IMS replacement dilemma
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2009
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From: MA
I sent my 05 997 c2 off on Tues to get the IMS bearing retrofit done. I just got off the phone with my indie that my car has the revised m97 motor with the larger dual role IMS bearing, which is non serviceable without a tear down of the engine. I am impression the failure rate is significantly lower in m97's than m96's. I appreciate your guy's inputs!
if you want to do it i would suggest to invest more and replace most parts, essentially rebuild the motor, you can put in big bore cylinders getting it to 4L, but it will cost $13k-$16k. just to drop it and replace IMS would be from $7k to $10k job depending of how good(greedy) your shop is, so, decide for yourself.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 117
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From: San Diego, CA
it is financially pointless to drop down M97 and open it up.
if you want to do it i would suggest to invest more and replace most parts, essentially rebuild the motor, you can put in big bore cylinders getting it to 4L, but it will cost $13k-$16k. just to drop it and replace IMS would be from $7k to $10k job depending of how good(greedy) your shop is, so, decide for yourself.
if you want to do it i would suggest to invest more and replace most parts, essentially rebuild the motor, you can put in big bore cylinders getting it to 4L, but it will cost $13k-$16k. just to drop it and replace IMS would be from $7k to $10k job depending of how good(greedy) your shop is, so, decide for yourself.
I have been doing a bit of research, and have yet to come across a first hand account of the larger m97 bearing failing. So in my mind, it is just as good as the LN retrofit. anyways, they ended up finding a wrapped pressure plate, so I had the clutch, rms replaced. Also as LN adviced, I removed on the seals on the bear to increase lubrication. So all in all, not a total wast of money
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,710
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From: Central Jersey
agreed. I talked with my indy, it would be around $10k to do the engine tear down, $14k to have LN bore out the motor to a 3.8.
I have been doing a bit of research, and have yet to come across a first hand account of the larger m97 bearing failing. So in my mind, it is just as good as the LN retrofit. anyways, they ended up finding a wrapped pressure plate, so I had the clutch, rms replaced. Also as LN adviced, I removed on the seals on the bear to increase lubrication. So all in all, not a total wast of money
I have been doing a bit of research, and have yet to come across a first hand account of the larger m97 bearing failing. So in my mind, it is just as good as the LN retrofit. anyways, they ended up finding a wrapped pressure plate, so I had the clutch, rms replaced. Also as LN adviced, I removed on the seals on the bear to increase lubrication. So all in all, not a total wast of money
I understand what you're saying but you should get with the program on your terminology. Unless your car is a Carrera S you do not have an M97 engine. And even if you did have an S (ie the M97) that, in itself, does not mean you have the newer IMS bearings. Some do and some don't, depending on build date. Same with the M96s. Some do ans some don't. So if the dealer is telling you your base car has an M97, I'd go to a different dealer...
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,759
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From: The D
agreed. I talked with my indy, it would be around $10k to do the engine tear down, $14k to have LN bore out the motor to a 3.8.
I have been doing a bit of research, and have yet to come across a first hand account of the larger m97 bearing failing. So in my mind, it is just as good as the LN retrofit. anyways, they ended up finding a wrapped pressure plate, so I had the clutch, rms replaced. Also as LN adviced, I removed on the seals on the bear to increase lubrication. So all in all, not a total wast of money
I have been doing a bit of research, and have yet to come across a first hand account of the larger m97 bearing failing. So in my mind, it is just as good as the LN retrofit. anyways, they ended up finding a wrapped pressure plate, so I had the clutch, rms replaced. Also as LN adviced, I removed on the seals on the bear to increase lubrication. So all in all, not a total wast of money
Not sure I'd have gone that route. Who gave you that advice?
Advanced
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 95
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From: Montreal, Canada
Leaving the seal off completely could expose the ball bearings to foreign debris. Also moisture could develop in the oil and water is a no no for the bearing. As little as 0.002% water in the bearing lubricant can reduce bearing life by 48%. Six percent water can reduce bearing life by 83%.
Google "bearing failure".
Thread Starter
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Joined: Jan 2012
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From: San Diego, CA
I just got my car back today, the production date is Sept/04 and delivery date was Feb/05. So i guess some cars where updated with m97 style IMS as early as 09/04.
