Ceramic Bake Pads Wear
03-03-2008, 10:52 AM
#16
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About 3000 miles that were 70/30 track/street. The fronts had about 30% remaining, the rears about 50%. I replaced all four at the same time with the green motorsport pads, and sourced the new pads through Suncoast. IIRC both axles were less than $500. The rotors show basically zero wear.
I brake hard and late. Your mileage may vary.
I brake hard and late. Your mileage may vary.
03-03-2008, 11:06 AM
#17
I think you do a little more research, and "maybe" not focus on the negatives and myths.
The option costs $8300 or so, not very high really. If concerned, you can replace the front rotors for about $1K to preserve the ceramics for resale.
Or, you can get some professional instruction to learn how to use brakes (and preserve the ceramics as well).
The ceramics are fantastic, off track potential for damage is no more of a consideration than is the cost of a replacement car. I have not yet met a driver who can go off track and limit the damage to the ceramics, so, all in all, you have to consider the cost of the car for an off track excursion (and $120K versus $128,300.. who cares?).
I bought Porsches with ceramics, tracked them. I bought Porsches without ceramics (after being scared about all the negatives), tracked them. I discovered there was a lot of BS posted about the ceramics to justify poor driving/braking technique.
Never having had a problem with either..I will never buy another car without ceramics (assuming it is an option), and certainly will always buy Porsches with ceramics they are that good.
If you have to buy pads after 7500 miles, well I guess you had some fun!
Review your sources and your opinion, and no, you are not being flamed.
The option costs $8300 or so, not very high really. If concerned, you can replace the front rotors for about $1K to preserve the ceramics for resale.
Or, you can get some professional instruction to learn how to use brakes (and preserve the ceramics as well).
The ceramics are fantastic, off track potential for damage is no more of a consideration than is the cost of a replacement car. I have not yet met a driver who can go off track and limit the damage to the ceramics, so, all in all, you have to consider the cost of the car for an off track excursion (and $120K versus $128,300.. who cares?).
I bought Porsches with ceramics, tracked them. I bought Porsches without ceramics (after being scared about all the negatives), tracked them. I discovered there was a lot of BS posted about the ceramics to justify poor driving/braking technique.
Never having had a problem with either..I will never buy another car without ceramics (assuming it is an option), and certainly will always buy Porsches with ceramics they are that good.
If you have to buy pads after 7500 miles, well I guess you had some fun!
Review your sources and your opinion, and no, you are not being flamed.
03-03-2008, 11:12 AM
#18
Burning Brakes
Personally I would never pay with tax 9k for the pccb.I have outbraked more cars with pccb than I can count.The steel brakes are as good and other than the little extra weight the is no difference in braking distances.There may be alittle less fade but I'm not so sure.
03-03-2008, 02:00 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
my rear pads were noticable worn after 2800 miles (including 50 laps of the ring) but the PCCB's are worth it!
03-03-2008, 03:20 PM
#20
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well larry, after 50 laps of the ring (IIRC you were running ~pretty fast lap times) that's a whole different kind of mileage/usage than street! haha
billy, you're probably just a much better driver than those other guys
billy, you're probably just a much better driver than those other guys
03-03-2008, 03:24 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
yeah they were all around 8:00-8:15 or so ...
does show the bias between the front and rear!
does show the bias between the front and rear!
03-03-2008, 10:20 PM
#22
What is the process for bedding in the brakes when new?
Tim, from my limited experience tracking the car and driving on street with the pccb- just keep in mind the following:
*you actually can feel the unsprung weight difference
*they stop better because they're of larger diameter and swept pad area than iron rotors
*if you properly bed in the rotors and pads, they will last a really really long time- especially if driven on the street.
*compared to similar technology from ferrari or lamborghini- you're paying 50% less up front...
*if you wear them out, you can bolt on all sorts of different hats and rotors...
if you fail to bed in rotors properly- whether iron or pccb, you're cutting the lifespan on them significantly...if your brakes squeak, chances are you didn't bed them in extensively enough.
I share colm's sentiments- I love the pccb and will get them on my next porsche. If you track the car- as long as you use proper technique, heating up and cooling down, your mileage should be very high.
*you actually can feel the unsprung weight difference
*they stop better because they're of larger diameter and swept pad area than iron rotors
*if you properly bed in the rotors and pads, they will last a really really long time- especially if driven on the street.
*compared to similar technology from ferrari or lamborghini- you're paying 50% less up front...
*if you wear them out, you can bolt on all sorts of different hats and rotors...
if you fail to bed in rotors properly- whether iron or pccb, you're cutting the lifespan on them significantly...if your brakes squeak, chances are you didn't bed them in extensively enough.
I share colm's sentiments- I love the pccb and will get them on my next porsche. If you track the car- as long as you use proper technique, heating up and cooling down, your mileage should be very high.
