997 GT3 vs F430 On-track comparison
10-02-2008, 09:56 PM
#16
Unless the amateur is so far out of the game that even the Scuderia would be too much, the Carrera GT has so much more, it's still clearly ahead of the Scuderia. I was at Thunderhill early last month with two Scuderias and a Carrera GT and the Carrera GT is still the big dog with no questions, ifs, ands or buts.
10-02-2008, 10:04 PM
#17
Having owned both I can agree with many of your observations
However I don't believe that anything short of a Money Howitzer can render the 430 nearly as track-worthy as the RS.
I found the 430 almost pedestrian to drive on the street except for the near-incessant buzz it stirred from observers. Definitely not the car for someone who wishes to simply travel from A to B.
Ferrari hides are lovely. Ferrari brakes (steel anyway) suck on the track. And while the Ferrari interior materials are great, the overall ergonomics are nowhere near as intuitive and functional as the Porsche.
In the 430, I rode "on" it. In the GT3 RS I rode "in" it. Hard to say it any other way and YMMV...
After looking at it in my garage for several months, I think the 430 borders on ugly. Not nearly as seductive as the 360. The 360 is a beautiful, if voluptuous woman. The 430 is a marine creature.
However I don't believe that anything short of a Money Howitzer can render the 430 nearly as track-worthy as the RS.
I found the 430 almost pedestrian to drive on the street except for the near-incessant buzz it stirred from observers. Definitely not the car for someone who wishes to simply travel from A to B.
Ferrari hides are lovely. Ferrari brakes (steel anyway) suck on the track. And while the Ferrari interior materials are great, the overall ergonomics are nowhere near as intuitive and functional as the Porsche.
In the 430, I rode "on" it. In the GT3 RS I rode "in" it. Hard to say it any other way and YMMV...
After looking at it in my garage for several months, I think the 430 borders on ugly. Not nearly as seductive as the 360. The 360 is a beautiful, if voluptuous woman. The 430 is a marine creature.
10-02-2008, 11:11 PM
#18
A dream would be to have a GT3 for the track and an F430 for the road.
I have come close many times to buying a Ferrari, but I always recoil at overall cost of ownership. I have always loved that 911's can be driven very hard and maintained relatively cheaply. But I will break down one day, the 360 and 430 are the most stunning cars ever made IMHO.
Robin
10-03-2008, 01:12 AM
#19
Nordschleife Master
Great stuff! I don't think you'll find too many people willing to go to "pedestrian" for the 430. "Ugly" it can be said -- certainly the Scuderia finishes the job and makes the 430 a supermodel. Making the 430 a very competent track car is a shopping list from the Challenge cars (which themselves are hardly "money howitzer" level, though I got a smile out of that image.) Things like "intuitive" and riding "on" versus "in" are indeed "YMMV" and subjective. I find that the 997 GT3 is an "on" experience until I pull the cushions out of the seat and ride in the bare shell of the seat. And if I've spent a day in the 993, the 997 feels like an ergonomic equivalent of heavy anaesthetics. And for sure, my only "push back" on the F-brand is the ostentatious look-at-me problem. No quick fix there and neither RS nor F430 should be in the quiver for "A to B" though there's more than one driver on Rennlist using a Carrera GT as a commuter (hands up anyone with a Fastrak transponder on the windshield of the GT!) : )
With regards to money cannons, a 430 coupe begins at near double a GT-3 in the real world market for substrate. And at that point the F still lacks the brakes, seats and suspension already a part of the P. Add even routine maintenance costs and the F quickly climbs and only to get to near-equal footing. Everyone has their own economic comfort zone, for me there really isn't much contest. Again YMMV...
If you want to discuss Challenge vs. Cup, all I can say is that my Cup, while not cheap is still not astronomical. I don't know what a 430 similarly prepped would run.
I'm no racer, just a fun-run kind of guy. I had no problem running down a real racer in a Scud last week in my Cup. So I think you'll need a Challenge to be competitive. In any case I don't think it possible that a Challenge can cost Scud-money. But they are very different purpose-built vehicles after all.
You must admit, P or F, they're great toys. What a Country!
10-03-2008, 02:39 AM
#20
Nice write up. I agree completely. Possibly a CS or Scud might compare more favourably. There are some members here who have had, or may still have both, it would be interesting to hear from some of them.
I have come close many times to buying a Ferrari, but I always recoil at overall cost of ownership. I have always loved that 911's can be driven very hard and maintained relatively cheaply. But I will break down one day, the 360 and 430 are the most stunning cars ever made IMHO.