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Joined: Dec 2009
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From: Central Jersey
"On a new or remanufactured engine built in or after MY06 utilizing the revised M97 IMS, the only "preventative" measure that can be taken short of our Retrofit kits is to remove the seal off the front of the IMS bearing, to allow for engine oil to lubricate the bearing. Alternatively, you can repack the bearing with a quality synthetic bearing grease and put a new seal (available from any place that sells bearings). This same technique could be applied also to MY97-05 bearings, if found to be in excellent condition, but by this point, the majority of the labor that is required to do an IMS Retrofit would have already been spent, so it's a better value to replace rather than solely inspect and reseal the IMS flange." - from LN's website
I just got my car back today, the production date is Sept/04 and delivery date was Feb/05. So i guess some cars where updated with m97 style IMS as early as 09/04.
I just got my car back today, the production date is Sept/04 and delivery date was Feb/05. So i guess some cars where updated with m97 style IMS as early as 09/04.
1) There's no such thing as an "m97 style IMS." There's no such thing as an "m97 style IMS." There's no such thing as an "m97 style IMS." There are simply old replaceable bearings and new, non-replaceable bearings. There are plenty of M97 engines out there with the old, replaceable IMS bearings (what you would call "m96 bearings," I guess). The LN site quote you point to above is misleading. See this thread - especially post #6.
2) If your car has a build date of 09/04 and has the newer, larger, non replaceable bearings, that goes against all the data we've previously gathered here. Would you be able to tell us your full engine number so we can see how it jibes with the rest of our numbers? That would be some great information.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 16,265
Likes: 7
From: NJ
There's no such thing as an "m97 style IMS." There are simply old replaceable bearings and new, non-replaceable bearings. There are plenty of M97 engines out there with the old, replaceable IMS bearings (what you would call "m96 bearings," I guess). The LN site quote you point to above is misleading. See this thread - especially post #6.
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Thread Starter
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 117
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From: San Diego, CA
gordon, save yourself the headache and read LN Engineering's website regarding IMS. better yet, call them like I have done. here, i will spell it out for you, direct quotes from LN
"On a new or remanufactured engine built in or after MY06 utilizing the revised M97 IMS, the only "preventative" measure that can be taken short of our Retrofit kits is to remove the seal off the front of the IMS bearing, to allow for engine oil to lubricate the bearing."
"A separate ceramic hybrid bearing upgrade is available for the late-style MY06-08 M97 IMS as well."
"although depending on how late the build date was, there may be some MY05 vehicles with the updated M97 IMS, which is not serviceable, at least without teardown of the engine."
bottom line is the larger non-replaceable IMS is the updated M97 IMS, which is found typically in MY06+ M96 (3.6) and M97(3.8) motors
"On a new or remanufactured engine built in or after MY06 utilizing the revised M97 IMS, the only "preventative" measure that can be taken short of our Retrofit kits is to remove the seal off the front of the IMS bearing, to allow for engine oil to lubricate the bearing."
"A separate ceramic hybrid bearing upgrade is available for the late-style MY06-08 M97 IMS as well."
"although depending on how late the build date was, there may be some MY05 vehicles with the updated M97 IMS, which is not serviceable, at least without teardown of the engine."
bottom line is the larger non-replaceable IMS is the updated M97 IMS, which is found typically in MY06+ M96 (3.6) and M97(3.8) motors
My head is starting to spin. 2 things:
1) There's no such thing as an "m97 style IMS." There's no such thing as an "m97 style IMS." There's no such thing as an "m97 style IMS." There are simply old replaceable bearings and new, non-replaceable bearings. There are plenty of M97 engines out there with the old, replaceable IMS bearings (what you would call "m96 bearings," I guess). The LN site quote you point to above is misleading. See this thread - especially post #6.
2) If your car has a build date of 09/04 and has the newer, larger, non replaceable bearings, that goes against all the data we've previously gathered here. Would you be able to tell us your full engine number so we can see how it jibes with the rest of our numbers? That would be some great information.
1) There's no such thing as an "m97 style IMS." There's no such thing as an "m97 style IMS." There's no such thing as an "m97 style IMS." There are simply old replaceable bearings and new, non-replaceable bearings. There are plenty of M97 engines out there with the old, replaceable IMS bearings (what you would call "m96 bearings," I guess). The LN site quote you point to above is misleading. See this thread - especially post #6.
