3 days at Watkins Glen (report)
05-09-2007, 11:05 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
3 days at Watkins Glen (report)
- lucked out with fantastic weather
- 1 day with track masters and 2 days with pda
- it had been 12 months since my first and only visit to WG and with a very different car this time, plus new paving of #1, #5 and #6 (my visual clues were all gone) the first day i had a lot to learn
things to note
1) new paving is fantastic
2) car with track setup, full wing, hot temps (32F, 34R), FIRM setting was very fun to drive and basically "neutral" from my perspective
3) TPMS display is VERY INACCURATE and you better double check with a guage
4) i'm a 25 track day completed person and I started at 2:30s and ended up at 2:18s (driving 8/10 in control)
5) I'm still working on proper rev matching and regularly over rev during heel toe downshifts with this flywheel?
6) i never used 2nd gear, but would the next person there please try it in the TOE and HEEL of the Boot and see how it feels - my exit speed at trackout in the toe was 77mph so it should work (I was worried about throttle overstear so I kept it in 3rd)
On another note, I just read the thread about everyone complaining about how much the car pushes on the track - I just don't find this to be the case - may I suggest that everyone that is experiencing this that they try the HOT tire preassures that I was using and confirm them with a guage and not rely on the computer
Another thing, I just bought a new Sony HDD based cam corder for this event, it doesn't work and died due to vibrations - don't buy a HDD based camcorder for your car
Turn #9
Toe of the Boot
- 1 day with track masters and 2 days with pda
- it had been 12 months since my first and only visit to WG and with a very different car this time, plus new paving of #1, #5 and #6 (my visual clues were all gone) the first day i had a lot to learn
things to note
1) new paving is fantastic
2) car with track setup, full wing, hot temps (32F, 34R), FIRM setting was very fun to drive and basically "neutral" from my perspective
3) TPMS display is VERY INACCURATE and you better double check with a guage
4) i'm a 25 track day completed person and I started at 2:30s and ended up at 2:18s (driving 8/10 in control)
5) I'm still working on proper rev matching and regularly over rev during heel toe downshifts with this flywheel?
6) i never used 2nd gear, but would the next person there please try it in the TOE and HEEL of the Boot and see how it feels - my exit speed at trackout in the toe was 77mph so it should work (I was worried about throttle overstear so I kept it in 3rd)
On another note, I just read the thread about everyone complaining about how much the car pushes on the track - I just don't find this to be the case - may I suggest that everyone that is experiencing this that they try the HOT tire preassures that I was using and confirm them with a guage and not rely on the computer
Another thing, I just bought a new Sony HDD based cam corder for this event, it doesn't work and died due to vibrations - don't buy a HDD based camcorder for your car
Turn #9
Toe of the Boot
Last edited by 997gt3north; 05-11-2007 at 07:00 AM.
05-09-2007, 11:42 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Mar 2006
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On r-comps I would guess that taking the Toe in 3rd is fine. It's amazing how much speed you can carry into it.
Which is the other issue. You should not get understeer there because that corner is too fast compared to the ones at Calabogie that caused all the complaints. Plenty of banking so just toss the car in and hold on for the ride.
The only place where I would imagine getting the nasty understeer everyone is talking about is the "off camber" corner right after the Heel corner.
Which is the other issue. You should not get understeer there because that corner is too fast compared to the ones at Calabogie that caused all the complaints. Plenty of banking so just toss the car in and hold on for the ride.
The only place where I would imagine getting the nasty understeer everyone is talking about is the "off camber" corner right after the Heel corner.
05-10-2007, 12:24 AM
#6
Rennlist Member
Nice pics!!
Can't imagine how cool it will be to drive a 997GT3 at WG!
No need for 2nd gear at all at the Glen. On my 997S on RA1s (not the grippiest Rcomps) the lowest speed is 62-63mph close to the apex of the off camber (toe of boot is faster).
Also, the radius are so wide at WG its hard to find any understeer. The offcamber being a decreasing radius corner actually contributes to an oversteer tendency as the increasing yaw rate creates more momentum from the rear. IMO, Hardest corner at WGI in a 911 is the outer loop, since it is mostly a steady state corner and 911s love to either be trailbraked or exiting under power.
The other tricky spot in my 997S is the transition on the first of the Esses where the car's rear suspension rubber bushings make it twitch uncomfortably under full throttle when going over the camber crest.
Can't imagine how cool it will be to drive a 997GT3 at WG!
No need for 2nd gear at all at the Glen. On my 997S on RA1s (not the grippiest Rcomps) the lowest speed is 62-63mph close to the apex of the off camber (toe of boot is faster).
Also, the radius are so wide at WG its hard to find any understeer. The offcamber being a decreasing radius corner actually contributes to an oversteer tendency as the increasing yaw rate creates more momentum from the rear. IMO, Hardest corner at WGI in a 911 is the outer loop, since it is mostly a steady state corner and 911s love to either be trailbraked or exiting under power.
