Appears that the heat is turning down on the GT3's
05-31-2007, 09:17 AM
#16
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by RonCT
Good point - we are talking about the GT3 RSAmerica... Hard to believe at eBay right now there are 4 black and orange RS on the market...
05-31-2007, 09:30 AM
#17
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by LVDell
For that we would need to head over to Europe 
05-31-2007, 09:33 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
ok i can't take it anymore...correct me if im wrong..but porsche makes STREET cars with an emphasis on racing/track..to each his/her own..i myself believe a track car should be exclusively for the track ( i.e. one or two lightweight seats, no radio,ac pw,pl, no carpets etc..etc ) otherwise any other car on the track is a street car where options should not be judged..so those on the micheal shumacher high horse need to take into account what thier own vehicles are made for..just my .02
05-31-2007, 10:19 AM
#19
Racer
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: South Florida
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by speednme
ok i can't take it anymore...correct me if im wrong..but porsche makes STREET cars with an emphasis on racing/track..to each his/her own..i myself believe a track car should be exclusively for the track ( i.e. one or two lightweight seats, no radio,ac pw,pl, no carpets etc..etc ) otherwise any other car on the track is a street car where options should not be judged..so those on the micheal shumacher high horse need to take into account what thier own vehicles are made for..just my .02
05-31-2007, 10:48 AM
#21
Race Car
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,972
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with speednme.
Load your car up with whatever makes you happy. Some like the more purist 'stripper' approach, some like all the bling. I'm in the middle; don't like the electronics but really like full leather, particularly coming out of the cars that I've owned.
Track car? The GT3/RS is not. Track-able, track-worthy? Hell yeah.
After tracking the GT3 and thinking things through, I decided to keep my E36 M3 ltw, put in a new worked euro motor, Motons, a badazz diff, and preserve the 3 for occasional track days, but mostly weekend *street* driving and for my short, twisty commute.
Oh the horror.
Load your car up with whatever makes you happy. Some like the more purist 'stripper' approach, some like all the bling. I'm in the middle; don't like the electronics but really like full leather, particularly coming out of the cars that I've owned.
Track car? The GT3/RS is not. Track-able, track-worthy? Hell yeah.
After tracking the GT3 and thinking things through, I decided to keep my E36 M3 ltw, put in a new worked euro motor, Motons, a badazz diff, and preserve the 3 for occasional track days, but mostly weekend *street* driving and for my short, twisty commute.
Oh the horror.
05-31-2007, 11:03 AM
#22
Moderator
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I've always posted that the nice thing about Porsche is you can get whatever you want. Just hand over your money for expensive options if that's what you want. My point on this was how some of these RS cars are optioned such that they aren't optimal for me or the guys I've met at the track because they are loaded up. It just goes against "old school" guys to see all of these options in the "most track oriented" version of the 911 (997 to 997S to Turbo to GT3 to RS). If you want a street RS, go ahead and load it on. But if you want an RS for track use and don't want all the frills, the ones that appear to be hitting the market are overloaded / just have the wrong feel.
In the past cars were "easier" to categorize as street vs. track orientation. Cars like the 996GT3 had fewer frills and less electronic assistance. If you wanted a car to enjoy on the track, but could still drive on the street, the GT3 was your car. It did not give up track orientation for street manners (standard or optional). The 360 CS was like that too. If you wanted luxury and speed, maybe you got a TT instead of a GT3. But now you see lots of GT3s and RSs loaded up and I wonder what the market is going to be like a few years from now as enthusiasts go to find stripped versions.
My own experience with my E46 M3 was this... I ordered it with almost zero options - manual cloth seats, no sunroof, manual shift, regular headlights, etc. Light as could be - and I had a blast on the track with it, had many people compliment the "LTW" aspects, etc. Some warned "Ron, you won't be able to sell it because of the lack of a sunroof..." - well, I sold it in one week after 4 years of ownership and 50,000 miles for $34,000 -- to another enthusiast who did not want power anything or a sunroof.
In the past cars were "easier" to categorize as street vs. track orientation. Cars like the 996GT3 had fewer frills and less electronic assistance. If you wanted a car to enjoy on the track, but could still drive on the street, the GT3 was your car. It did not give up track orientation for street manners (standard or optional). The 360 CS was like that too. If you wanted luxury and speed, maybe you got a TT instead of a GT3. But now you see lots of GT3s and RSs loaded up and I wonder what the market is going to be like a few years from now as enthusiasts go to find stripped versions.