2) If your car has a build date of 09/04 and has the newer, larger, non replaceable bearings, that goes against all the data we've previously gathered here. Would you be able to tell us your full engine number so we can see how it jibes with the rest of our numbers? That would be some great information.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,710
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From: Central Jersey
OK. So I see the terminology they're using. It's confusing, but I see it. They're basically saying that Porsche made a running change to the bearings in the M97 engine (probably around Feb/March of 2005) and began using those "M97 bearings" in the M96 engine as well.
I'm not sure why LN would term it that way, instead of simply saying "the upgraded bearings," but whatever.
I'd still love to know your engine number, M//DREI...
I'm not sure why LN would term it that way, instead of simply saying "the upgraded bearings," but whatever.
I'd still love to know your engine number, M//DREI...
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,759
Likes: 0
From: The D
gordon, save yourself the headache and read LN Engineering's website regarding IMS. better yet, call them like I have done. here, i will spell it out for you, direct quotes from LN
"On a new or remanufactured engine built in or after MY06 utilizing the revised M97 IMS, the only "preventative" measure that can be taken short of our Retrofit kits is to remove the seal off the front of the IMS bearing, to allow for engine oil to lubricate the bearing."
"A separate ceramic hybrid bearing upgrade is available for the late-style MY06-08 M97 IMS as well."
"although depending on how late the build date was, there may be some MY05 vehicles with the updated M97 IMS, which is not serviceable, at least without teardown of the engine."
bottom line is the larger non-replaceable IMS is the updated M97 IMS, which is found typically in MY06+ M96 (3.6) and M97(3.8) motors
"On a new or remanufactured engine built in or after MY06 utilizing the revised M97 IMS, the only "preventative" measure that can be taken short of our Retrofit kits is to remove the seal off the front of the IMS bearing, to allow for engine oil to lubricate the bearing."
"A separate ceramic hybrid bearing upgrade is available for the late-style MY06-08 M97 IMS as well."
"although depending on how late the build date was, there may be some MY05 vehicles with the updated M97 IMS, which is not serviceable, at least without teardown of the engine."
bottom line is the larger non-replaceable IMS is the updated M97 IMS, which is found typically in MY06+ M96 (3.6) and M97(3.8) motors
I'd be interested to know if LN has an engine dyno they use to prove out their products.
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 117
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From: San Diego, CA
Did you happen to ask how much durability data they have collected on bearings with the seal removed? Also, if you remove the seal that faces the back of the block is there a path for oil to get to the bearing? I thought you would have to remove the opposite side. Is this not true? These bearings and others are designed to operate with durability using specific lubrication. If that lubrication was oil it seams Porsche would have tested and eliminated the seal.
I'd be interested to know if LN has an engine dyno they use to prove out their products.
I'd be interested to know if LN has an engine dyno they use to prove out their products.
Advanced
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
From: Montreal, Canada
agreed. I talked with my indy, it would be around $10k to do the engine tear down, $14k to have LN bore out the motor to a 3.8.
I have been doing a bit of research, and have yet to come across a first hand account of the larger m97 bearing failing. So in my mind, it is just as good as the LN retrofit. anyways, they ended up finding a wrapped pressure plate, so I had the clutch, rms replaced. Also as LN adviced, I removed on the seals on the bear to increase lubrication. So all in all, not a total wast of money
I have been doing a bit of research, and have yet to come across a first hand account of the larger m97 bearing failing. So in my mind, it is just as good as the LN retrofit. anyways, they ended up finding a wrapped pressure plate, so I had the clutch, rms replaced. Also as LN adviced, I removed on the seals on the bear to increase lubrication. So all in all, not a total wast of money
I'm curious to know more about your bearing when the seal was removed.
1. Did the seal show any signs of deterioration?
2. How much lubrication was left in the bearing; full, half or washed out?
3. Where you able to exam the ball bearings, cage, races for any signs of wear?
4. Any free play when you spun the bearing?
5. Your overall view on the condition of the bearing.
thanks
Rennlist Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,710
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From: Central Jersey
Wow! That's 2341 engine builds prior to what we thought was the first upgraded bearing M96 engine. Earlier threads suggested that the first M96 with upgraded bears was 69507475. I guess we need to rethink our assumptions...
Good on you for getting the stronger kit.
Good on you for getting the stronger kit.