The other tricky spot in my 997S is the transition on the first of the Esses where the car's rear suspension rubber bushings make it twitch uncomfortably under full throttle when going over the camber crest.
05-10-2007, 12:34 AM
#7
Drifting
Thread Starter
- the reason for the 2nd gear comment is that 996tts would pull on me here and given the rpm range of the gt3 over a 997s i think it may be faster to get into 2nd here
- to me the esses never felt uncomfortable at all in the 997gt3, either i wasn't going fast enough (likely) or the 997gt3 has a much improved suspension (for a reference i was at 135mph at track out in #4 and hit 150mph at the #5 marker in the braking zone at the bus stop
- funny you mentioned the outer loop / #5 - it is now my favorate corner on the track with the re-pave - i would turn in at 83-85mph and just hold it to the apex (car very slighlty rotating) and then apply gas and would hit 105mph at trackout and 118mph (redline in 3rd) at #6 braking zone
- to me the esses never felt uncomfortable at all in the 997gt3, either i wasn't going fast enough (likely) or the 997gt3 has a much improved suspension (for a reference i was at 135mph at track out in #4 and hit 150mph at the #5 marker in the braking zone at the bus stop
- funny you mentioned the outer loop / #5 - it is now my favorate corner on the track with the re-pave - i would turn in at 83-85mph and just hold it to the apex (car very slighlty rotating) and then apply gas and would hit 105mph at trackout and 118mph (redline in 3rd) at #6 braking zone
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05-10-2007, 01:25 AM
#9
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Sony has a HD (High Definition) camcorder that records to memory sticks, that one is ok.
Any camcorder with a HDD (Hard Disk Drive) will cause problems in a car application, unless the car is not running, in which case they're perfect.
Any camcorder with a HDD (Hard Disk Drive) will cause problems in a car application, unless the car is not running, in which case they're perfect.
05-10-2007, 09:29 AM
#10
The Glen
I'm going there next week with Hudson Valley PCA. Can't wait.
Can you comment on brake pads and fluid that you used? Also, did your rear pads wear out disproportionate to your fronts? Did you try the spoiler at the neutral and the more aggressive angle?
I appreciate all your comments about the gears you choose at the track. Did you consider or try 4th gear in the outer loop? Also, third gear seems to be perfect for the toe of the boot, just trail brake more into the camber and uphill portion of the turn with a late apex - keeping on the concrete patch.
Thanks
Can you comment on brake pads and fluid that you used? Also, did your rear pads wear out disproportionate to your fronts? Did you try the spoiler at the neutral and the more aggressive angle?
I appreciate all your comments about the gears you choose at the track. Did you consider or try 4th gear in the outer loop? Also, third gear seems to be perfect for the toe of the boot, just trail brake more into the camber and uphill portion of the turn with a late apex - keeping on the concrete patch.
Thanks
05-10-2007, 10:17 AM
#11
Race Director
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: KC ex pat marooned in NY
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Damn, 150 in the shoots, the most I ever got in my c4s with x73/cups/aerokit was about 139mph at brake zone 5 on the back straight. Can't wait to hit that place in my TT. Were you able to go flat out in the esses? Car looks incredible btw.
05-10-2007, 12:52 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Great pictures! I did not realize Turn #9 was that steep up hill. I am going to the Glen next week with HV/HCP and I can't wait to see the track again. For video the way to go is Chasecam PDR100 and the 520 Bullet lens. The wide angle view is awesome, and the camera is made specifically for high performance driving. Just make sure you get a big memory card such as a 16GB. The Normal setting is just not good enough (I learned this last week at Lime Rock) for DVD quality video. I will be using the highest setting at the Glen, and I hope to get some good video.
p.s. 150mph is pretty darn good before the bus stop. I have only had my 996 GT3 at the Glen once, and I did not feel comfortable going up the Esses. Hopefully, with more seat time in the car this year will be better.
p.s. 150mph is pretty darn good before the bus stop. I have only had my 996 GT3 at the Glen once, and I did not feel comfortable going up the Esses. Hopefully, with more seat time in the car this year will be better.
05-10-2007, 05:14 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by 997gt3north
- the reason for the 2nd gear comment is that 996tts would pull on me here and given the rpm range of the gt3 over a 997s i think it may be faster to get into 2nd here
- to me the esses never felt uncomfortable at all in the 997gt3, either i wasn't going fast enough (likely) or the 997gt3 has a much improved suspension (for a reference i was at 135mph at track out in #4 and hit 150mph at the #5 marker in the braking zone at the bus stop
- funny you mentioned the outer loop / #5 - it is now my favorate corner on the track with the re-pave - i would turn in at 83-85mph and just hold it to the apex (car very slighlty rotating) and then apply gas and would hit 105mph at trackout and 118mph (redline in 3rd) at #6 braking zone
- to me the esses never felt uncomfortable at all in the 997gt3, either i wasn't going fast enough (likely) or the 997gt3 has a much improved suspension (for a reference i was at 135mph at track out in #4 and hit 150mph at the #5 marker in the braking zone at the bus stop
- funny you mentioned the outer loop / #5 - it is now my favorate corner on the track with the re-pave - i would turn in at 83-85mph and just hold it to the apex (car very slighlty rotating) and then apply gas and would hit 105mph at trackout and 118mph (redline in 3rd) at #6 braking zone
I'm faster in a Lotus Elise i the outer loop while the 997S is faster than the Lotus everywhere else (however, corner min speed is lower in the 997S).
