PCCBs Yes or No on a GT3?
02-11-2007, 03:22 AM
#31
You should be aware that the GT3 Cup cars in the Rolex 24 hour all ran red (i.e, steel) brakes.
That said, I feel mild remorse that I chose red brakes, since one can avoid the obscene replacement costs of PCCB rotors by installing someone's steel rotors when the time comes.
I think the comments re recovery of PCCB cost at resale mostly ring true: Doubtful you'll ever recover enough of the $8k initial cost to justify the expenditure, even assuming the gen II brakes aren't disasters like the gen Is.
I do DE events, but I can't conceive of any advantage PCCBs might have for street driving, as the GT3's performance envelope is so capable you'd have to be a lunatic to approach it's limits on the street! OTOH, I've driven a steel-braked 996 GT3 at VIR, and found NO evidence of fade, modulation problems, etc. So, apart from the unsprung/rotating mass advantage, it's hard to see how one would justify PCCBs, except for the bling factor.
Regards,
That said, I feel mild remorse that I chose red brakes, since one can avoid the obscene replacement costs of PCCB rotors by installing someone's steel rotors when the time comes.
I think the comments re recovery of PCCB cost at resale mostly ring true: Doubtful you'll ever recover enough of the $8k initial cost to justify the expenditure, even assuming the gen II brakes aren't disasters like the gen Is.
I do DE events, but I can't conceive of any advantage PCCBs might have for street driving, as the GT3's performance envelope is so capable you'd have to be a lunatic to approach it's limits on the street! OTOH, I've driven a steel-braked 996 GT3 at VIR, and found NO evidence of fade, modulation problems, etc. So, apart from the unsprung/rotating mass advantage, it's hard to see how one would justify PCCBs, except for the bling factor.
Regards,
02-11-2007, 03:37 AM
#32
Originally Posted by khaug
You should be aware that the GT3 Cup cars in the Rolex 24 hour all ran red (i.e, steel) brakes.
That said, I feel mild remorse that I chose red brakes, since one can avoid the obscene replacement costs of PCCB rotors by installing someone's steel rotors when the time comes.
I think the comments re recovery of PCCB cost at resale mostly ring true: Doubtful you'll ever recover enough of the $8k initial cost to justify the expenditure, even assuming the gen II brakes aren't disasters like the gen Is.
I do DE events, but I can't conceive of any advantage PCCBs might have for street driving, as the GT3's performance envelope is so capable you'd have to be a lunatic to approach it's limits on the street! OTOH, I've driven a steel-braked 996 GT3 at VIR, and found NO evidence of fade, modulation problems, etc. So, apart from the unsprung/rotating mass advantage, it's hard to see how one would justify PCCBs, except for the bling factor.
Regards,
That said, I feel mild remorse that I chose red brakes, since one can avoid the obscene replacement costs of PCCB rotors by installing someone's steel rotors when the time comes.
I think the comments re recovery of PCCB cost at resale mostly ring true: Doubtful you'll ever recover enough of the $8k initial cost to justify the expenditure, even assuming the gen II brakes aren't disasters like the gen Is.
I do DE events, but I can't conceive of any advantage PCCBs might have for street driving, as the GT3's performance envelope is so capable you'd have to be a lunatic to approach it's limits on the street! OTOH, I've driven a steel-braked 996 GT3 at VIR, and found NO evidence of fade, modulation problems, etc. So, apart from the unsprung/rotating mass advantage, it's hard to see how one would justify PCCBs, except for the bling factor.
Regards,
I want to add that PCCBs do deliver braking performance that defies belief and has brought more than one passenger to ask how the brakes can possibly deliver more threshold-braking, neck-snapping performance than the iron brakes (which are equally capable of bringing the front tires to their limits.)
02-11-2007, 03:55 AM
#33
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Originally Posted by Carrera GT
Imperceptible.
The unsprung weight and reduced rotating mass ("flywheel effect") pertain to ideal conditions and optimum performance.
From my experience, you'll notice more impact on ride quality by a change of 2 psi in the tyres than anything you'll do with unsprung weight.
Take the $8K for PCCBs and get two-piece rotors (alloy hat, steel rotor) with better dampers then get lighter wheels and tires. Well, it still won't be discernible to anyone short of the princess that can feel the pea under the stack of mattresses, but the dampers alone will do more for ride quality than the ceramic rotors.
And get a lightweight flywheel to reduce rotating mass.
In short, don't buy PCCB for anything other than on-the-limit braking and handling.
The unsprung weight and reduced rotating mass ("flywheel effect") pertain to ideal conditions and optimum performance.
From my experience, you'll notice more impact on ride quality by a change of 2 psi in the tyres than anything you'll do with unsprung weight.
Take the $8K for PCCBs and get two-piece rotors (alloy hat, steel rotor) with better dampers then get lighter wheels and tires. Well, it still won't be discernible to anyone short of the princess that can feel the pea under the stack of mattresses, but the dampers alone will do more for ride quality than the ceramic rotors.
And get a lightweight flywheel to reduce rotating mass.
In short, don't buy PCCB for anything other than on-the-limit braking and handling.
02-11-2007, 04:24 AM
#34
Originally Posted by khaug
I do DE events, but I can't conceive of any advantage PCCBs might have for street driving, as the GT3's performance envelope is so capable you'd have to be a lunatic to approach it's limits on the street! ...
02-11-2007, 08:02 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by Ray G
I like the bite and general feel of the PCCBs on the street. In the latest 997 generation, it is noticeable compared to iron. My wife's 997 cab has iron rotors, and I can tell the difference right away when I drive it.
Get the PCCBs, you will love them.... and as for resale currently my evidence suggests (no proves) that you will get your money back.