03-04-2008, 05:13 AM
#23
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03-04-2008, 06:27 AM
#25
Race Car
03-04-2008, 10:15 AM
#26
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When I was in Europe, my good RL buddy Robin St. Clair aka nordschliefe sent me this.
He is probably the single most knowledgeable dude on german cars and travel, and as a New Zealand/UK dual citizen with american family ties- probably the funniest guy too. I used these instructions on my GT3 and by the time I tracked the car it was amazing how well and fade free the steels were, and how much better the initial grip was, even around town.
pretty sure he wrote this for audi, it was posted a while back on the board.
Break-In & Maintenance
Failure to follow these procedures will cause permanent damage to your brake system and will prevent it from operating at its full potential. Carefully follow these instructions to avoid damage to your rotors, pads and the entire brake system.
Nearly all brake system problems are due to improper installation and/or break-in of rotors and pads. By following these instructions you will avoid most of the causes of poor brake performance and vibration. When breaking-in rotors and pads you are heat cycling these parts. Additionally, a layer of pad material is deposited onto the rotors surface. This is essential and fundamental for the proper operation of the brake system. If not bedded-in properly, an uneven layer of pad material is deposited onto the rotor surface making the steering wheel vibrate and/or a pulsating brake pedal effect. In almost all instances of the “warped rotor” effect, the actual cause found to be uneven deposition of pad material on the rotor surface.
Under moderate driving conditions, the new brake system will be bedded-in over 500-1000 km (300-600 miles). There is specific bedding in procedures.
If performing the specific bedding in procedure, great care must be taken not to inconvenience other road users or endanger yourself or other road users. It is suggested that bedding in should be carried out on closed roads or other private driving area, such as an airfield.
Firstly, perform a series of 10-15 stops from 80-100 km/h (50-60 mph) to 20 km/h (12 mp/h) using a light pedal pressure. The exact speed is not important. As soon as you have slowed, accelerate again to 100 km/h and repeat the procedure. It is most important that you do not come to a complete halt as pad material would be imprinted onto a single part of the rotor surface which will cause vibrations later.
After the 7th or 8th stop, expect the rotors to smoke slightly. This is normal and will not affect the bedding-in result in any way. Usually this is accompanied by a characteristic smell.
After the 8th or 9th stop, expect slight fading, this is normal and will go away once the brakes have cooled down completely. After this first stage of the bedding-in procedure, the rotor should show a light gray surface. If race pads are used, add 4-5 stops from 140 km/h to 20 km/h (80-12 mp/h) with light to medium pedal pressure.
At this stage, the brake system still does not operate at its full capacity. The brake pad is attached to maybe 20% of the rotor surface. Two or three more cycles are needed to get the brakes working at their real capacity.
To cool the system down, drive the car for a distance at 80 km/h only using the brakes sparingly. This will allow the proper flow of ventilating air through the rotors. When finally stopping the car, do not use the hand brake when parking.
Repeat the above cycle once or twice, optionally carry out the next stage.
Carry out this optional stage whilst the brakes are still warm. Accelerate to 180 km/h and brake firmly to 20 km/h, repeat this cycle 8 times without coming to a complete stop. At no stage should your braking effort exceed 85% of the ABS intervention threshold. You should notice the strong characteristic smell by the 4th iteration.
There may still be marks of the machining visible on the rotor surface. These will go away after the first 500-1000 km (300-600 miles). As soon as you do not see these marks anymore and the rotor surface is smooth with the same colour all over, you will have full heat transfer and braking power of your brake system. Always make sure to cool the brakes down completely between each cycle. A cycle is a series of stops to break-in the rotors and pads. The more patience you have and the longer you will break-in the rotors and pads, the better the result will be.
During the breaking-in of the brake system, hard stops from high speeds should be avoided. Rotors and pads may be damaged doing this.
Breaking-in the pads should not be done in wet road conditions. Inspect your brake rotors and pads regularly. Clean the holes with a suitable tool regularly to avoid brake rotor failure and excessive wear. Inspect the brake rotors for cracks as shown in the attached sheet. Cracks of up to 4 mm around the holes are “normal” and do not affect your brake system’s performance in any kind. cracks from the “outer” hole to the outer diameter of the rotor may lead to a complete cracking of the rotors and may cause severe damage to the suspension and as a result to the complete car. If the rotors show cracks to the outer diameter replace them at once.
He is probably the single most knowledgeable dude on german cars and travel, and as a New Zealand/UK dual citizen with american family ties- probably the funniest guy too. I used these instructions on my GT3 and by the time I tracked the car it was amazing how well and fade free the steels were, and how much better the initial grip was, even around town.
pretty sure he wrote this for audi, it was posted a while back on the board.
