997.1 a keeper!
08-02-2013, 03:58 PM
#46
Drifting
We all have our own opinions and conclusions to make ... I went through this recently with my 2006 C2 cab. The car was CPO, but after seeing an almost identical 06 C2 cab in for a new engine due to the IMS (at 26k miles) at my dealer, and talking to a couple of people who are very knowledgeable about 911 engines, I was not comfortable owning a 997.1 without a warranty. It may be a low percentage chance that you will lose an engine, but if your number comes up it's a staggering bill to pay. I have been driving 911s daily since 1990, and owned several 911SCs, 3.2 Carreras, 993s, 996s and even an 87 930 before getting my 997. I'm familiar with all the foibles and potential problems with each series -- broken head studs on the SC, premature valve guide wear on the 3.2 Carrera, SAI on the 993 -- but it's the IMS issue that's disquieting to me, because there's no warning and it can just let go with disastrous consequences.
So, for me, it came down to either purchasing an extended aftermarket warranty, as many have done, or moving up to a DFI engined car. The 09 and up cars are not inexpensive, particularly if they are CPO at a Porsche dealer. Ultimately I was down to deciding between a "new" 2012 997 C4S PDK cab and a preowned 2012 991 C2 PDK cab.
Driving the 991 convinced me. I am an old-school 911 guy, I drove a 993 for years and years, and have had six of them. The 996s left me flat, but the 997 was the closest "modern" car that retained enough of the old 993 character, but with more power, great handling and safety features. I loved that car. The 991 is a completely different car ... but it is a marvelous car. The 2nd generation PDK is a significant improvement over the first generation, as well, although the first is very good.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me, at least not on this forum, but to me, the 991 was well worth the price of admission. The cost of a new car is very, very high, but the one I bought was somewhere near $25k below its original not-too-outrageous sticker (PDK, full leather, sport chrono) with only 4k miles on it, so I am a happy guy.
My advice to anyone with a 2006-2008 997 would be to research and get yourself a warranty. Chances are you will have a small problem or two that will largely pay for the cost over time. The recent thread about the gentleman whose 997.1 apparently lost its headgasket and imploded is a reminder of how expensive these cars can be if the worst happens.
Neither car is a bad choice -- I loved my 997 -- but sometimes insurance is a good thing to have.
So, for me, it came down to either purchasing an extended aftermarket warranty, as many have done, or moving up to a DFI engined car. The 09 and up cars are not inexpensive, particularly if they are CPO at a Porsche dealer. Ultimately I was down to deciding between a "new" 2012 997 C4S PDK cab and a preowned 2012 991 C2 PDK cab.
Driving the 991 convinced me. I am an old-school 911 guy, I drove a 993 for years and years, and have had six of them. The 996s left me flat, but the 997 was the closest "modern" car that retained enough of the old 993 character, but with more power, great handling and safety features. I loved that car. The 991 is a completely different car ... but it is a marvelous car. The 2nd generation PDK is a significant improvement over the first generation, as well, although the first is very good.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me, at least not on this forum, but to me, the 991 was well worth the price of admission. The cost of a new car is very, very high, but the one I bought was somewhere near $25k below its original not-too-outrageous sticker (PDK, full leather, sport chrono) with only 4k miles on it, so I am a happy guy.
My advice to anyone with a 2006-2008 997 would be to research and get yourself a warranty. Chances are you will have a small problem or two that will largely pay for the cost over time. The recent thread about the gentleman whose 997.1 apparently lost its headgasket and imploded is a reminder of how expensive these cars can be if the worst happens.
Neither car is a bad choice -- I loved my 997 -- but sometimes insurance is a good thing to have.
Frankly, cars are inherently flawed in one way or another. So pick your poison, learn how to properly maintain it, and get an extend warranty if that allows you to sleep better at night. Of course, you can try to convince yourself that you have the best thing since sliced bread because you just bought the newest and the most expensive toy and therefore you've insulates yourself from a lightning strike repair. Hmmm... I just have to wonder if the 996 owner's also felt this way when they bought into that model when it 1st came out. What about the TT and GT3 owners... only to find issues years down the road. GL with the 991 and keep us posted over the years re it's reliability. In general, I prefer to steer clear of the 1st year production models. Been there and done that with our former BMW 540i and x5... no need to repeat those costly lessons learned as a young man.
