Things a little stale in Stuttgart?
07-09-2014, 02:04 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Well as if to answer my challenge;
http://blog.caranddriver.com/porsche...-zuffenhausen/
We just have to keep the fire lit under our German friends!
Jim
http://blog.caranddriver.com/porsche...-zuffenhausen/
We just have to keep the fire lit under our German friends!
Jim
07-09-2014, 02:30 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
Agreed, 991 is a nice car and a mild upgrade, BUT, it's extremely poor value! After you add the options to something you'd really be excited about, it's easily into 130-140K and it's just marginally better than 997 making it an incredibly poor value vs. your trade-in.
I'd stick to mine for a few years more until the repair costs make it untenable... then I'd look at what's out there.
I'd stick to mine for a few years more until the repair costs make it untenable... then I'd look at what's out there.
07-09-2014, 06:48 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
I'll offer a contrarian view.
With regard to pricing, Porsches have always been expensive. My 997 C2S cab was ~ $120K new, so a nicely optioned 991 for $130K does not shock me. It won't be long until nice 991's will be available for what we are paying now for the last of the 997's. And since the world seems to want PDK's, the manuals appear to be the bargains at this stage.
The question asked by the OP was whether things are getting stale in Stuttgart. I would respond by asking, stale compared to when? Until very recently, Porsche made only a single model, albeit with many variants. Incremental changes were made over the years, but with the exception of the 924/944/928/968 era, Porsche's road car development was narrowly focused.
Compare that to where the company is today. They have 6 different mainstream models (excluding the 918 and counting the 981 twins separately), have branched out from sport cars to massively successful SUVs and sport sedans, and are rumored to have new sports cars in development at both the low and high end of the range, along with several new variants of the Panamera. They are also integrating new technology into all their models, following the usual Porsche model of piloting technology at the high end (e.g. 918) and then pushing this downstream.
Setting aside for a moment Porsche's relationship with VAG, they are still a small company in terms of auto sales. They will sell about 160k units this year across all of their models, with the preponderance of these being SUVs and sedans. Historically, that is a lot for Porsche, but it equates to moderate single model sales (e.g. Ford Mustang) for a larger company. It is amazing that Porsche is able to finance their expanding operations with the sale of so few units. They do it, of course, by having the best margins in the industry.
It is my opinion that Porsche is actually hitting on all cylinders. There are occasional disappointments among the faithful (lack of a manual in the 991 GT3, along with a perceived shift away from performance and toward GT luxury features), but the diversity of Porsche products, and the hint of what is comng, is very exciting. And because Porsches can be ordered a'la carte, you can still get a reasonably stripped and sport-oriented car if that's what you want, and if you are willing and able to buy new.
Another way to look at this is how has Porsche done relative to their competitors, specifically BMW? I have owned (actually currently own) BMWs, so I am not into bashing the brand. But I think they have lost their way in a much more significant way than Porsche has. From the crazy model numbers, to the weird styling, to the neutering of the M division, there isn't a car above the 3 series that interests me, while I would happily drive any of the Porsche sports cars, from the base Boxster to a GT3.
With regard to pricing, Porsches have always been expensive. My 997 C2S cab was ~ $120K new, so a nicely optioned 991 for $130K does not shock me. It won't be long until nice 991's will be available for what we are paying now for the last of the 997's. And since the world seems to want PDK's, the manuals appear to be the bargains at this stage.
The question asked by the OP was whether things are getting stale in Stuttgart. I would respond by asking, stale compared to when? Until very recently, Porsche made only a single model, albeit with many variants. Incremental changes were made over the years, but with the exception of the 924/944/928/968 era, Porsche's road car development was narrowly focused.
Compare that to where the company is today. They have 6 different mainstream models (excluding the 918 and counting the 981 twins separately), have branched out from sport cars to massively successful SUVs and sport sedans, and are rumored to have new sports cars in development at both the low and high end of the range, along with several new variants of the Panamera. They are also integrating new technology into all their models, following the usual Porsche model of piloting technology at the high end (e.g. 918) and then pushing this downstream.
