jdjones2010

+1, as Always Bob DO knows what he's Talking About! This happened to me last year on another vehicle, it was 770 difference on the mileage until I caught it, then I had to go thru many channels just to get it corrected, it was a PIA! jmo

simsgw

As Bob says.

I am getting too damned old. This is so routine and has been for so many decades that my only reaction is surprise that anyone considering purchase of a new car doesn't know it already. Memory is nagging me about some state laws on this. More on that in a moment. Basically, any 'new' car is changing hands twice folks. Once from the factory to the dealer and again from the dealer's inventory to your own.

In some fields, expensive items are held in the manufacturer's ownership so that dealers can be recruited without requiring the large capital investment of buying their inventory from the factory. Light aircraft used to be sold that way, and the practice was called "floor planning" which always suggested to me that it was a term taken from car dealers who actually have a floor to display their inventory. (I suppose an aircraft dealer somewhere some time has displayed models indoors, but I never saw one.)

Since we have a term for not selling the car to the dealer when it is delivered, you would have to assume the usual practice is to sell it, to transfer ownership. Now that nagging memory. I seem to recall that some states wanted to more rigorously tax the inventory on dealers' lots, so they passed laws about registering those vehicles. That initiated the warranty clock, and the practice is common now, as Bob says. Maybe that vague memory is the origin of the practice and maybe not. But the practice is and essentially always has been routine. I don't know about using it to manipulate the manufacturer's or importer's incentive plan for dealers, but people are endlessly ingenious so it doesn't surprise me. It won't be a rampant practice, because the trade-off is the tax implication for the dealer.

We have warranties expressed in miles as well as months, and since for decades it was rare to hear of a car whose clock expired before the mileage limit was reached, you should expect that state laws (and attorneys general) won't get excited about the dealer starting the warranty clock shortly after the car is bought by them. Nor manufacturers, because traditionally a lot of the car's components had a lifetime that did start when the car (or the component) was built, not at some arbitrary future date when ownership transferred. Soft goods are notorious examples. If the registration was not done shortly after delivery to the dealer, then quite possibly that state has a law that requires the registration if a 'unit' remains in the dealer's possession more than X days. Auto sales are a high-cash-volume industry and they've had the eye of legislators for a century now as a source of tax revenue.

Don't expect a flood of consumerist sympathy on this issue, because the cars that do not get driven enough to expire their mileage first tend to be Ferraris, Porsches, and other cars bought by the class of people that irritate Ralph Nader and his ilk just by existing. You know, people who know how to pronounce Porsche and aren't even embarrassed to say it right.

Remember that most of our laws originated when buyers were expected to look out for their own interests. Since the date of warranty is readily available to buyers, I'd expect our older laws to be silent on the question. It certainly isn't fraudulent to register a car before the first sale to an end user, because it falls under a category of the Uniform Commercial Code called "standard practices in the trade" or something of that sort. [Aha! Just remembered another of those state laws on this topic. Dealers began to offer test drives in 'demonstrators' and some states wanted to tax them immediately as vehicles in commercial use, which usually is an ever higher rate than a consumer registration. That clearly is a commercial use, though we don't normally think of it that way. The hunger of tax agencies is not required to be logical. It just happens that in this case it is logical and our routine perception is not. Demonstrators are part of the sales equipment, just like the showroom. So you may well find laws still extant that say anything beyond X miles in the dealer's ownership requires that a registration be filed. I believe this is the origin of plates labeled 'dealer' or 'distr' or 'mfr' but I can't swear to it.]

Basically, unless you order from the factory direct, you're always buying a car that has been bought by someone else first: the dealer. If 'he' didn't drive it at all, or at least not much, then it isn't 'used' but you are still the second owner under the law even if you are the first consumer to own the car. Whether the state requires or permits the dealer to register that car, and whether that starts the warranty clock running is a separate issue. Separate, and probably different in most states unless we've had federal law that preempts on the subject. And in countries not the United States, you may be paying taxes and fees not even contemplated in U.S. courts, but of course you will be chuckling about this whole thread before now.

Annoying if you never heard about all this, but not fraud. Now you have heard about it. Aren't you glad you visit the forums? Don't you wish all your friends did?

Seriously, folks. It ain't cheating just because you were out of the room (or not out of the womb) when they passed the rules, and you haven't bothered to ask for a crib sheet since joining the game. Take a night class. Read a book. Or... well, read the forums I guess.

