prg

Don't underestimate the cost of the care and feeding of a wings and things car. The cups seem pretty bulletproof. Walking around the paddock, the cup guys seem to spend most of there time relaxing. That's not usually how it works in the sports racer and formula car garages.

Granted the cup guys get to write bigger checks for their motor and gearbox rebuilds, but an arrive and drive wings'n'things guy gets to pay for about 10 -15 hours of labor between weekends maintaing a much more highly stressed machine. At the end of the year, the radical guy is either going to have 100 + hours of his (or someone elses) labor, that the cup guy may not. The price of not fastidiously maintaining a sports racer or formula car is unreliability of powertrain (annoying) or suspension (terrifying).

P.S. Radical has done a good job of marketing to the track day guys. If you want a sports racer, there are more competitive options. Mooty IMHO you need to do a test day in proper formula car or sport racer. Russell school in your back yard looks to be putting students into a modern, safe, carbon tubbed formula car on slicks. Beware, once you reset your internal accellerometers, the street cars may not do it for you anymore.

allegretto

Here's the story

If you have an Elise or Exige you go to Sector 111 and get a set of their rotors. You will be fixed!

If you own a Cup...the rotors are a proprietary product at, are you ready, 303 mm. NO ONE but AP makes them, hence their huge price tag. Lotuses sneering response aside, I heard a rumor that I didn't bother to confirm, that they were at last offering some type of "Upgrade" to Cup owners for about $6K to fix the problem. Too late for me however.

The attitude and desultory response of that company have made me a non-Lotus driver for good. I was at the dealership with Cup car #003 and the GM was on the phone to the US Guy. I begged to please give me the phone and let me ask the man in a non-confrontational way how he though I should drive the car. After all, I sure don't know all there is about going fast. The GM asked him twice to talk to me and he refused to even speak to me.

I'm done with Lotus!

allegretto

I think you're right on all points.

So, knowing what you know, if you had to go open-wheel right now, what would you do? Keeping in mind that the expenses should be kept reasonable (no retired F1 or Indy cars please). Just good reliable machines.

NJ-GT

With the exception of the Evo MR, the Lotus was compared against monster cars with 414 Hp or more.

I should have expected the Exige to do better at the AutoX and Streets of Willow, while getting creamed at Big Willow and CalSpeedway full oval.

But, if you throw the Cayman S, 997 Carrera, C63, RS4, Sti, the Lotus will show a better performance. It was just out-classed.

The Exige 255 Cup runs slicks. I can put slicks in any car and drop lap times by several seconds (depending on OEM tires and racetrack length).

C.J. Ichiban

formula mazda and then you get into a formula Pro mazda for more go...stohr cars seem to be pretty popular also

Jack

Herman,

With all due respect, your info is a bit off/dated.

First, I had/have the Lotus Big brake Kit on both my Cup 240 and 255 -- rotors have lasted quite well w/o any warping/cracking etc. -- more than 5500 track miles and still good. What many have experienced is excessive pad transfer from the Pagid RS 14's -- all due to inadequate/incomplete bedding of the pads. The result is a violent vibration/shudder (very much like warped rotors) -- the Blacks are very hard to bed in on the Lotus whether it has the stock front rotors or the larger 2-piece kit.

Second, in addition to Sector's big brake kit, there are now 308 mm replacement rotors from Sector for the Lotus BBK and they are better and way less expensive. Complete 2-piece setup (rotor/alum hat) with floating bushings for ~$500...replacement rings for ~$250.

Sorry to hear about you bad experience with Lotus -- mine has been the opposite. They have taken very good care of me. Btw, your car is doing great in Jim's hands -- he's driving the s**T out of it with no issues.

As for the R&T test, there was something wrong with that Exige 240 (or it's driver related, probably a remote possibility)....us amateurs have turned much better times with lower HP cars on that same track...something doesn't compute.

lig

Great discussion, guys. I've been thinking about selling the S2000 and replacing it with an Elise for a more "pure" auto-x/lapping day ride but am having a hard time justifying the extra 20K it'll cost me.

allegretto

Knew I'd hear from you. I'm glad Jim is doing well. And I'm glad for the work-around.

And with all respect due You I must tell you your theory about improper bedding is not correct. We went through all that, by the "book" with the multiple stops at the different speeds. I even had someone else who's knowledge is beyond mine do it one time. Same outcome. We measured and turned the rotors, they were warped, period. Even the dealer's sorry-butt "master mechanic" got the same results, warped.

So while I truly am happy that you are. I will not just say, "oh well, guess sevreral of us, some seasoned racers, and three cars all just got it wrong". My incident was not isolated. And the fact that the upgrade came along adds creadence.