05-10-2007, 07:15 PM
#15
Drifting
Thread Starter
sasportas,
- i have pccbs so i used stock pads, motul rbf600 fluid - brakes were perfect - no issues at all - what i find interesting is that when i got rides with my instructors (ferrari stradale and S2000) I would swear that their brakes were better than the pccbs - but both cars were lighter by about 500#s and both were running slicks - when i relayed these comments to both instructors they both replied that they couldn't believe how good the pccbs were - comment here is that I was entering bus stop at 20-30mph faster than they were and i have concluded that being in the passenger seat versus the drivers seats just feels very different
- i did not try out different wing positions (i just want as much rear grip as possible until i learn the car)
- pad wear seems more on the rears but i haven't removed the wheels so it is just a visual thing and eyeballing the rears is difficult
- gears
- entering turn 1 in 4th downshift to 3rd
- foot on the floor, short shift into 4th before #2 but I only go to half throttle on turnin
- i slowly feed the throttle and then fully went WOT in the straight section after #3 was almost completed
- after trackout at #4 i shifted up to 5th (i was only able to do this on the 3rd day when i got enough confidence to take the esses faster - i still was nowhere near foot on the floor in 4th on turnin at #2 - just feed it all the way up)
- the bus stop depends on style (trail braking or not) - i entered bus stop on hit brakes at #5 and then trailed the brakes to the curbs when the right wheel hit then (80mph if i did it properly, 75 if I broke too early - even at 80mph i can see that there is way more mid corner speed to be had here as the car still easily completed the bus stop - i think you could probably hit that curbing at 90mph and still be trailing the brakes until you had to turn left and the car would be fine)
- foot flat on the floor in 3rd exiting the bus stop until just before turnin cone and then maint throttle at 80-85mph until apex then feed throttle until trackout (105mph) then WOT to #6 braking zone at approx 115-118mph (all of this in 3rd) - brake for #6 (abs would kick in in the last 20% of the braking zone - don't know why but couldn't prevent it)
- hard on gas (still in 3rd) until brake into the toe (left front tire on outside concrete corner and then apex 1 foot off cone and then trackout and use extra blacktop after cone (77mph at trackout was my best)
- at the crest of hill at 7500rpm shift into 4th
- downshift for the Heal and take in 3rd
- stay in 3rd until after trackout onto main straight and then shift up to 4th
- i have pccbs so i used stock pads, motul rbf600 fluid - brakes were perfect - no issues at all - what i find interesting is that when i got rides with my instructors (ferrari stradale and S2000) I would swear that their brakes were better than the pccbs - but both cars were lighter by about 500#s and both were running slicks - when i relayed these comments to both instructors they both replied that they couldn't believe how good the pccbs were - comment here is that I was entering bus stop at 20-30mph faster than they were and i have concluded that being in the passenger seat versus the drivers seats just feels very different
- i did not try out different wing positions (i just want as much rear grip as possible until i learn the car)
- pad wear seems more on the rears but i haven't removed the wheels so it is just a visual thing and eyeballing the rears is difficult
- gears
- entering turn 1 in 4th downshift to 3rd
- foot on the floor, short shift into 4th before #2 but I only go to half throttle on turnin
- i slowly feed the throttle and then fully went WOT in the straight section after #3 was almost completed
- after trackout at #4 i shifted up to 5th (i was only able to do this on the 3rd day when i got enough confidence to take the esses faster - i still was nowhere near foot on the floor in 4th on turnin at #2 - just feed it all the way up)
- the bus stop depends on style (trail braking or not) - i entered bus stop on hit brakes at #5 and then trailed the brakes to the curbs when the right wheel hit then (80mph if i did it properly, 75 if I broke too early - even at 80mph i can see that there is way more mid corner speed to be had here as the car still easily completed the bus stop - i think you could probably hit that curbing at 90mph and still be trailing the brakes until you had to turn left and the car would be fine)
- foot flat on the floor in 3rd exiting the bus stop until just before turnin cone and then maint throttle at 80-85mph until apex then feed throttle until trackout (105mph) then WOT to #6 braking zone at approx 115-118mph (all of this in 3rd) - brake for #6 (abs would kick in in the last 20% of the braking zone - don't know why but couldn't prevent it)
- hard on gas (still in 3rd) until brake into the toe (left front tire on outside concrete corner and then apex 1 foot off cone and then trackout and use extra blacktop after cone (77mph at trackout was my best)
- at the crest of hill at 7500rpm shift into 4th
- downshift for the Heal and take in 3rd
- stay in 3rd until after trackout onto main straight and then shift up to 4th