Setting aside for a moment Porsche's relationship with VAG, they are still a small company in terms of auto sales. They will sell about 160k units this year across all of their models, with the preponderance of these being SUVs and sedans. Historically, that is a lot for Porsche, but it equates to moderate single model sales (e.g. Ford Mustang) for a larger company. It is amazing that Porsche is able to finance their expanding operations with the sale of so few units. They do it, of course, by having the best margins in the industry.
It is my opinion that Porsche is actually hitting on all cylinders. There are occasional disappointments among the faithful (lack of a manual in the 991 GT3, along with a perceived shift away from performance and toward GT luxury features), but the diversity of Porsche products, and the hint of what is comng, is very exciting. And because Porsches can be ordered a'la carte, you can still get a reasonably stripped and sport-oriented car if that's what you want, and if you are willing and able to buy new.
Another way to look at this is how has Porsche done relative to their competitors, specifically BMW? I have owned (actually currently own) BMWs, so I am not into bashing the brand. But I think they have lost their way in a much more significant way than Porsche has. From the crazy model numbers, to the weird styling, to the neutering of the M division, there isn't a car above the 3 series that interests me, while I would happily drive any of the Porsche sports cars, from the base Boxster to a GT3.
Last edited by kcheves; 07-09-2014 at 08:10 AM.
07-09-2014, 08:11 AM
#35
Three Wheelin'
Agreed: BMW has lost their minds. I decided that when they started pumping fake engine noises into the cabin through speakers.
Porsche seems far from that, and is balancing the iconic 911 and the image it carries for the company with a Boxster lineup that is more sporting and a mid-engine supercar in the works.
BMW is building fat pigs with fake engine sounds.
.
Porsche seems far from that, and is balancing the iconic 911 and the image it carries for the company with a Boxster lineup that is more sporting and a mid-engine supercar in the works.
BMW is building fat pigs with fake engine sounds.
.
07-09-2014, 10:23 AM
#36
Drifting
In 2012, 44% of Porsche sales were Cayene SUV's, and 21% were Panamera. So 65% of their cars were four doors and over 4ooo lbs. Perhaps sleepy on the sports car side, as those sales seem to be shrinking.
from WIKI
from WIKI
Last edited by BIG smoke; 09-08-2014 at 09:41 AM.
07-09-2014, 10:59 AM
#37
Hit the nail on the head here. While the 991 is a better overall car (PSE sounds fantastic) the value gap between our 997's and a 991 makes the trade up unattractive. I'm getting a 20% better car for 300% more money. Quite simply for a nicely optioned 991 I could instead keep my 997 and go buy a new Macan.
07-09-2014, 12:10 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
The base price of a 997 C2 in 2005 was $69,300. The base price of a 2014 991 C2 is $84,300, so the base price has gone up 22% in 9 years. For tht extra $15k, you get a power bump, an extra gear (!) features that were either not available or optional in 2005, and, whether you want I to not, a more refined interior. Setting aside the cost of options (I know...) I think Porsche has done an OK job containing the price.
Where people seem to be getting hung up is in the depreciation of their current cars. Whether we like it or not, these are depreciating assets, and new cars will always seem like a poor value when compared to a car that has already taken that hit.
Where people seem to be getting hung up is in the depreciation of their current cars. Whether we like it or not, these are depreciating assets, and new cars will always seem like a poor value when compared to a car that has already taken that hit.
07-11-2014, 04:27 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Agreed: BMW has lost their minds. I decided that when they started pumping fake engine noises into the cabin through speakers.
Porsche seems far from that, and is balancing the iconic 911 and the image it carries for the company with a Boxster lineup that is more sporting and a mid-engine supercar in the works.
BMW is building fat pigs with fake engine sounds.
.
Porsche seems far from that, and is balancing the iconic 911 and the image it carries for the company with a Boxster lineup that is more sporting and a mid-engine supercar in the works.