Have a great weekend all and remember to enjoy the ride.
Last edited by USMC_DS1; 08-02-2013 at 05:44 PM.
08-02-2013, 07:27 PM
#47
Racer
Remember, all insurance/warranty companies set their rates so that their "house" always wins over players. The reason I got my 2008 C2S with only 10,000 miles on it, and in virtually mint condition, for roughly half off its original price late last year was because its factory warranty expired on its original owner. It is the exact same car the day after the warranty expired as it was the day before.
Broken cars are a pain no matter what. So is paying insurance/warranty company premiums year after year for decades. Personal savings is unfortunately a lost art. I simply sock away the money I would have spent in some warranty into an interest or dividend-bearing investment, and lasso the power of compound interest.
Reminds me of the receptionist where I worked in the 1980s who came around collecting $5 from nearly everyone for a group lottery buy. I always thanked her for reminding me, took $5 out of my wallet, and placed it in my shirt pocket to deposit in my special savings account at the bank to collect compound interest. The group actually won a decent pot once, but the win was so diluted by all the players that I still had more money from my "investment" at the end of a couple years.
I am aware I could lose this (very slight) gamble with IMS issues, as I am aware that I might die every time I get on an airplane. But even with a brand new engine replacement (which, incidentally, would have a warranty), I still have spent far less on my pristine 997.1 than if I had bought it new, much less a 991.
Hence, I don't spend any time worrying about it, and I enjoy the heck out of my car. (Please note I am more comfortable with risk than most people, anyway, or I never would have started my manufacturing business.)
I am absolutely counting on those people who bail the minute their warranty is up for a great deal on my next car. Thank you very much. You have saved me a lot of money.
Broken cars are a pain no matter what. So is paying insurance/warranty company premiums year after year for decades. Personal savings is unfortunately a lost art. I simply sock away the money I would have spent in some warranty into an interest or dividend-bearing investment, and lasso the power of compound interest.
Reminds me of the receptionist where I worked in the 1980s who came around collecting $5 from nearly everyone for a group lottery buy. I always thanked her for reminding me, took $5 out of my wallet, and placed it in my shirt pocket to deposit in my special savings account at the bank to collect compound interest. The group actually won a decent pot once, but the win was so diluted by all the players that I still had more money from my "investment" at the end of a couple years.
I am aware I could lose this (very slight) gamble with IMS issues, as I am aware that I might die every time I get on an airplane. But even with a brand new engine replacement (which, incidentally, would have a warranty), I still have spent far less on my pristine 997.1 than if I had bought it new, much less a 991.
Hence, I don't spend any time worrying about it, and I enjoy the heck out of my car. (Please note I am more comfortable with risk than most people, anyway, or I never would have started my manufacturing business.)
I am absolutely counting on those people who bail the minute their warranty is up for a great deal on my next car. Thank you very much. You have saved me a lot of money.
08-03-2013, 10:27 AM
#48
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Alex, because two people look at the same situation and come to different conclusions does not mean one of them made a bad or wrong decision.
In my situation, it evolved from deciding between an aftermarket warranty on my 06 vs. a CPO 997.2. Once I started looking at the 997.2 cars, and deciding on the PDK over the 6-speed in my 06, I compared the 997.2 vs. the 2nd generation PDK in the 991. Once I had driven the 991, I decided it was worth the price of admission for a low mileage 2012. You have your well-written tale of how you made your decision; this is mine.
People have different tolerances to risk; I have flood insurance on my home. I will likely never need it, as we live in a 100-year flood plain, but look at what happened to a lot of people who made a different decision.
I'm very well versed in the weaknesses in all the various 911 iterations, having owned examples of everything north of the 1978 911SC, aside from the 964. But in all those examples it was typically an age and mileage related issue, not a sudden failure. I gladly redid the top end on my 993 to address the SAI problems. I knew it was coming.
Should the engine in the 991 prove to have catastrophic failures, I would not own it out of warranty, either. In my case, that will not be an issue until 2018.
I wish you many trouble-free miles of driving in your 997. As I said, I thought my 06 was a great car. But having seen a car identical to mine in year and mileage having a new engine installed, I would want to own it with some sort of warranty for the peace of mind. That's just my decision based on what I've seen.
