Carrera GT

I don't know how well those paper numbers actually make their way onto the track, but .5 faster 0-100 is also .4 faster 60-100 which is right in that sweet spot you're pointing out. And of course that means the car is carrying more speed sooner and longer for given length of straight as well as having more anchors for presumably later braking over a shorter distance and even trailing more brakes to the apex. On paper. : )

You know, a magazine editor worth his or her salt : ) would want to get a PDK Carrera S and a 997.1 GT3 (both mit ceramics) and get them to a fun track like Sears or Laguna for a lot of data acquisition with a skilled steerer doing the consistent "limit of the vehicle" laps. All those tenths of a second that the PDK is transmitting uninterrupted oomph to the ground while the GT3 driver is off the gas changing gears would surely make for interesting comparisons.

Sure enough the S -- even with Sport Plus or whatever -- wouldn't stand a chance against the GT3, but repeat the test with a skilled amateur and see how much they can extract from the PDK car, especially in terms of threshold braking focus, staying between peak power and peak torque, consistency as well as the obvious advantage of consistently full acceleration and little things like snatching 1st gear at times when the car would otherwise bog in 2nd below the torque curve ... I mean, well, when was the last time you downshifted to 1st on the track at full clip into a hairpin knowing you'd only have it for a shaved second before needing to get back into 2nd without sending a piston out for a look at the scenery? : ) I think 11 at Laguna is the prime example, but any turn or any traffic situation where 2nd brings rpm below the meat of the torque curve would be a candidate for 1st.

Which reminds me of the earlier idea about regearing PDK to say 160 mph and putting all those extra cogs to work -- the car would start to sound like it had a CVT. : )

nb. I'm not trying to incite yet another back and forth discussion on the third pedal -- I'm just curious to see how much trouble a GT3 driver would have shaking an earnest Carrera S driver with the advantage of PDK. After all, to a GT3, the Carrera S is a flubbery, wobbly moving chicane (sorry) but add PDK and I have to wonder how much harder you might have to pedal the GT3 to make a convincing job of dispensing with that Carrera.

Alan Smithee

Well, POC has them running in the same class...and I've seen 997C2Ss keep up with "skilled amateurs" in 997GT3s on So Cal tracks. I agree that in reality the 997.2 C2S with PDK (probably even without it) will be right on top of a 997.1 GT3.

cello

True that: PDK levels years off the racing/DE playing field. I think much of the fun (read learning curve) of the sport is negated with PDK (or equivalent gearboxes). OTOH, if you can only get out x times per year and are 40+ yrs & staring death in the face ;-) a case can be made for PDK and fast forwarding the process. I vacillate, personally.

gota911

OUCH!!!! That was COLD.....


.... but funny!


And yes, I resemble that remark.

Carrera GT

GT3 is now in Prepared, so I'm told.

Carrera GT

I wasn't trying to be so morbid. : ) I was just comparing the scenarios of applying the technology. Personally, I stare death in the face every time I see a mini-van passing me at 80 mph while I try to stay alert in the GT3. I start death in the face every time I see a pimply idiotic teenager with a cell phone glued to its ear and gesturing with the other hand. Death is all around us! : )

Of course you could put me in an RSR (please!) and I doubt I could keep a pro driver on the same lap if he was in a Carrera with street tires sipping a Cappuccino and texting his girlfriend.

Wayward

Was that you?

C.J. Ichiban

I'd spend the first few minutes wiping myself off and getting lapped I'm sure

lol

LastMezger

Really? Sunroof delete, centre-locks, more power, bigger wing...seems like a pretty cool mid-model update to me.

GrantG

Don't forget GT2 seats, bigger/lighter brakes, front axle lift, and mesh intakes - I think it's a huge improvement for a facelift...

NJ-GT

A bit off topic, but more information on this matter.

The 997 GT3 and GT3 RS are not allowed to have any point upgrades in POC-Prepared, while the other Prepared cars can have up to 13 points.

The 996 GT3 stock goes to Improved. The 997S runs in stock but only for the first generation. The 997.2 hasn't been classed yet.

Any 993, 996 or 997 GT2 goes to V0 class with just 4 points available before it gets bumped into the GT class (Racing cars with full cage, and all the other stuff).

Personally, I think that a 997.2 S with PDK, PCCB, GT2 seats and the Sport suspension (with LSD), is a nice street cars and very capable track car, but not yet at GT3 levels.

Official Porsche times at the Ring for the 997 S:

2005 Carrera S with the PASM: 8:02
2005 Carrera S with Sport suspension and LSD (didn't make it to U.S.): 7:59
2009 Carrera S with manual transmission: 7:58
2004 911 GT3: 7:54
2009 Carrera S with PDK: 7:50 (Tip: they put Michelin Sport Cups on this car)

Four cars were tested on Michelin PS2 tires. Funny how Porsche puts the PDK 911S on MPSC, to claim 8 seconds faster lap times. How lame...

Yargk

Isn't a 2004 GT3 with MPSC at 7:49? I distinctly remember reading one test.

Alan Smithee

NJ-GT, thanks for clarifying the latest POC classes; I checked the website for the 2009 GCRs before posting, but they don't have them up.

I think it's great that they put MPSCs on that C2S; it levels the playing field against the GT3 with the same rubber for this type of comparison. What are we considering the benchmark for the outgoing GT3? Rohrl's 7:42? It was another driver that got the 7:50 in the C2S. Given all of the variables, they are extremely close. And when translated to the slower tracks we have here that can't take as big an advantage of the GT3's aero superiority and greater power, it really is down to the driver.

NJ-GT

Autobild in 2004. They tested the Manthey GT3 RSR Race car, their street package MM410, and a stock 996 GT3 on Pirelli Corsa System tires (R-comp tires). 7:49 on a tire similar to the MPSC, it shows how capable the new 997S can be compared to the 2004 996 GT3.

They're still working on writing the 2009 rules, even though the 2009 season has already started. No mention on this in the 2008 rules. The GT3 RS is not yet classed, although it's allowed in the same spot as the 997 GT3 (not fair I think).

Later on this year the 2010 GT3 will show up. I think the 2010 GT3 will be a faster car than the 2008 GT3 RS in every way. More downforce on the new GT3, more power, more torque, better brakes, improved suspension, lighter than the RS (if you opt for PCCB, GT2 seats and sunroof delete).

Carrera GT

I thought we all had a tacit agreement to not say this out loud?! : )

For my two cents, the outgoing RS has a single mass lightweight flywheel and lighter total rotating mass give or take the center-locks while the 997.2 GT3 has a "lighter" dual mass. Groan. We'll see.

Surely they've improved PASM (how could it get worse? ... scratch that ... I didn't jinx it!)

The RS doesn't have solid engine mounts and it arguably lacks aero refinement that the factory saw fit to craft into the update.

And the RS doesn't have the new LED lamp bits!

There's still several questions about the 997.2 GT3, not the least of which is the extent to which it acquires R&D dividends from the extra months the GT2 had before freezing and going into production. This could be just the SC/TC aka PSM we've seen as well as references to the rear suspension geometry, but I haven't seen anything on the launch control (of the manual clutch variety) and maybe more down force on the fronts from the nose changes will be welcome on tracks with *****-to-the-wall high speed sweepers.

Damn. I was all set to not like the "interim" car if it didn't come with PDK. Aargh!