PCCB are fast becoming a must have option. Read the history of the various discussions here and you can see that for yourself. They are here to stay and once you experience them you can't live with out them (sound familiar!)
If you are afraid of damage at the track, a small incremental investment will allow you to put on steel rotors and save the ceramics.
But, unless you overdrive the brakes (or car) you're not likely to encounter problems. The guys I know with problems tend to be fast (very fast) and maybe should be in fully prepped race cars with "budgets" to match.
Mere mortals have less issues!
02-11-2007, 11:01 AM
#36
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Originally Posted by Ray G
I like the bite and general feel of the PCCBs on the street. In the latest 997 generation, it is noticeable compared to iron. My wife's 997 cab has iron rotors, and I can tell the difference right away when I drive it.
Originally Posted by Carrera GT
I want to add that PCCBs do deliver braking performance that defies belief and has brought more than one passenger to ask how the brakes can possibly deliver more threshold-braking, neck-snapping performance than the iron brakes (which are equally capable of bringing the front tires to their limits.)
But, first time you drive a pccb car hard, you're left sort of dumbfounded by the cars ability to dance on the head of pin. Braking with extreme control and precision, as if a layer of opaque glass has been removed from b/t the brake pedal and the contact patches.
I think the Second Opinion from the recent Excellence article explains it relative to the steel braked 996 GT3: in comparison, the steels are on or off w/o all the great modulation you get from pccbs.
Good stuff. I only hesitate on pccbs in terms of durabilty. I guess we'll all find out soon.
02-11-2007, 07:49 PM
#37
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For street driving and occasional track days, if you can afford PCCB, get them. For heavier track use, if you can afford to replace them when needed, get them. It's not a matter of the rotors falling apart anymore, it's a matter of cost.
I've 31,000 miles on my car right now, close to 20,000 of them on an used set of PCCB I bought with 5,000 miles already. Rear PCCB rotors are practically new, this indicates the lack of rear brakes use on the 996 GT3. Fronts are not even half way used, I would say they have 60%-70% life left. These are Gen I with Pagid RS19 or stock black pads.
Given the much better cooling, Gen III, bigger rotors and better distributed brake bias, I think PCCB on a 997 GT3 are a must option.
If I was to track a 997 GT3 a lot, I would get a set of front and rear 997 GT3 Cup steel rotors, 8 studs and nuts for the magnesium uprights, to prevent stripped out threads on these expensive parts.
Resale value of PCCB: Way bellow 50%. I don't see a $4,000 price difference on the 997S in the used market, for having PCCB. Same thing goes to 996 GT3, 996 Turbo, 996 GT2, and a handful of Cayman/Boxster that were ordered with PCCB. However, they make the car more appealing in the used market.
I've 31,000 miles on my car right now, close to 20,000 of them on an used set of PCCB I bought with 5,000 miles already. Rear PCCB rotors are practically new, this indicates the lack of rear brakes use on the 996 GT3. Fronts are not even half way used, I would say they have 60%-70% life left. These are Gen I with Pagid RS19 or stock black pads.
Given the much better cooling, Gen III, bigger rotors and better distributed brake bias, I think PCCB on a 997 GT3 are a must option.
If I was to track a 997 GT3 a lot, I would get a set of front and rear 997 GT3 Cup steel rotors, 8 studs and nuts for the magnesium uprights, to prevent stripped out threads on these expensive parts.
Resale value of PCCB: Way bellow 50%. I don't see a $4,000 price difference on the 997S in the used market, for having PCCB. Same thing goes to 996 GT3, 996 Turbo, 996 GT2, and a handful of Cayman/Boxster that were ordered with PCCB. However, they make the car more appealing in the used market.
02-12-2007, 01:02 PM
#38
I changed my order for my April-build GT3 from PCCB's to standard brakes after talking with the good folks at TRG and Sporthaus. Even one off-track excursion could result in pebble damage to the rotors. And I have enough track experience (10+ years) to know that off-track excursions do tend to happen from time to time, regardless of how fast or slow you go, and regardless of how careful or agressive you are. Just my $.02
02-12-2007, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by lawjdc
I changed my order for my April-build GT3 from PCCB's to standard brakes after talking with the good folks at TRG and Sporthaus. Even one off-track excursion could result in pebble damage to the rotors. And I have enough track experience (10+ years) to know that off-track excursions do tend to happen from time to time, regardless of how fast or slow you go, and regardless of how careful or agressive you are. Just my $.02
02-12-2007, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mitch236
Not only that but the word at the track last weekend is that there may be a cooling problem with the rear rotors on PCCB's. I don't think all the bugs have been worked out yet.
02-12-2007, 02:52 PM
#42
To put the PCCB issue in perspective - I am a big fan of new technology, and I have driven a 997S with PCCB's at the Porsche Driving Experience. I think they are light years ahead of any previous Porsche brakes in so many areas. But at the end of the day, when the car goes into the shop, or is being prepped for the next track day, I listen to what my Porsche specialist mechanics that prepare my car for the track tell me. And they are recommending the regular brakes over the PCCB's. End of story for me. I pay them for their experience and will follow their advice.
02-12-2007, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Carrera GT
Well said.
I want to add that PCCBs do deliver braking performance that defies belief and has brought more than one passenger to ask how the brakes can possibly deliver more threshold-braking, neck-snapping performance than the iron brakes (which are equally capable of bringing the front tires to their limits.)
I want to add that PCCBs do deliver braking performance that defies belief and has brought more than one passenger to ask how the brakes can possibly deliver more threshold-braking, neck-snapping performance than the iron brakes (which are equally capable of bringing the front tires to their limits.)