In my situation, it evolved from deciding between an aftermarket warranty on my 06 vs. a CPO 997.2. Once I started looking at the 997.2 cars, and deciding on the PDK over the 6-speed in my 06, I compared the 997.2 vs. the 2nd generation PDK in the 991. Once I had driven the 991, I decided it was worth the price of admission for a low mileage 2012. You have your well-written tale of how you made your decision; this is mine.
People have different tolerances to risk; I have flood insurance on my home. I will likely never need it, as we live in a 100-year flood plain, but look at what happened to a lot of people who made a different decision.
I'm very well versed in the weaknesses in all the various 911 iterations, having owned examples of everything north of the 1978 911SC, aside from the 964. But in all those examples it was typically an age and mileage related issue, not a sudden failure. I gladly redid the top end on my 993 to address the SAI problems. I knew it was coming.
Should the engine in the 991 prove to have catastrophic failures, I would not own it out of warranty, either. In my case, that will not be an issue until 2018.
I wish you many trouble-free miles of driving in your 997. As I said, I thought my 06 was a great car. But having seen a car identical to mine in year and mileage having a new engine installed, I would want to own it with some sort of warranty for the peace of mind. That's just my decision based on what I've seen.
08-03-2013, 12:37 PM
#49
Personal savings is unfortunately a lost art. I simply sock away the money I would have spent in some warranty into an interest or dividend-bearing investment, and lasso the power of compound interest..
08-03-2013, 01:12 PM
#50
Racer
From a practical point of view, warranty companies that *always* pay out the amount of the premiums or more simply cease to exist. That for-profit warranty companies even exist is proof that warranty buyers lose more often than not.
I have a personal practice of avoiding paying for *any* form of extended warranty, which tend to be profit generators, often far in excess of manufacturing and selling the products themselves. The key is careful shopping.
I don't always win, but overall the money I haved saved has more than covered my unexpected expenses. I don't have to receive returns on my modest investments to cover the cost of a replacement engine, I only have to receive returns on the *risk adjusted* cost of a new engine, something like a fraction of one percent on $25,000.
From there, practicing stringent preventative maintenance and non-abusive usage goes a long ways. If this fails, I tend to *never* buy that product again. -- you know, "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."
With respect to my current investment strategy, it's mostly in my own company. A huge part of our rapid growth in a depressed industry throughout the Great Recession has been our willingness to back up our products, even when the customer was clearly the cause of problems.
Sales may or may not be proportional to word of mouth, but reputation most certainly is. Then at least some resulting sales growth is probable. With negative word of mouth, I sometimes think sales decline *exceeds* the spread of bad will.
As the helmsman goes, so goes the ship. The character of the Porsche company will reflect the character of top management of both Porsche and VW. We shall see what that is.
Meanwhile, the engine of my 2008 has *not* failed, and my wife and I are enjoying it immensely. And I repeat, even if I lose big-time and destroy my engine, the car plus the cost of a new engine is still a lot of money less than the original, warranty-holding owner paid for the same car.
(I sure hope my wife sees things the same way.)
08-03-2013, 03:06 PM
#51
I'm on the other side of that. My car has been flawless (knock on wood) with no issues thus far and I'm very happy about that. But I have a feeling my extended warranty will have done nothing for me, other than peace of mind, by the time it runs out.
07-16-2014, 01:07 PM
#52
Good post for anyone considering to buy a 997.1.
I recently took the plunge of buying a 997.1 C4S and made a lot of these decisions before even reading this thread (came to many of the same conclusions).
Basically I knew I want to get a 997 (991 is too big, too $$$$). Question was either a 997.1 or 997.2.
I wanted a 'S' or 'C4S' with manual.
After looking for a while I found a PCA owned 07 C4S with under 8k miles for a great price. After a clean PPI and some discussions about reliability and the IMS with many different Porsche techs, I pulled the trigger.
Everyone said the car is great and all it needs was someone to drive it (8k miles for a 07 was the only thing that concerned me, being a garage queen can be bad at times). The owner took care of the car and had great records to show and even the dealer for the PPI offered to buy the car from the owner (owner was a honorable guy and of course didn't even entertain the offer from the dealer).