Gary

dadbeh

"An unsuspecting customer buys a new car from the dealer. The dealer, unbeknownst to the customer, has reported the car "sold" at an earlier date to PCNA to inflate sales figures and has "punched" the warrantee. So the 4 year/50K mile warrantee starts running once the warrantee is punched. There is no disclosure from the dealer as to this practice and nothing is written on the customer invoice to advise the customer as to the practice. "


True, true. This is what happened to me. I bought a porsche with 0 miles, found out later I only had 3 years of warranty! Needless to say I am not going back to that dealer again!

dadbeh

Dangelus

Purchased new 997 in 12/2008 only to find out Chicago-based dealer started the warrenty 22-months earlier. Escalated issue last week to PCNA; still waiting for initial follow-up discussion. This dealer practice tarnishes the Porsche brand!

ChrisF

I'm sure there was a lot of this back at the end of '09 when Porsche was offering $10k trunk money to clear overstocked lots. My car was one of those and the dealer shows as owner #1 on my carfax. No idea if the real first owner knew.

One of the first things I ask for with ever car I buy is the in-service date (yes, even on new ones). I then confirm it on the sales paperwork. I think it's part of due diligence since most car salesmen are scum.

Thegman

It sounds like this "non-disclosure" issue is more widespread than even I thought it was. Talk to your friends and fellow PCA members and ask them to check their "in service dates" and compare it to their purchase date. Unethical dealers need to be put out of business, or fined or both.

Alan C.

Good luck with you conversation with PCNA. I don't believe they control the terms under which a dealer sells a car to an individual.

Have you tried getting your zone rep in the mix? He/she may be able to help through the back door.

Thegman

We are trying to get some assistance from PCA in an effort to identify other victims. This thing is really something that has to go federal because of all the jurisdictions. Think of the impact on sales when and if the Wall Street Journal someday reports that PCNA and or Porsche AG has been involved in a fraud scheme and the dealer network is under investigation for warrantee fraud. I hope that day comes sooner rather than later! All they had to do was be honest with their customers and disclose the true sale date and warrantee start dates. It's all about GREED.

Bob Rouleau

Thegman,

Has the shorter warranty harmed you in any way? I'd understand your pain if you had a failure and discovered that your car was out of the warranty period. It can also have a negative effect if you resell the car with what you think is, say, a years warranty left and the new owner has a failure only to discover the car is no longer covered.

Dealers are often pressured to take cars by the District Sales Manager who wants to make his bonus .. often used as leverage to get the dealer a hot selling model which may be in short supply. Sort of like "if you take these three Boxster Base cars which we have loaded up with so many options they are more expensive than an S and I'll give you another Turbo S".

As I said a reputable dealer will compensate with goodwill repair, a discount or even an extended warranty.

Some will take the chance that the car goes past the warranty period (the one you think you had) without a failure. Given that the cars are pretty reliable this is a dishonest but decent gamble on his part.

I don't know how PCNA will react to your problem. The dealer may have been pressured into taking the car by them after all. On the other hand if the failure to disclose the shorter warranty costs you money, I'd imagine you would have recourse against the dealer who in turn might assist in a deal with PCNA.

I hope it works out for you!

mongrelcat

Not in the market at the moment but if I was I'd certainly use this to my advantage. Knowing which cars on the lot are already "on the clock" could be pretty valuable as I'd imagine there's more incentive for a dealer to move that unit than one that hasn't been sitting so long.

Tarek307

If people paid sticker price for cars & didn't haggle & squeeze every penny out of dealerships then none of this would happen!

Mark Harris

My company produces a quality product that rarely fails. This doesn't grant me permission to gamble on the most important aspect of my business, my customer.

Dishonest is dishonest.

I get the big picture and understand that people up to and including Matthias Müller are turning a blind eye to this practice.

I guess this is just another ugly peek behind the curtain that I will get over and move on. Knowledge is power.

fast1

I have come across a few Porsches that were punched because they were used by the dealer as a demo. In each case however the dealer openly revealed this information on its inventory web sites. Not disclosing a car with a less than full warranty may not be illegal but it sure as hell is unethical. Since I always custom order my cars, it was never an issue for me but I'll be sure to validate the warranty duration should I ever purchase a car from the dealer's inventory.

autopc

I don't have a issue with a dealer who punches a car and openly reveals it. Not telling a buyer is fraud. I would want what I paid for even if I do not use it. People who do not care if dealers do this is one of the reasons unethical dealers continue to do this. The unethical dealers know a certain percentage of buyers will just roll over if they are caught.

Personally I would not have my car serviced or do any business with a dealer who is caught doing this to someone. What else would they lie about? How can you trust them about anything?

Best of luck to the OP in finding resolution.

jhbrennan

If the "new" car warranty is 4/50,000 how can a dealer represent that car being sold is "new" if the warranty is something less?