BMW is building fat pigs with fake engine sounds.
.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ined-tech-dept
07-11-2014, 04:39 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
The base price of a 997 C2 in 2005 was $69,300. The base price of a 2014 991 C2 is $84,300, so the base price has gone up 22% in 9 years. For tht extra $15k, you get a power bump, an extra gear (!) features that were either not available or optional in 2005, and, whether you want I to not, a more refined interior. Setting aside the cost of options (I know...) I think Porsche has done an OK job containing the price.
good price level for a 997 car was about of $40k for a 3 yr old pre-owned, and it is how I got it in 2009. it is not worth more than that.
only car I like today and what is at its more or less accurate price level is stingray, mustang shelby gt500 are also somewhat realistic, all the rest is imho way above its practical value.
And this practical value for a more or less capable new donor 'sport' car in a base trim floats around $50k. Not $100K.
And as of paying $100k for a base 991 car with some options you have to add anyway - you got to be kidding me.
07-11-2014, 05:38 PM
#41
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
An appropriate question is what should a really good sports car cost?
But in consumer product land, they design to a price point and a target demographic. So who is buying this 120K plus car? Track rats? No way... sure there are few, but the bulk are guys who want a "fast" car, and an expensive one. Yes, they want to pay a ton. Porsche is the most profitable car company in the world on a per car basis..... that should offend all of us.
Oh well.....
Peace
Bruce in Philly
07-11-2014, 07:08 PM
#42
I'll offer a contrarian view.
With regard to pricing, Porsches have always been expensive. My 997 C2S cab was ~ $120K new, so a nicely optioned 991 for $130K does not shock me. It won't be long until nice 991's will be available for what we are paying now for the last of the 997's. And since the world seems to want PDK's, the manuals appear to be the bargains at this stage.
The question asked by the OP was whether things are getting stale in Stuttgart. I would respond by asking, stale compared to when? Until very recently, Porsche made only a single model, albeit with many variants. Incremental changes were made over the years, but with the exception of the 924/944/928/968 era, Porsche's road car development was narrowly focused.
Compare that to where the company is today. They have 6 different mainstream models (excluding the 918 and counting the 981 twins separately), have branched out from sport cars to massively successful SUVs and sport sedans, and are rumored to have new sports cars in development at both the low and high end of the range, along with several new variants of the Panamera. They are also integrating new technology into all their models, following the usual Porsche model of piloting technology at the high end (e.g. 918) and then pushing this downstream.
Setting aside for a moment Porsche's relationship with VAG, they are still a small company in terms of auto sales. They will sell about 160k units this year across all of their models, with the preponderance of these being SUVs and sedans. Historically, that is a lot for Porsche, but it equates to moderate single model sales (e.g. Ford Mustang) for a larger company. It is amazing that Porsche is able to finance their expanding operations with the sale of so few units. They do it, of course, by having the best margins in the industry.
It is my opinion that Porsche is actually hitting on all cylinders. There are occasional disappointments among the faithful (lack of a manual in the 991 GT3, along with a perceived shift away from performance and toward GT luxury features), but the diversity of Porsche products, and the hint of what is comng, is very exciting. And because Porsches can be ordered a'la carte, you can still get a reasonably stripped and sport-oriented car if that's what you want, and if you are willing and able to buy new.
Another way to look at this is how has Porsche done relative to their competitors, specifically BMW? I have owned (actually currently own) BMWs, so I am not into bashing the brand. But I think they have lost their way in a much more significant way than Porsche has. From the crazy model numbers, to the weird styling, to the neutering of the M division, there isn't a car above the 3 series that interests me, while I would happily drive any of the Porsche sports cars, from the base Boxster to a GT3.
With regard to pricing, Porsches have always been expensive. My 997 C2S cab was ~ $120K new, so a nicely optioned 991 for $130K does not shock me. It won't be long until nice 991's will be available for what we are paying now for the last of the 997's. And since the world seems to want PDK's, the manuals appear to be the bargains at this stage.