The final cherry on the sundae was getting a 6yr/60k warranty from Fidelity that will cover most of the big ticket stuff. Due to the low mileage, got a great deal on the warranty - a bit under 3k.
Now I drive the 997 everyday, enjoying the hell out of it and not worrying one bit about an issue. The car has been amazing and everything I thought it would be.
My advice - find the car, if its a clean PPI and owner shows they took care of it - pull the trigger. Its worth it.
I recently took the plunge of buying a 997.1 C4S and made a lot of these decisions before even reading this thread (came to many of the same conclusions).
Basically I knew I want to get a 997 (991 is too big, too $$$$). Question was either a 997.1 or 997.2.
I wanted a 'S' or 'C4S' with manual.
After looking for a while I found a PCA owned 07 C4S with under 8k miles for a great price. After a clean PPI and some discussions about reliability and the IMS with many different Porsche techs, I pulled the trigger.
Everyone said the car is great and all it needs was someone to drive it (8k miles for a 07 was the only thing that concerned me, being a garage queen can be bad at times). The owner took care of the car and had great records to show and even the dealer for the PPI offered to buy the car from the owner (owner was a honorable guy and of course didn't even entertain the offer from the dealer).
The final cherry on the sundae was getting a 6yr/60k warranty from Fidelity that will cover most of the big ticket stuff. Due to the low mileage, got a great deal on the warranty - a bit under 3k.
Now I drive the 997 everyday, enjoying the hell out of it and not worrying one bit about an issue. The car has been amazing and everything I thought it would be.
My advice - find the car, if its a clean PPI and owner shows they took care of it - pull the trigger. Its worth it.
07-16-2014, 01:45 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
Great to see this thread. Seems like there's been too much point1 bashing here lately, mostly to substantiate a point2 purchase, and I understand that. C2S.1 is a beast of a bargain.
07-16-2014, 04:17 PM
#54
Great thread-
I sold my cayman and purchased an 08 C2 recently. I generally don't believe much of what's written on these forums -as it relates to a specific failure or the bashing of a specific model. For me, I have several trusted mechanics and heard the same message; that the cars are great, very reliable and not to worry.
I drive my car quite a bit as well and have done so with all of the Porsche's I've had over the years-everything from 914's, 928's to 911 sc's and carerras. The bottom line -as has been stated by several is that every car has potential failure's. The DI engines can fail, can use oil, may generate carbon on the top of the combustion chambers (as happened to a Mini that I owned), and of course my car could have a IMS failure. I'm comfortable that the last generation of that engine and all of its associated hardware and technology (essentially 10 years of Porsche building and improving this design) is as good as it gets and I going to enjoy the hell out of it for a while.
I sold my cayman and purchased an 08 C2 recently. I generally don't believe much of what's written on these forums -as it relates to a specific failure or the bashing of a specific model. For me, I have several trusted mechanics and heard the same message; that the cars are great, very reliable and not to worry.
I drive my car quite a bit as well and have done so with all of the Porsche's I've had over the years-everything from 914's, 928's to 911 sc's and carerras. The bottom line -as has been stated by several is that every car has potential failure's. The DI engines can fail, can use oil, may generate carbon on the top of the combustion chambers (as happened to a Mini that I owned), and of course my car could have a IMS failure. I'm comfortable that the last generation of that engine and all of its associated hardware and technology (essentially 10 years of Porsche building and improving this design) is as good as it gets and I going to enjoy the hell out of it for a while.
07-16-2014, 04:34 PM
#55
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997.1 92k
I've had my 997.1 manual for several years now and its my daily driver. I am tempted to cheat on her with a new cayman or 991 but can't justify it. My CPO ran out a long time ago and its been a ride. I bought the car with 38k and as soon as the CPO went so did my water pump. I have since had to replace:
shift cables
clutch at 90k also added LN IMS bearing and RMS
oil separator
alternator
I have zero regrets! When I bought the car I knew that I was going to take on the costly maintenance.
I like the new 991 but have not driven one yet so I can't judge anyone for making the jump. Drove base cayman PDK and not for me. Would like to try manual S. I live in Dallas and see more 991s than I ever saw of the 997.
shift cables
clutch at 90k also added LN IMS bearing and RMS
oil separator
alternator
I have zero regrets! When I bought the car I knew that I was going to take on the costly maintenance.