Robin
I have come close many times to buying a Ferrari, but I always recoil at overall cost of ownership. I have always loved that 911's can be driven very hard and maintained relatively cheaply. But I will break down one day, the 360 and 430 are the most stunning cars ever made IMHO.
Robin
With no reasonable doubt in mind, I'd say the Ferrari presents the less total cost proposition. If bought sensibly and owned according to "the rules" then punctually replaced with "the next one" the Ferrari becomes sustainable and can be budgeted whereas Porsche has an open end.
Most Ferraris retain their value consistently until superceded then some gain value while most decline predictably.
Almost all Porsches have declined immediately, some far worse than others. The handful of appreciated Porsches are so unlike the available cars that there's no comparison. That a GT1 or a Carrera GT or a '73 RS Lightweight have eventually held their ground or increased by orders of magnitude is interesting, but irrelevant because they're the tiny statistical exception.
I've taken to describing the financial decision by saying that I drive a GT3 and it's my third one in three years. I'd like to get an RS to reduce the inevitable depreciation curve even though it's more dollars. But I can't afford a Carrera (say, with PDK even though I'd enjoy having it) because the depreciation is just too much.
ps. Be cautious with the 360 in terms of resale value because it exists in abundance. Be cautious with the 430 at present because it's obsolescent and will soon no longer be the newest model. The F430 will also bear the brunt of the transition from the existing F1 (robotic) gearbox to the dual clutch system as seen in the California.
There's no way to predict or even compensate for the current uniquely cataclysmic economic failures with the US government and its finances, but the dear old F430 will hopefully have its secondary market prices buoyed by unrequited enthusiasm for the forthcoming California model. New Ferrari buyers will flock to the "F" brand only to find they have to endure a customer vetting process with a mandatory stop-and-go penalty of several months if not years before their lust is sated. Frustrated "instant gratification" buyers will either pay too much (or "too soon" as they say) for first-kid-on-the-block superficiality or they'll look to the secondary market to begin their Ferrari lifestyle.
No matter the path, all ways lead to realizing that the F430 at around $200K will be the Ferrari bargain of the century in the context of $200K for the "entry level" California with less power, the engine in the front but lacking the requisite cylinder count for bespoke GT Ferraris.
And the dual-clutch is already engineered into the 430 and said to be arriving in a new hard-top 430-based Spider (perhaps the Scuderia first) so it's not entirely business as usual for Ferrari as the US market collapses and production goes to other world markets.
10-03-2008, 08:43 AM
#21
Nordschleife Master
"Cost" depends on which dollars you recognize and how you count.
With no reasonable doubt in mind, I'd say the Ferrari presents the less total cost proposition. If bought sensibly and owned according to "the rules" then punctually replaced with "the next one" the Ferrari becomes sustainable and can be budgeted whereas Porsche has an open end.
Most Ferraris retain their value consistently until superceded then some gain value while most decline predictably.
Almost all Porsches have declined immediately, some far worse than others. The handful of appreciated Porsches are so unlike the available cars that there's no comparison. That a GT1 or a Carrera GT or a '73 RS Lightweight have eventually held their ground or increased by orders of magnitude is interesting, but irrelevant because they're the tiny statistical exception.
I've taken to describing the financial decision by saying that I drive a GT3 and it's my third one in three years. I'd like to get an RS to reduce the inevitable depreciation curve even though it's more dollars. But I can't afford a Carrera (say, with PDK even though I'd enjoy having it) because the depreciation is just too much.
ps. Be cautious with the 360 in terms of resale value because it exists in abundance. Be cautious with the 430 at present because it's obsolescent and will soon no longer be the newest model. The F430 will also bear the brunt of the transition from the existing F1 (robotic) gearbox to the dual clutch system as seen in the California.
There's no way to predict or even compensate for the current uniquely cataclysmic economic failures with the US government and its finances, but the dear old F430 will hopefully have its secondary market prices buoyed by unrequited enthusiasm for the forthcoming California model. New Ferrari buyers will flock to the "F" brand only to find they have to endure a customer vetting process with a mandatory stop-and-go penalty of several months if not years before their lust is sated. Frustrated "instant gratification" buyers will either pay too much (or "too soon" as they say) for first-kid-on-the-block superficiality or they'll look to the secondary market to begin their Ferrari lifestyle.
No matter the path, all ways lead to realizing that the F430 at around $200K will be the Ferrari bargain of the century in the context of $200K for the "entry level" California with less power, the engine in the front but lacking the requisite cylinder count for bespoke GT Ferraris.
And the dual-clutch is already engineered into the 430 and said to be arriving in a new hard-top 430-based Spider (perhaps the Scuderia first) so it's not entirely business as usual for Ferrari as the US market collapses and production goes to other world markets.
