kthung

Hello everyone,

Brand new to the forums here, I wanted introduce myself and start a thread detailing my quest to my first 911! I was hoping a thread like this would be helpful to other prospective first time buyers, and it would also be an easy place for me to consolidate all of my own findings and thoughts, and hopefully you veterans out there can chime in and offer your thoughts. So here we go!

First some background

I'll be finishing up my Master's in Engineering shortly, and through years of hard work to earn scholarships covering tuition as an undergrad and attaining fellowships and assistantships waiving tuition for grad school, I will be finishing all of my schooling with ZERO debt. I've earned and saved enough money over the years to reward myself with my first major purchase, a new car. I've always appreciated 911s from a design and engineering standpoint, NOT as a status symbol, but I never dreamed of owning what was essentially a super car so I started researching new cars in the $25k-$35k price bracket. Then I happened upon a craigslist ad for a one-owner 996 with less than 30k miles for $29k.
WAIT A MINUTE WAIT A MINUTE. STOP. You mean I can buy a 911 for the price of a new Accord/Camry/Fusion?? So now we see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

After some research here's what I've settled on
Requirements

• 997.1
• Manual Only
• Budget: $40000 (incl. tax, title, fees, transportation, immediate maintenance etc.)

So I've stretched my budget a little bit over what I was originally was looking at but from what I've garnered from other people's experience is that this process usually takes several months, which can cover that difference. And for that difference I can move up to an early 997.1. No melty egg headlamps

Desirable Options

• C4 or Targa if possible
• Sport Chrono Package
• Heated Seats (New England)
• PSE
• Cobalt Blue (911s look good in any color, but all the silvers and greys out there start to get boring)
• Major Service Recently Done*

So some options that I would like and would be willing to pay a little more for, but not deal breakers. Anything else I don't really care for/am not going to pay extra for. *By major service recently done, I mean I'd rather buy a car with higher mileage (61k for example) that has recently completed its major service than a lower mileage car (55k).

Somethings I would like to
Avoid

• Cabriolet (again, New England)
• Yellow 911s (I like them, I just can't see myself driving one)
• "Lobster ClawsForks"
• Carbon Trim

So that's all so far. Sound reasonable?

Update:
So some notes on how I intend to use the car: This will not be my only means of transportation. I intend to do as much maintenance/repair as possible on my own. I believe cars are meant to be driven, this will most likely be an almost daily driver, not a garage queen. That being said, I currently have no intentions of tracking the car regularly.

Price Tracking
2006 C2 Midnight Blue on Beige 78k MI $33000 (Private TX car, probably never seen snow)
2007 C2 Cobalt Blue on Beige 65k MI $37000 (Dealer FL car, see above)
2005 C2 Guards Red on Black 40k MI $36000 (Private MO car)
2007 C4 Atlas Grey on Black 61k MI $39000 (Dealer MD car)
2006 C2 Seal Grey on Black 40k MI $40000 (Private NJ car)

These are just a couple cars I've found over the past two days. Are these about what's fair for the year/mileage assuming condition is good?

kthung

Some tips I've garnered through reading so far:

• Establish a budget and stick with it! Make sure you factor in dealer's fees, transportation, and any required maintenance
• Be patient. This should be your dream car so don't settle.
• Don't be too afraid of high mileage. 911s have been developed for over half a century and are relatively reliable. Plus most engine issues will probably be worked out by then.
• Be willing to travel, or expand your scope nationwide. (I've found that shipping a car isn't all that expensive) but...
• PPI IS EVERYTHING.
• Research
• Research
• Research
• Exterior cosmetic issues are easier to remedy than a bad interior *Thanks Wheeler
• Negotiate a price prior to a test drive and PPI *USMC_DS1 and blakecam

Feel free to suggest more

Again I want to try and document this whole process from start to finish from the standpoint of a complete noob as a reference so as I post questions and get answers, I'll copy them here so that they're easy to find.

• How do you go about setting up a PPI, negotiating a price, paying, and arranging for delivery? Is this all done over the phone? Do I just call them up and say I want them to take it over to ____ for a PPI, and I get a bill in the mail?
  