I like the new 991 but have not driven one yet so I can't judge anyone for making the jump. Drove base cayman PDK and not for me. Would like to try manual S. I live in Dallas and see more 991s than I ever saw of the 997.
07-16-2014, 04:53 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Either case though it's still a much better value than a 991!
07-17-2014, 08:19 AM
#58
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I am in the same boat as some of you guys, but I own an early build (Jan 2005) with the smaller IMS. Car comes out of CPO warranty August 2nd. She has 33K miles on it and only had 16 when I bought her 2 years ago. I flat out cannot pay for a new engine but I love my car and don't want to sell it. Talked to my dealer and they have an extended warranty plan that starts at 2800 for 3 years and 36K miles but it's just mechanicals then they step up covering additional things until you get to about 3500 which is as close to CPO as you can get. Thinking it's not a bad idea to cover my *** for a few more years.
Any thoughts? Don't need a clutch or I would just replace the IMS at the same time.
Any thoughts? Don't need a clutch or I would just replace the IMS at the same time.
07-17-2014, 02:02 PM
#59
Nordschleife Master
make sure your car is 100% stock; otherwise they won't let you purchase the warranty.
Nope, there is one company I am aware of and can refer you too. I might buy one but honestly it may not be worth it. Basically, the chance of engine failure (only thing worth getting warranty for), is less than 5%, so take that 25K cost multipled by 5% , you get to something like $1250, and the warranty is $3-4K... is it worth it? Not sure.
Either case though it's still a much better value than a 991!
Either case though it's still a much better value than a 991!
07-17-2014, 02:03 PM
#60
Nordschleife Master
well said!
Alex, because two people look at the same situation and come to different conclusions does not mean one of them made a bad or wrong decision.
In my situation, it evolved from deciding between an aftermarket warranty on my 06 vs. a CPO 997.2. Once I started looking at the 997.2 cars, and deciding on the PDK over the 6-speed in my 06, I compared the 997.2 vs. the 2nd generation PDK in the 991. Once I had driven the 991, I decided it was worth the price of admission for a low mileage 2012. You have your well-written tale of how you made your decision; this is mine.
People have different tolerances to risk; I have flood insurance on my home. I will likely never need it, as we live in a 100-year flood plain, but look at what happened to a lot of people who made a different decision.
I'm very well versed in the weaknesses in all the various 911 iterations, having owned examples of everything north of the 1978 911SC, aside from the 964. But in all those examples it was typically an age and mileage related issue, not a sudden failure. I gladly redid the top end on my 993 to address the SAI problems. I knew it was coming.
Should the engine in the 991 prove to have catastrophic failures, I would not own it out of warranty, either. In my case, that will not be an issue until 2018.
I wish you many trouble-free miles of driving in your 997. As I said, I thought my 06 was a great car. But having seen a car identical to mine in year and mileage having a new engine installed, I would want to own it with some sort of warranty for the peace of mind. That's just my decision based on what I've seen.
In my situation, it evolved from deciding between an aftermarket warranty on my 06 vs. a CPO 997.2. Once I started looking at the 997.2 cars, and deciding on the PDK over the 6-speed in my 06, I compared the 997.2 vs. the 2nd generation PDK in the 991. Once I had driven the 991, I decided it was worth the price of admission for a low mileage 2012. You have your well-written tale of how you made your decision; this is mine.
People have different tolerances to risk; I have flood insurance on my home. I will likely never need it, as we live in a 100-year flood plain, but look at what happened to a lot of people who made a different decision.
I'm very well versed in the weaknesses in all the various 911 iterations, having owned examples of everything north of the 1978 911SC, aside from the 964. But in all those examples it was typically an age and mileage related issue, not a sudden failure. I gladly redid the top end on my 993 to address the SAI problems. I knew it was coming.
Should the engine in the 991 prove to have catastrophic failures, I would not own it out of warranty, either. In my case, that will not be an issue until 2018.
I wish you many trouble-free miles of driving in your 997. As I said, I thought my 06 was a great car. But having seen a car identical to mine in year and mileage having a new engine installed, I would want to own it with some sort of warranty for the peace of mind. That's just my decision based on what I've seen.