My own experience with my E46 M3 was this... I ordered it with almost zero options - manual cloth seats, no sunroof, manual shift, regular headlights, etc. Light as could be - and I had a blast on the track with it, had many people compliment the "LTW" aspects, etc. Some warned "Ron, you won't be able to sell it because of the lack of a sunroof..." - well, I sold it in one week after 4 years of ownership and 50,000 miles for $34,000 -- to another enthusiast who did not want power anything or a sunroof.
05-31-2007, 11:08 AM
#23
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Media, PA
Posts: 493
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by scott watkins
I need a secretary to keep up with all this.
Maybe it's good that there's only 229.
Actually, I hope they make enough that all the small dealers get some.
My deposit is at a small dealer!
I'll add these eBay cars to the RS Registry tonight. #2801 & #2648
There are 3 GT3 RS -- green, black and orange -- available at the Motorsports Gallery in Denver. They've been available since at least May 10th. So, whatever they're asking for them, they've been sitting for 3 weeks now.
If I get an allocation I can assure you it won't end up for sale with 27 miles on the odometer.
05-31-2007, 11:18 AM
#24
Originally Posted by RonCT
I've always posted that the nice thing about Porsche is you can get whatever you want. Just hand over your money for expensive options if that's what you want. My point on this was how some of these RS cars are optioned such that they aren't optimal for me or the guys I've met at the track because they are loaded up. It just goes against "old school" guys to see all of these options in the "most track oriented" version of the 911 (997 to 997S to Turbo to GT3 to RS). If you want a street RS, go ahead and load it on. But if you want an RS for track use and don't want all the frills, the ones that appear to be hitting the market are overloaded / just have the wrong feel.
In the past cars were "easier" to categorize as street vs. track orientation. Cars like the 996GT3 had fewer frills and less electronic assistance. If you wanted a car to enjoy on the track, but could still drive on the street, the GT3 was your car. It did not give up track orientation for street manners (standard or optional). The 360 CS was like that too. If you wanted luxury and speed, maybe you got a TT instead of a GT3. But now you see lots of GT3s and RSs loaded up and I wonder what the market is going to be like a few years from now as enthusiasts go to find stripped versions.
My own experience with my E46 M3 was this... I ordered it with almost zero options - manual cloth seats, no sunroof, manual shift, regular headlights, etc. Light as could be - and I had a blast on the track with it, had many people compliment the "LTW" aspects, etc. Some warned "Ron, you won't be able to sell it because of the lack of a sunroof..." - well, I sold it in one week after 4 years of ownership and 50,000 miles for $34,000 -- to another enthusiast who did not want power anything or a sunroof.
In the past cars were "easier" to categorize as street vs. track orientation. Cars like the 996GT3 had fewer frills and less electronic assistance. If you wanted a car to enjoy on the track, but could still drive on the street, the GT3 was your car. It did not give up track orientation for street manners (standard or optional). The 360 CS was like that too. If you wanted luxury and speed, maybe you got a TT instead of a GT3. But now you see lots of GT3s and RSs loaded up and I wonder what the market is going to be like a few years from now as enthusiasts go to find stripped versions.
My own experience with my E46 M3 was this... I ordered it with almost zero options - manual cloth seats, no sunroof, manual shift, regular headlights, etc. Light as could be - and I had a blast on the track with it, had many people compliment the "LTW" aspects, etc. Some warned "Ron, you won't be able to sell it because of the lack of a sunroof..." - well, I sold it in one week after 4 years of ownership and 50,000 miles for $34,000 -- to another enthusiast who did not want power anything or a sunroof.
And it's a symptom of the market that the after-market vendors aren't making weight-saving products, they're making bling.
You can see from the projects of the few guys with the cash and the intent to lighten the 997 and the 996 before it, finding things like lightweight cabin trim or manual windows or thin DOT glass is a struggle.