  Quote:

  Originally Posted by Mapolus

  4. Call the PPI shop to arrange a time for the PPI. This requires coordination between the seller and the shop, so expect to make a few phone calls (or even pay for towing -- as I learned from some dealerships). You can use Credit Card for this over the phone.
  5. Be sure to explain to the shop what your "Red Lights" are: e.g. XX number of over-revs/leaks/torn leather...etc. This could save you money on the PPI. 997 owners: do you recommend leakdown/compression checks? These are highly recommended for air cooled Porsches, but pushes the PPI price up to $500-600 (depending on the model).
  6. Ask the shop what it would cost to correct the findings in the PPI. Also, post the PPI results here for recommendations. Use the PPI as a tool to negotiate the final price. But, here's the scary part: you then have to commit or bail.
• Let's say I'm buying the car outright, I'm guessing you don't use Paypal for something like this. Is money wiring directly from my account the way this typically goes? Do I pay TX, CT or both sales tax?
  
  Quote:

  Originally Posted by Mapolus

  So, here's what I learned: If it's a private party sale, then you don't pay any taxes until you register it at home (I'm sure you know CT's laws much better than me). If it's a dealer, I've found the best way to avoid paying their state sales tax is to get an affidavit saying that I'll register the car in my home state. Every time I've done this, it required the vehicle being shipped out of state to complete the sale (I couldn't fly-n-drive even if I wanted). Oregon doesn't have state sales tax, so it's worth having it shipped across state lines, even if I just drive it back into the same state. There's also something called "Reciprocity" where you pay sales tax in the dealer's state, but that reduces the sales tax you'll owe when you register it in CT.
• And say I want to have it shipped. Does it come to my doorstep, a local Porsche dealer? Do I owe them a fee too?
  
  Check out InterCity (Forum sponsor, mention Rennlist for a discount). They can ship it close to you, no need to involve a dealer. *blakecam
  
• Also is buying a car sight-unseen uncommon/dangerous? I know some places offer a buyback guarantee, how does this work? Will I have to ship it back and end up being $4000 in the hole if I didn't like the car?
  
  Don't worry about it. Search the forums for "Rennfax". Its a thing.

Little Green

You have it fairly covered specially with the research part.
Don't fall in love with the first one you see until after the PPI the feel free.
Lobsters are farily standard so don't let that stop you from buying a car.
Understand the IMS issue which has been beaten to death on this forum. It affects the early year cars specially the early 05 build years like mine. I will upgrade my bearing when I have my clutch done. I am still CPO until this July so I have a bit of time yet.
Enjoy the hunt for the car

gota911

BTW, the wheels you referenced are known a Lobster Forks, not Lobster Claws.

The reason that they are called Lobster Forks is because the ends of the spokes resemble... you guessed it, lobster forks. There is nothing on the wheel that looks like a lobster claw.

Spinout

Great color choice!! You've got a well established plan. Stick to it and you'll find your car although every time I've been on the hunt for a 911 (2X), my original budget and final budget were not quite as close as when I had started... Looking at the cars within the budget I had set, I always gravitated towards the next tier which I purchased and I don't regret a bit... The hunt is almost as much fun as driving them, have fun...

wheeler

Get an S if possible. 06 or newer. You will have no regrets if you spend a few thousand more for the right car.

Bless you for seeking out a manual!

Don't get TOO hung up on color until you see some cars in person. We didn't have many local cars to see so I went to look at anything that dealers had. Saw a Cobalt 997.1 and didn't care for it in the pics. I went to the dealer and the car was stunning! It was also SOLD. :-) I wanted white and ended up with Meteor Gray. Did I settle? Well, I settled on a pristine car with all the options I wanted and absolutely love as much as white. Wheels are cheap and easy to change. Paint can be corrected and a turd polished for the most part. F-cked up interior, odors, scratches, etc. are harder to fix and more costly to replace and you and your passengers will be looking at it a lot more than the outside when you're driving.

BIG smoke

Hunting for the right car will be emotional and expensive. Stumbling onto a good car will keep you on budget. Drive it, get it ppi'ed, go away and come back to negotiate. Emotions aside.
When spring has sprung, all the 977's come out to play. You'll have more options in six weeks.

php

Just to be realistic here, it will be very hard to find a decent car (gen 1) given your budget. $40k including all tax ($2k), fees (say $300) AND immediate maintenance ($1k - $2k for a high mileage 997) leaves the car you're looking at to be priced around $35k, which doesn't give you a lot of options (search online). If you need transport, that's another $1k-2k depending where you live and where the car is located, and the car price would be more like $33k. That is not a good price range when looking for a 997.1. You might be able to find some high mileage 05s, but those most likely will not be in the best shape that one would want to own, or start the Porsche experience.