With no reasonable doubt in mind, I'd say the Ferrari presents the less total cost proposition. If bought sensibly and owned according to "the rules" then punctually replaced with "the next one" the Ferrari becomes sustainable and can be budgeted whereas Porsche has an open end.
Most Ferraris retain their value consistently until superceded then some gain value while most decline predictably.
Almost all Porsches have declined immediately, some far worse than others. The handful of appreciated Porsches are so unlike the available cars that there's no comparison. That a GT1 or a Carrera GT or a '73 RS Lightweight have eventually held their ground or increased by orders of magnitude is interesting, but irrelevant because they're the tiny statistical exception.
I've taken to describing the financial decision by saying that I drive a GT3 and it's my third one in three years. I'd like to get an RS to reduce the inevitable depreciation curve even though it's more dollars. But I can't afford a Carrera (say, with PDK even though I'd enjoy having it) because the depreciation is just too much.
ps. Be cautious with the 360 in terms of resale value because it exists in abundance. Be cautious with the 430 at present because it's obsolescent and will soon no longer be the newest model. The F430 will also bear the brunt of the transition from the existing F1 (robotic) gearbox to the dual clutch system as seen in the California.
There's no way to predict or even compensate for the current uniquely cataclysmic economic failures with the US government and its finances, but the dear old F430 will hopefully have its secondary market prices buoyed by unrequited enthusiasm for the forthcoming California model. New Ferrari buyers will flock to the "F" brand only to find they have to endure a customer vetting process with a mandatory stop-and-go penalty of several months if not years before their lust is sated. Frustrated "instant gratification" buyers will either pay too much (or "too soon" as they say) for first-kid-on-the-block superficiality or they'll look to the secondary market to begin their Ferrari lifestyle.
No matter the path, all ways lead to realizing that the F430 at around $200K will be the Ferrari bargain of the century in the context of $200K for the "entry level" California with less power, the engine in the front but lacking the requisite cylinder count for bespoke GT Ferraris.
And the dual-clutch is already engineered into the 430 and said to be arriving in a new hard-top 430-based Spider (perhaps the Scuderia first) so it's not entirely business as usual for Ferrari as the US market collapses and production goes to other world markets.
Bought 360 spyder (requisite vetting as you put it). Took a $25K hit on the turn around for the "privilege" to buy a crazy low mi, but used 430 Spyder. Lost $10K when I decided it was not for me.
Bought GT3 RS. Traded it back to the dealer for a GT3 and cash. No loss at all, and I actually did the dealer a favor since I could have made $20-25K, but kept my word not to flip it. When it came time to dump the GT3, took a $12K hit.
Now you were saying...?
10-03-2008, 12:13 PM
#22
Fair enough. And I trust you speak from experience. Each of us has our own comfort level in a vehicle. I guess what struck me was what I'll call the "show/go" ratio. Here the stock 430 is only exceeded by a Lambo. My own rating would be at least 1.5 for the 430 vs. a .75 for the GT-3. Each of us is free to apply our own math however. Further, as an aesthetic work I think the 360 CS is the Supermodel. The 430/Scud is kind of like that tall blonde Swedish babe Stallone married; muscular and flashy, but not my taste I guess
With regards to money cannons, a 430 coupe begins at near double a GT-3 in the real world market for substrate. And at that point the F still lacks the brakes, seats and suspension already a part of the P. Add even routine maintenance costs and the F quickly climbs and only to get to near-equal footing. Everyone has their own economic comfort zone, for me there really isn't much contest. Again YMMV...
If you want to discuss Challenge vs. Cup, all I can say is that my Cup, while not cheap is still not astronomical. I don't know what a 430 similarly prepped would run.
I'm no racer, just a fun-run kind of guy. I had no problem running down a real racer in a Scud last week in my Cup. So I think you'll need a Challenge to be competitive. In any case I don't think it possible that a Challenge can cost Scud-money. But they are very different purpose-built vehicles after all.
You must admit, P or F, they're great toys. What a Country!
With regards to money cannons, a 430 coupe begins at near double a GT-3 in the real world market for substrate. And at that point the F still lacks the brakes, seats and suspension already a part of the P. Add even routine maintenance costs and the F quickly climbs and only to get to near-equal footing. Everyone has their own economic comfort zone, for me there really isn't much contest. Again YMMV...
If you want to discuss Challenge vs. Cup, all I can say is that my Cup, while not cheap is still not astronomical. I don't know what a 430 similarly prepped would run.