The question asked by the OP was whether things are getting stale in Stuttgart. I would respond by asking, stale compared to when? Until very recently, Porsche made only a single model, albeit with many variants. Incremental changes were made over the years, but with the exception of the 924/944/928/968 era, Porsche's road car development was narrowly focused.
Compare that to where the company is today. They have 6 different mainstream models (excluding the 918 and counting the 981 twins separately), have branched out from sport cars to massively successful SUVs and sport sedans, and are rumored to have new sports cars in development at both the low and high end of the range, along with several new variants of the Panamera. They are also integrating new technology into all their models, following the usual Porsche model of piloting technology at the high end (e.g. 918) and then pushing this downstream.
Setting aside for a moment Porsche's relationship with VAG, they are still a small company in terms of auto sales. They will sell about 160k units this year across all of their models, with the preponderance of these being SUVs and sedans. Historically, that is a lot for Porsche, but it equates to moderate single model sales (e.g. Ford Mustang) for a larger company. It is amazing that Porsche is able to finance their expanding operations with the sale of so few units. They do it, of course, by having the best margins in the industry.
It is my opinion that Porsche is actually hitting on all cylinders. There are occasional disappointments among the faithful (lack of a manual in the 991 GT3, along with a perceived shift away from performance and toward GT luxury features), but the diversity of Porsche products, and the hint of what is comng, is very exciting. And because Porsches can be ordered a'la carte, you can still get a reasonably stripped and sport-oriented car if that's what you want, and if you are willing and able to buy new.
Another way to look at this is how has Porsche done relative to their competitors, specifically BMW? I have owned (actually currently own) BMWs, so I am not into bashing the brand. But I think they have lost their way in a much more significant way than Porsche has. From the crazy model numbers, to the weird styling, to the neutering of the M division, there isn't a car above the 3 series that interests me, while I would happily drive any of the Porsche sports cars, from the base Boxster to a GT3.
If I was given a new GT3 or M4, I'd certainly keep it for a while but have no desire in long-term ownership of either model. I wouldn't spend my hard earned money on them...
07-11-2014, 08:31 PM
#43
Even if not, I would still spend $131k+ of my money for a 9000 redline GT3 and call it a great day.
07-11-2014, 08:56 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Hit the nail on the head here. While the 991 is a better overall car (PSE sounds fantastic) the value gap between our 997's and a 991 makes the trade up unattractive. I'm getting a 20% better car for 300% more money. Quite simply for a nicely optioned 991 I could instead keep my 997 and go buy a new Macan.
07-11-2014, 09:04 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
I am sorry but 991 street car is nothing but a piece of overpriced junk for posers.
good price level for a 997 car was about of $40k for a 3 yr old pre-owned, and it is how I got it in 2009. it is not worth more than that.
only car I like today and what is at its more or less accurate price level is stingray, mustang shelby gt500 are also somewhat realistic, all the rest is imho way above its practical value.
And this practical value for a more or less capable new donor 'sport' car in a base trim floats around $50k. Not $100K.
And as of paying $100k for a base 991 car with some options you have to add anyway - you got to be kidding me.
good price level for a 997 car was about of $40k for a 3 yr old pre-owned, and it is how I got it in 2009. it is not worth more than that.
only car I like today and what is at its more or less accurate price level is stingray, mustang shelby gt500 are also somewhat realistic, all the rest is imho way above its practical value.
And this practical value for a more or less capable new donor 'sport' car in a base trim floats around $50k. Not $100K.
And as of paying $100k for a base 991 car with some options you have to add anyway - you got to be kidding me.
While yes the car has improved slightly, it really hasn't improved that much vs. the rest of the industry providing you incredible performance for the money... today, 991 base optioned is around 100K, while it is not very impressive at all. Today 991 is tailored for posers, and enthusiasts must get up to GT3 level before getting their money's worth.
I actually think the value play in the new Porsche range is a Boxster, it's got the same engine as 991, it looks great and more exotic than 991, and is half the price! You tell me if 991 is worth twice as much?