I really suggest you up your budget to $47k - $50k out the door, then you will be in much better situation. You can even find some 06s (or slightly higher mileage 07s) with CPO in that price range. Then you can rest assured no matter what goes wrong with the car, $0 out of pocket for you for the next two years. So, I recommend you either up your budget another $7k-$10k, or go for a well maintained 996, and get PPI and IMS done.

I just went through the first 911 purchase experience last Sep so the whole buying/budgeting/debating process is still fresh on my mind. I debated through 996 C4S, 996 Turbo, 997.1, 997.2 all throughout 2013....and yes the back and forth debating was due to my budget constraints.

Schpee007

I recently bought my first 911 after a three month exhaustive search. You've got a good plan and there's great advice in this thread.

Budget is a slippery slope, let me tell you. I started my search with similar budget goals to yours, cast a wider model year net "just to see what's out there" and ended at $61k to purchase a 2009 C2S CPO'd from a dealer in Dallas. I have no regrets, but if budget is important then I would encourage you to limit your temptation by not looking too far beyond your paramaters. And as others in this thread have advised, keep emotion out of your decision making. I am pretty certain I caught first Porshce fever and it cost me at the negotiating table (i.e., I probably could have gotten my car for the same price including sales tax if I'd just been willing to walk away). But I wanted my Aqua Blue beauty! :-)

The search is fun. Enjoy it, and if my search/research experiences can be of any further help to you please PM with any and all questions.

Cheers!

kthung

Thanks for the responses guys. Addressing some points you all made
Lobsters are not a deal breaker, but for me would have to factor into the cost of basically adding another $1000-2000 for wheels. Not a big deal as I plan on getting a second set for snows anyway. Also I understand how the internet tends to inflate problems like IMS. It's not really a concern of mine.

Thanks for the info I didn't know what they were called so I did a quick eBay search. The first listing I saw called them "Lobster Claws" but Forks makes more sense. Still much to learn!

At the moment I don't have any intentions of tracking the car. So I wasn't really interested in a S or a Turbo. By the way, when people say "TT" are they referring to the Turbo? Why two T's? Is cost of ownership higher for a C2S vs a C2?
Also, color is not absolute. Just Cobalt would be my top choice since it is beautiful and not as common. I'd be happy with white, grey, red, black, silver, in that order. Also good point regarding the interior vs exterior condition. Actually the big reason I would prefer a 997 to a 996 is the interior is starting to look pretty dated on the 996, the headlights aren't actually THAT bad.

That's a pretty dangerous game of "Well for just a little more I could get..." At the moment the budget I set for myself is what I'm comfortable paying, but if the right car comes around... of course I know you'll always end up going a little over budget. At the moment I'm just getting a feel for whats on the market in my given price range, and there are a few cars out there. Even if I find one that's around $39k before fees/transpo, I'm hoping I can negotiate down a little bit to recover those additional costs. Even though I've set my out-the-door price goal of $40k all of my online search filters have a $40k max.

blakecam

Sent you a PM.

kthung

Thanks for the PM Jim. Responded.

Also some questions that have come to mind:
So far these are mainly geared towards the actual purchase process
I'm in CT, say I find a car I like near TX.

• How do you go about setting up a PPI, negotiating a price, paying, and arranging for delivery? Is this all done over the phone? Do I just call them up and say I want them to take it over to ____ for a PPI, and I get a bill in the mail?
• Let's say I'm buying the car outright, I'm guessing you don't use Paypal for something like this. Is money wiring directly from my account the way this typically goes? Do I pay TX, CT or both sales tax?
• And say I want to have it shipped. Does it come to my doorstep, a local Porsche dealer? Do I owe them a fee too?
• Also is buying a car sight-unseen uncommon/dangerous? I know some places offer a buyback guarantee, how does this work? Will I have to ship it back and end up being $4000 in the hole if I didn't like the car?

Sorry for the many questions, again I don't really know anyone that's ever bought a car online, and a lot of information on buying a new car isn't very specific or is mainly geared towards walking into a dealership. Thanks for your time and help!