I'm no racer, just a fun-run kind of guy. I had no problem running down a real racer in a Scud last week in my Cup. So I think you'll need a Challenge to be competitive. In any case I don't think it possible that a Challenge can cost Scud-money. But they are very different purpose-built vehicles after all.
You must admit, P or F, they're great toys. What a Country!
Against that backdrop, let's get concrete.
Bought 360 spyder (requisite vetting as you put it). Took a $25K hit on the turn around for the "privilege" to buy a crazy low mi, but used 430 Spyder. Lost $10K when I decided it was not for me.
Bought GT3 RS. Traded it back to the dealer for a GT3 and cash. No loss at all, and I actually did the dealer a favor since I could have made $20-25K, but kept my word not to flip it. When it came time to dump the GT3, took a $12K hit.
Now you were saying...?
Bought 360 spyder (requisite vetting as you put it). Took a $25K hit on the turn around for the "privilege" to buy a crazy low mi, but used 430 Spyder. Lost $10K when I decided it was not for me.
Bought GT3 RS. Traded it back to the dealer for a GT3 and cash. No loss at all, and I actually did the dealer a favor since I could have made $20-25K, but kept my word not to flip it. When it came time to dump the GT3, took a $12K hit.
Now you were saying...?
I don't know why you chose to take a loss on a 360 Spider, but I'm sure it happened back then even when the car was the hot ticket. Ferrari enthusiasts routinely comment that Ferrari over-produced the 360 and even the Challenge Stradale has lost its price point. I expect the 430 would go the same way except the California will be produced in larger numbers and will fill in the market. I've read others suggesting that the California will hurt 430 prices and make it worse than the 360 over time. Of course, once the 430 replacement happens along, it will take the "new" mantle and offer the first significant technology (dual clutch) advancement from Ferrari since CCBs, making all current F1 owners painfully aware of their "old" cars.
I don't know why you chose to step out of the RS into a "normal" GT3 and take cash without taking all the market value that was in the RS. Maybe the $17K delta was enough and the pain of selling a secondhand car, even an RS, discourages me from pursuing the extra money too. Though if I had an RS when they were changing hands on eBay over $200K, I'd probably deal with a little pain. : ) I'm not clear on to whom you gave your word not to flip the RS? The dealer? Please.
As for taking a hit on the 997 GT3, I haven't seen one $12K under MSRP (yet) except where there's stories. Maybe you're adding in sales tax.
I see the same "I prefer the old one" mentality perpetuating itself in Ferrari owners just as we see in Porsche owners lamenting the passing of each type of 911. The "old" 964 is "better" than the 993, then we cling to the 993 as the last of the Mohicans, then we prefer the 996 GT3 to the 997 GT3 and now we go through the phase of manual gearboxes preferred over PDKs. So it goes. But that "prefer the old one" influence in the secondary market only works for so long. Long enough to prop up the 996 GT3 for a year or so. I imagine it will prop up the 997 GT3 and RS until we find out what they've done to completely screw up the 997 GT3 Mk II. Maybe there will be a revolt when we see the A91 engine replacing out beloved, leaky old donk. It will depend on the execution. The same holds true for Ferrari when they replace the venerable F430. Will it be an exotic and wildly expensive Enzo-lookalike (as in some spy photos) or will it be an incremental improvement, take some of the Scuderia goodness (especially appearance) and keep making money for another product cycle?
I have a dog in both fights, so to speak. If the current US government doesn't bankrupt us all, maybe I'll still be able to afford whatever comes next. : )
10-03-2008, 01:13 PM
#23
Seems like this analysis is ignoring the mileage factor of both cars. F-cars hold their value, provided you barely drive them. If you drive a Ferrari as much as a comparable P-car, I suspect their value would drop more appropro.
10-03-2008, 02:36 PM
#24
Fair enough. And I trust you speak from experience. Each of us has our own comfort level in a vehicle. I guess what struck me was what I'll call the "show/go" ratio. Here the stock 430 is only exceeded by a Lambo. My own rating would be at least 1.5 for the 430 vs. a .75 for the GT-3. Each of us is free to apply our own math however. Further, as an aesthetic work I think the 360 CS is the Supermodel. The 430/Scud is kind of like that tall blonde Swedish babe Stallone married; muscular and flashy, but not my taste I guess
With regards to money cannons, a 430 coupe begins at near double a GT-3 in the real world market for substrate. And at that point the F still lacks the brakes, seats and suspension already a part of the P. Add even routine maintenance costs and the F quickly climbs and only to get to near-equal footing. Everyone has their own economic comfort zone, for me there really isn't much contest. Again YMMV...
