fastest F1 box that's worth a lot in outright time over distance (and perfect up-shifts) and in my humble from those obscure videos, it seemed to have the edge over the GT2.
Anyway, I was thinking about the GT2 specifically, not general concepts. Porsche put out gear charts for the GT3 (I wonder if they did the same for other cars, I think I saw a similar "tech" booklet for the 996 Turbo at one point) where you could see the overlap of each gear and decide to up-shift from say 2nd to 3rd at a different shift point than 3rd to 4th and so on.
My primitive old 993 Turbo would much rather shift up and get back into the meat of the torque curve than wring out the last rpm off the top -- in terms of the stability of the car as well as the measured performance using data acquisition. Of course, in 1st and 2nd, it's more an automatic timing like muscle memory because there's absolutely no time to be trying to study the tach and anticipate the shift. I could understand how the driver in the video would have trouble in 1st and 2nd, but he continued to demand a lot of strain of the engine through every shift.
As for the Scuderia besting the GT2 or vice versa, I think those two runs were unconvincing. If you run a couple of rolling acceleration tests and the results are so completely inconsistent, you don't call it a draw, you run again until there's a consistent outcome.
The Scuderia has the fastest F1 box that's worth a lot in outright time over distance (and perfect up-shifts) and in my humble from those obscure videos, it seemed to have the edge over the GT2.
It's not only conceptual. Its practical. Take the HP and TQ chart and look at peak HP and redline torque. Then look at the % difference between that TQ and peak TQ. Most likely that % difference is less than the % between the first 4 ratios on the GT2 transmission (might be a close call for 4-5-6). This means you should rev up to redline.
The problem is that is very easy to bump into the limiter, therefore making that redline run slower. But that's a driver's problem...
03-01-2009, 06:38 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
Those guys in the BMI video are not some kids off the street, though.. some have pretty extensive racing resume. The guy that's always smiling (drift king.. Tsuchiya!) raced in LeMans many times, taking class win in his NSX if I remember correctly..
Last edited by cfjan; 03-01-2009 at 09:26 PM.
03-03-2009, 01:26 AM
#12
Drifting
Yeah not even close to a "ham-fisted anxious wannebe boy racer"
I would never put Tsuchiya and bad driving in the same sentence. I think he's probably the best Japanese driver from recentish years. Although, Orido is really good too. Hell, all the drivers at BMI/Hot Version are ridiculous.
Tsuchiya proof-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFU9aUB0scA
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZcxS2pQiM0
I would never put Tsuchiya and bad driving in the same sentence. I think he's probably the best Japanese driver from recentish years. Although, Orido is really good too. Hell, all the drivers at BMI/Hot Version are ridiculous.
Tsuchiya proof-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFU9aUB0scA
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZcxS2pQiM0
03-03-2009, 02:13 AM
#13
Rennlist Member
I thought the GTR would grow on me if I see enough them and I have. Yeah it's growing on me- it's got bigger every time I see one. Not a car for me. Mike