Class VI

TT=Twin Turbo
Good luck with your search. We're both basically looking for the same car, just on different sides of the border.

mapolus

I commend you on your logical approach, I'm sure you'll do well! I bought my first Porsche long distance, so I hope this helps:

1. Pay $40 to join the PCA as a "Quest" member. It'll give you access for 6 months even without owning a Porsche.
2. Contact the local PCA club near the car you'd like to buy. Get a recommendation for a shop that can complete the PPI. Even ask if someone can do an inspection prior to the PPI (I love to look at cars, so I'm happy to do this if someone asks). Someone local might even know the car or have owned it at some point.
3. Negotiate the sales price with the owner contingent on PPI. If it's a private owner, consider putting down a deposit unless you trust the seller to honor your first rights (perhaps you can use PayPal for the deposit?).
4. Call the PPI shop to arrange a time for the PPI. This requires coordination between the seller and the shop, so expect to make a few phone calls (or even pay for towing -- as I learned from some dealerships). You can use Credit Card for this over the phone.
5. Be sure to explain to the shop what your "Red Lights" are: e.g. XX number of over-revs/leaks/torn leather...etc. This could save you money on the PPI. 997 owners: do you recommend leakdown/compression checks? These are highly recommended for air cooled Porsches, but pushes the PPI price up to $500-600 (depending on the model).
6. Ask the shop what it would cost to correct the findings in the PPI. Also, post the PPI results here for recommendations. Use the PPI as a tool to negotiate the final price. But, here's the scary part: you then have to commit or bail.
7. If you bail, you're likely out your deposit (keep it low if seller allows -- like $500), but it's money well spent to ensure you get the car of your dreams.
8. If you buy it, then there's a couple ways to pay. If you finance it, the bank will have instructions for the dealer/individual to complete the wire transfer. If you buy it outright, you can wire funds directly to them. Or consider a fly-n-drive, bring cash or wire funds separately. I find that financing a vehicle makes this part easy...and reduces your risk for fraud. Cheap money these days.
9. Okay, the sales tax is always complicated. I'm in the military, an Oregon resident, who lives in Florida and bought a car from California. So, here's what I learned: If it's a private party sale, then you don't pay any taxes until you register it at home (I'm sure you know CT's laws much better than me). If it's a dealer, I've found the best way to avoid paying their state sales tax is to get an affidavit saying that I'll register the car in my home state. Every time I've done this, it required the vehicle being shipped out of state to complete the sale (I couldn't fly-n-drive even if I wanted). Oregon doesn't have state sales tax, so it's worth having it shipped across state lines, even if I just drive it back into the same state. There's also something called "Reciprocity" where you pay sales tax in the dealer's state, but that reduces the sales tax you'll owe when you register it in CT. I actually passed on a car because the dealer couldn't figure out how to not charge me their state sales tax (7% means an extra $3-4k!).
10. After you agree to buy it, waste no time in calling a transportation company. I used Reliable and it took 5 weeks to pick it up. They were top-notch once they finally got it, but that's a long wait for your new baby! I've heard positive results from InterCity as well. The shipper will get it very close to you, if not to your front door -- something you'll have to work out with the shipper.
11. Sight-unseen dangerous? I was very apprehensive the first time, so I understand that. But, having someone look at it, then getting a PPI, you should feel at ease. Get lots of pictures from the PPI shop. You should feel confident you know exactly what you're getting before you spend $40-45k!

Yikes, that was a lot of typing. I ended up with a 964 Turbo, but the principles are the same (I'd like to buy a 997 when I return from overseas...so I'm sure I'll be asking you questions then!!).

Take care,
Matt

USMC_DS1

kthung, great approach towards securing your 1st p-car. Demonstrates that you've done your research and the responses here are spot on. IMHO the only tweak might be to consider a car which does require a "major service" maintenance done vs. walking away from it... I only say this due to your desire/intent to do most of the maintenance on your own and the engineering(ME?) background. Consider, for example, that if(big if) you are mechanically capable of changing the plugs... well that's a $1,200 job at some p-dealers or just $60 in parts for a DIYer. That type of "major service" requirement could help you secure a car at a better price which others might walk away from... if you DIY. FWIW, we have a fairly extensive list of DIY write ups posted on our forum. https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...ech-index.html

GL and keep us posted on the outcome.