But even if we all cant find our cheeks here, their sense of customer service, again not just with me, is not excusible.

JMO based upon personal experience with many manufacturers.

NJ-GT

Here is the link to the Exige autocross video at El Toro with Gary Thomason at the wheels. The car was equipped with A048 Yokos (not a good auto-x tire).

There are other videos of the GT2, Z06, GTR, ACR and R8.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/...ctid1681854892

allegretto

I think I'd prefer a Radical to a Stohr. But the Stohr looks waaaay cool!

prg

The radicals aren't competitive in CSR or DSR. The stohrs's have rendered them obsolete for SCCA purposes. If you have a well attended "spec" radical series around to run with it may be a good option. If you know that you have no interest in racing, a radical may be a reasonably good option (esp if you have a dealer locally that can provide spares and support because you'll need plenty of both).

The best open wheel option depends on what classes are best attended and supported in your area. For me it was standard formula mazda. We had a good dealer locally (Texas) for support. The car is simple, robust, easy to set up, and reliable by formula car standards. Sadly, they are pretty ugly.

I've upgraded to a Pro Formula mazda. It is uncompetitive in SCCA formula atlantic, but it is the overdog in my local track series and there are good regional and national spec series for the car. Carbon fiber tub for safety. The car is fairly robust and reliable, but the setup is challenging. I think it would make a lousy first car. The car goes from hooked up to diabolical with a few millimeters of ride height change. (Which happens every time you change tires). When the car is hooked up, it is incredibly fun (0-60 in 2.8 seconds, 2.5 lateral G's, 3.5 G's under braking.) Performance is similar to a Stohr WF1 but the car is significantly less highly strung than the Stohr.

If I was seriously thinking about starting out in a wings'n'things car, I'd go to a SCCA or NASA race and see what people are driving. You'll have the most fun in a car with plenty of people to race and someone who knows what their doing to help you with the car. Standard FM's, formula continentals, and formula enterprises cars all turn very similar lap times. I'd pick based on whats best attended and supported in your area. F1000 is very cool but may or may not survive so I'd probably steer clear for now, you might wind up with a car you can't race and can't sell. Also they are fast enough, the lack of a carbon tub makes me worried about their safety. I'd avoid a real formula atlantic like the plague. It will make your street car hobby seem dirt cheap. Very few machines can convert money to smoke like a formula atlantic. (I repeat this to myself to keep from buying one. IMHO there is nothing cooler in club racing than a Swift 014)

Sorry about the hijack.

allegretto

No apology needed.Thanks for the info!I s it just the way the class is configured?

I like the two seat approach of the Radical. I am able to admit I'll never collect checks for my driving skills, too much self-preservation involved. There's one guy at the track with the Stohr,and he'll let me take it out (we race TonyKarts together, he knows I won't do anything too foolish).It already is faster than a Radical of course, but I understand the suspension breaks rather easily and I didn't know they were in the same class.

What is your experience?

prg

I don't have any experience driving sports racers. I used to be a little faster than the CSR 1500cc radicals in my old standard FM. A Stohr WF1 will leave a standard FM for dead. The Radical is a flat bottomed relatively heavy car. The current Stohr WF1 is a much lighter car with a ground effects tunnell floor. The radical was created for a spec series in England to race against other radicals. The Stohr was created to win in DSR maximizing what is allowed per the SCCA rulebook. Although the radicals are legal in DSR and CSR depending on engine displacement, they can't compete with the Stohrs. This affects their resale value on the used market significantly.
Sunday driver has owned both a radical and a first generation stohr DSR. You might want to send him a pm if you want more info on these two cars. My real love is open wheelers.

mooty

i am quite familiar with radicals. you are absolute right, they takes a lot of feeding and caring. most have crew with them on track. things rattle lose. but despite cup car's bullet proofness, each time it visits a shop is easily a $5k ticket (sh*t tires are 1500 a set and you need a set every 2 week at least). a motor rebuilt is 15-20k easy. if you bend the door, well 4500 buys you one side. that's what i mean by it's scary cost.

resetting my internal accelerometer is right. at LS, where i brake in my GT3, radicals are upshifting still. i love how it feels and drives, i just dont like the look (when i say i am vain, i wasn't kidding.)

but there is one major pain with radical or storh for that matter. i dont race, just DE. and in a DE environment, even a very very very poorly driven and slow radical will be jammed by traffic every other turn. so much so, most event in CA have to put radicals in a group by themselves. and if you are the radical or two that day, you are SOL .

but if you are SCCA racing, it's a blast in those cars.

mooty

i rather be saying "i've got a storh" or " i race FM"