While I'm not a huge fan of the 360 Challenge Stradale, Porsche has nothing to compare (no offense to the 996 GT3 RS in other markets.) Porsche doesn't even make a light weight cabin. Although there are rumours of the GT2 (incredibly) getting some weight-saving elements. Here's hoping.
05-31-2007, 11:43 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by RonCT
The real funny part is the guys laughing owned incredible cars like RUF, 996 Cup Car, etc. for the track, had incredible trailers / tow vehicles, were supported by companies like FBL, etc. Each is truly wealthy and could by any car on the planet. These are the guys that are semi-retired that spend 30+ days floating around DEs and club races. I think the point in the "joke" was that the RS of all cars was to be the pinnacle of track-ready oem Porsche - an answer to the Ferrari CS. And to see all sorts of heated power seats, navigation, full leather, deviated stitching and colored belts, "look at me" colors and graphics, and the cherry on top - a coffee mug in the cup holder - was just too much for them to bear.
05-31-2007, 12:03 PM
#27
Instructor
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry Ron, i still don't get it...if you own an RS and you drive it around (or a C2, or a C2, or a C4 or whatever you like for that matter), navigation seems pretty useful to me. What is the problem, the "added weight"? How much time you think you will take off your lap times at LR by deleting it? 1/1000 of a sec? And even if it did, who cares? DE and track days are not about racing, they are about having fun and using our cars as close as potential as possible. Now, if we are talking RACING, then that is something totally different and you'd be right...
05-31-2007, 12:12 PM
#28
Moderator
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I'm not saying I'm right or wrong. I'm saying there's a philosophy with just about everyone I've met over 5 years at DEs. Nobody is racing, just serious DE guys - and yes, they are thinking about shaving seconds (more likely 10ths). The same reason you go from a street tire to an R-comp - to get around the track quicker. Switching from RA1s to PSCs might shave 5 lbs off each tire, and that translates into time.
It's the "idea" that if we want a car that performs as well as possible on the track, but is also a street car because we can't / won't bother with a trailer, then things like no sunroof, no navi, no power seat mechanisms do make a difference. Why do you think there was such an outcry here at RL when Porsche announced the GT3 would come with a mandatory sunroof?
Add it all up - 10 lbs for PCM / Navi may not seem like that much, but then add in the 6-disc changer, 50 lbs (guess) for seat actuators, etc. and you see the point. A car might be 100 lbs heavier because it's loaded up - and if that car is a GT3 RS, then I understand why some people wonder because much of the added cost of the car is light-weight parts and pieces. Porsche might spend a million dollars creating something that saves 10 lbs on the RS, but then the consumer goes ahead and spends $3k to add that 10 lbs back in for PCM / Navi.
It's the "idea" that if we want a car that performs as well as possible on the track, but is also a street car because we can't / won't bother with a trailer, then things like no sunroof, no navi, no power seat mechanisms do make a difference. Why do you think there was such an outcry here at RL when Porsche announced the GT3 would come with a mandatory sunroof?
Add it all up - 10 lbs for PCM / Navi may not seem like that much, but then add in the 6-disc changer, 50 lbs (guess) for seat actuators, etc. and you see the point. A car might be 100 lbs heavier because it's loaded up - and if that car is a GT3 RS, then I understand why some people wonder because much of the added cost of the car is light-weight parts and pieces. Porsche might spend a million dollars creating something that saves 10 lbs on the RS, but then the consumer goes ahead and spends $3k to add that 10 lbs back in for PCM / Navi.
05-31-2007, 12:34 PM
#29
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by tocho1
DE and track days are not about racing, they are about having fun and using our cars as close as potential as possible.
05-31-2007, 12:34 PM
#30
Instructor
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But Ron, please...for 90% of us out there, getting the tire pressure right will shave off more seconds to your lap than deleting all the stuff from the car, not to mention doing a few laps with a good instructor on the side (which Im sure adds to the weight too)...
You may disagree or not, be right or wrong, I dont think I can care less, but walking to a car and "laughing" about it, please....Imagine Jorg Bergmeister stopping by at one of your DE events and laughing about all the "pretend to be racing pilots there"?
You may disagree or not, be right or wrong, I dont think I can care less, but walking to a car and "laughing" about it, please....Imagine Jorg Bergmeister stopping by at one of your DE events and laughing about all the "pretend to be racing pilots there"?