If you want to discuss Challenge vs. Cup, all I can say is that my Cup, while not cheap is still not astronomical. I don't know what a 430 similarly prepped would run.
I'm no racer, just a fun-run kind of guy. I had no problem running down a real racer in a Scud last week in my Cup. So I think you'll need a Challenge to be competitive. In any case I don't think it possible that a Challenge can cost Scud-money. But they are very different purpose-built vehicles after all.
You must admit, P or F, they're great toys. What a Country!
With regards to money cannons, a 430 coupe begins at near double a GT-3 in the real world market for substrate. And at that point the F still lacks the brakes, seats and suspension already a part of the P. Add even routine maintenance costs and the F quickly climbs and only to get to near-equal footing. Everyone has their own economic comfort zone, for me there really isn't much contest. Again YMMV...
If you want to discuss Challenge vs. Cup, all I can say is that my Cup, while not cheap is still not astronomical. I don't know what a 430 similarly prepped would run.
I'm no racer, just a fun-run kind of guy. I had no problem running down a real racer in a Scud last week in my Cup. So I think you'll need a Challenge to be competitive. In any case I don't think it possible that a Challenge can cost Scud-money. But they are very different purpose-built vehicles after all.
You must admit, P or F, they're great toys. What a Country!
As for the odometer, yes, it's the square root of depreciation or inverse log of resale value or whatever depreciation curve you prefer. But for the GT3/RS and the F430, both cars need to keep the miles down and play by the rules in terms of resale. Either car will depreciate quickly when the odometer approaches the first 10K.
10-03-2008, 04:56 PM
#26
An F430 w/ Daytona seats is a weird drive because those seats do not transmit much feel (of where the car is). I replaced the seats with 360CS carbon seats, and it's so much better. RE: the "pedestrian" comment, I "sort of" agree, in the sense that the F430 is a car you can live with daily. Yes, that's right - daily. Mine drives like the Accord I drove 5 years ago, and I mean that in a good way. Older Ferraris and some other supercars make you ALWAYS aware you are driving an exotic, even we you are tooling along behind a soccer mom in a Volvo - and that's a bad thing. The F430 is easy to drive, and then becomes a full boat supercar once you are ready to go. The steering is very light, especially compared with the GT3 (which I love, and drive probably 2x as much as the F430).
The GT3 is a truly amazing car, and actually in many ways, my preferred ride. I do believe a lot of that comes from a long running relationship with 911s, 356s, and the brand in toto. My 7GT3 has a familiarity gained from hours of seat time in my (long gone) 77S hot-rod, or any of the pre-impact bumper cars I've owned. Knowing what to expect is comforting when drive a high performance car.
The GT3 is a truly amazing car, and actually in many ways, my preferred ride. I do believe a lot of that comes from a long running relationship with 911s, 356s, and the brand in toto. My 7GT3 has a familiarity gained from hours of seat time in my (long gone) 77S hot-rod, or any of the pre-impact bumper cars I've owned. Knowing what to expect is comforting when drive a high performance car.
10-04-2008, 05:08 AM
#28
Nordschleife Master
Is this an "analysis?" I'd say we're posting comments, opinions, perspectives and so on. But an analysis would require actual work ... you know ... "facts and such." : )
As for the odometer, yes, it's the square root of depreciation or inverse log of resale value or whatever depreciation curve you prefer. But for the GT3/RS and the F430, both cars need to keep the miles down and play by the rules in terms of resale. Either car will depreciate quickly when the odometer approaches the first 10K.
As for the odometer, yes, it's the square root of depreciation or inverse log of resale value or whatever depreciation curve you prefer. But for the GT3/RS and the F430, both cars need to keep the miles down and play by the rules in terms of resale. Either car will depreciate quickly when the odometer approaches the first 10K.
Regarding the GT3's of my experience though; I had a deal with the GM. Moderate sized dealership that got one RS. I put a deposit down 14 mo prior to delivery and agreed not too flip. Perhaps honoring a commitment seems wrong/prudish to a real businessman, but whatever. Guess I'm a Republican. Insofar as GT3's at $12K losses, I'll bet there are a lot of GT3's that sold for that much loss and more. Mine was in a trade-in scenario so one may construe the value as slightly more or less, but since I also recouped the tax credit the final number may be considered less.
Loss of $25K on a 360? I can assure you my experience is not novel. I have acquaintances that ran into similar situations through "vetting" as you accurately put it. I can guaranty that I'm pretty much through with that marque. Recall show/go ratio.
Anyway, Ferraris seem to be more valued for their appearance, Porsches for their performance. There is little doubt as to which car is more trackworthy in any case.