Break-In & Maintenance
Failure to follow these procedures will cause permanent damage to your brake system and will prevent it from operating at its full potential. Carefully follow these instructions to avoid damage to your rotors, pads and the entire brake system.
Nearly all brake system problems are due to improper installation and/or break-in of rotors and pads. By following these instructions you will avoid most of the causes of poor brake performance and vibration. When breaking-in rotors and pads you are heat cycling these parts. Additionally, a layer of pad material is deposited onto the rotors surface. This is essential and fundamental for the proper operation of the brake system. If not bedded-in properly, an uneven layer of pad material is deposited onto the rotor surface making the steering wheel vibrate and/or a pulsating brake pedal effect. In almost all instances of the “warped rotor” effect, the actual cause found to be uneven deposition of pad material on the rotor surface.
Under moderate driving conditions, the new brake system will be bedded-in over 500-1000 km (300-600 miles). There is specific bedding in procedures.
If performing the specific bedding in procedure, great care must be taken not to inconvenience other road users or endanger yourself or other road users. It is suggested that bedding in should be carried out on closed roads or other private driving area, such as an airfield.
Firstly, perform a series of 10-15 stops from 80-100 km/h (50-60 mph) to 20 km/h (12 mp/h) using a light pedal pressure. The exact speed is not important. As soon as you have slowed, accelerate again to 100 km/h and repeat the procedure. It is most important that you do not come to a complete halt as pad material would be imprinted onto a single part of the rotor surface which will cause vibrations later.
After the 7th or 8th stop, expect the rotors to smoke slightly. This is normal and will not affect the bedding-in result in any way. Usually this is accompanied by a characteristic smell.
After the 8th or 9th stop, expect slight fading, this is normal and will go away once the brakes have cooled down completely. After this first stage of the bedding-in procedure, the rotor should show a light gray surface. If race pads are used, add 4-5 stops from 140 km/h to 20 km/h (80-12 mp/h) with light to medium pedal pressure.
At this stage, the brake system still does not operate at its full capacity. The brake pad is attached to maybe 20% of the rotor surface. Two or three more cycles are needed to get the brakes working at their real capacity.
To cool the system down, drive the car for a distance at 80 km/h only using the brakes sparingly. This will allow the proper flow of ventilating air through the rotors. When finally stopping the car, do not use the hand brake when parking.
Repeat the above cycle once or twice, optionally carry out the next stage.
Carry out this optional stage whilst the brakes are still warm. Accelerate to 180 km/h and brake firmly to 20 km/h, repeat this cycle 8 times without coming to a complete stop. At no stage should your braking effort exceed 85% of the ABS intervention threshold. You should notice the strong characteristic smell by the 4th iteration.
There may still be marks of the machining visible on the rotor surface. These will go away after the first 500-1000 km (300-600 miles). As soon as you do not see these marks anymore and the rotor surface is smooth with the same colour all over, you will have full heat transfer and braking power of your brake system. Always make sure to cool the brakes down completely between each cycle. A cycle is a series of stops to break-in the rotors and pads. The more patience you have and the longer you will break-in the rotors and pads, the better the result will be.
During the breaking-in of the brake system, hard stops from high speeds should be avoided. Rotors and pads may be damaged doing this.
Breaking-in the pads should not be done in wet road conditions. Inspect your brake rotors and pads regularly. Clean the holes with a suitable tool regularly to avoid brake rotor failure and excessive wear. Inspect the brake rotors for cracks as shown in the attached sheet. Cracks of up to 4 mm around the holes are “normal” and do not affect your brake system’s performance in any kind. cracks from the “outer” hole to the outer diameter of the rotor may lead to a complete cracking of the rotors and may cause severe damage to the suspension and as a result to the complete car. If the rotors show cracks to the outer diameter replace them at once.
03-06-2008, 02:11 AM
#27
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FYI.
I had the rear pads replaced today and noticed that the fronts needs replacement as well.
It is about 20-25% left, 2 weeks ago it was at about 60-65%. That is pretty weird.
It seams that the last 60% of the pads wear out much faster.
So anyone with ceremic breaks need to check your pads on a more frequent intervals after the first 40% or so of wear. or it could cost you a boundle.
I had the rear pads replaced today and noticed that the fronts needs replacement as well.
It is about 20-25% left, 2 weeks ago it was at about 60-65%. That is pretty weird.
It seams that the last 60% of the pads wear out much faster.
So anyone with ceremic breaks need to check your pads on a more frequent intervals after the first 40% or so of wear. or it could cost you a boundle.
03-07-2008, 10:39 AM
#28
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Thanks, Kieran
03-07-2008, 05:47 PM
#29
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actually it's even more important to follow this with ceramics...mashing the brakes while cold can do a lot of damage according to the manual. remember to use "light" pedal pressure on the first few and "medium" on the second or third round of stops. enjoy!
