996 vs 997
12-12-2011, 07:04 PM
#61
Drifting
Actually on a car forum it's perfectly ok to throw out whatever insecurities you have about your car. In fact such things are endearing traits in the world of moldy fig Porsche ludites for whom every new 911 must look, drive, sound, and perform exactly like the previous model to be considered "real".
Sure you might look funny at the fig get togethers when you realize that you have the only water-cooled car in the parking lot, but you just need to get them to understand that your car is the "high point" (shouldn't you really refer to it as the "high water" mark?) in all of 911 figdom. They might even walk outside to look, but they will quickly avert their eyes when they see that your example doesn't even have a GT3 badge on the back that would indicate a Metzger assocation with their real Porsche's. Once they see you car shares the same basic engine with a Boxster (gasp) they will quickly move back indoors and discuss why Porsche should have brough back aircooling for the 991 and ask themselves if lead weights bolted to the front bumpers would have been a preferable solution to improving stability rather than a longer wheelbase.
Fortunately it's not against the forum rules for me to laugh at this type of thing.
Carry on.
Sure you might look funny at the fig get togethers when you realize that you have the only water-cooled car in the parking lot, but you just need to get them to understand that your car is the "high point" (shouldn't you really refer to it as the "high water" mark?) in all of 911 figdom. They might even walk outside to look, but they will quickly avert their eyes when they see that your example doesn't even have a GT3 badge on the back that would indicate a Metzger assocation with their real Porsche's. Once they see you car shares the same basic engine with a Boxster (gasp) they will quickly move back indoors and discuss why Porsche should have brough back aircooling for the 991 and ask themselves if lead weights bolted to the front bumpers would have been a preferable solution to improving stability rather than a longer wheelbase.
Fortunately it's not against the forum rules for me to laugh at this type of thing.
Carry on.
Yes, Ray I think it actually is in the 993 forum.
Great post BTW.
12-12-2011, 08:38 PM
#62
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I recently bought an '07, partially because consumer reports has an excellent repair history for that year, better than '06 or '08 or '09. Not that they know much about our cars, but the averages over large numbers has to mean something.
12-13-2011, 10:23 AM
#63
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consistent random misfires are very difficult to trace. they went over whole chain trying to avoid taking engine down, even tried different DME as they had a spare one in the shop. but it was not MAF, not plugs, coils, DME - it was a damaged valve lifter. so total price tag went up big time. it is what it is.
12-13-2011, 11:36 AM
#64
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I agree it was a great post. I hope he saved it so he can re-post it when it's actually appropriate and relevant to the point made by the person he directs it at
I drove a 993, and like all the Porsches I drove prior to it, had no interest in owning. The ride, the noise, the handling, the joke of an air-con...not my cup of tea. The 996 held promise, but it wasn't until the 997 that Porsche made a car which I would want to drive not only on weekends for a fun romp, but every day including the rainy ones, and the ones when I'm dead tired from dealing with cranky patients all day, and I ache from head to foot. So I'm quite obviously not a luddite who wishes Porsche would return to the air-cooled generation. What I do wish is that Porsche make improvements where they count, and ponder very carefully any styling changes made to visually differentiate a new model from the penultimate. It seems that with the exception of the center console purloined from the Panamera, Porsche has done a great job with the 991 in those regards.
Porsche must also be praised for its ability to thoroughly modernize the 911 mechanically and stylistically while retaining its iconic look. It isn't the luddite in me who appreciates that, it's the pragmatist. It's one of the reasons Porsches hold their resale value so well. Porsches don't get old, they become vintage.
I had two 97-03 BMW 7-series and eagerly anticipated the new model. When I saw it I wanted to puke. It looked like a cockroach on 4 wheels...and then there was that ridiculous I-Drive contraption. They lost me as a customer (and a lot of others too). I then bought a new Mercedes E-Class (saw it in "Men In Black II" and was blown away). Again I anticipated the updated model in 2010, and again I was sickened by the soul-less styling.
Sure the Panamera looks like a parody, and the very existence of the Cayenne still baffles me, but at least Porsche is taking the right road w.r.t. the 911. Thank God Porsche isn't listening to the handful of morons who would like them to make it look more like an Audi R8, just so they can assuage their low self-esteem cat-calling the air-cooled fans. Of which, I reiterate, I am NOT one.
I drove a 993, and like all the Porsches I drove prior to it, had no interest in owning. The ride, the noise, the handling, the joke of an air-con...not my cup of tea. The 996 held promise, but it wasn't until the 997 that Porsche made a car which I would want to drive not only on weekends for a fun romp, but every day including the rainy ones, and the ones when I'm dead tired from dealing with cranky patients all day, and I ache from head to foot. So I'm quite obviously not a luddite who wishes Porsche would return to the air-cooled generation. What I do wish is that Porsche make improvements where they count, and ponder very carefully any styling changes made to visually differentiate a new model from the penultimate. It seems that with the exception of the center console purloined from the Panamera, Porsche has done a great job with the 991 in those regards.
Porsche must also be praised for its ability to thoroughly modernize the 911 mechanically and stylistically while retaining its iconic look. It isn't the luddite in me who appreciates that, it's the pragmatist. It's one of the reasons Porsches hold their resale value so well. Porsches don't get old, they become vintage.
I had two 97-03 BMW 7-series and eagerly anticipated the new model. When I saw it I wanted to puke. It looked like a cockroach on 4 wheels...and then there was that ridiculous I-Drive contraption. They lost me as a customer (and a lot of others too). I then bought a new Mercedes E-Class (saw it in "Men In Black II" and was blown away). Again I anticipated the updated model in 2010, and again I was sickened by the soul-less styling.
Sure the Panamera looks like a parody, and the very existence of the Cayenne still baffles me, but at least Porsche is taking the right road w.r.t. the 911. Thank God Porsche isn't listening to the handful of morons who would like them to make it look more like an Audi R8, just so they can assuage their low self-esteem cat-calling the air-cooled fans. Of which, I reiterate, I am NOT one.
12-13-2011, 12:22 PM
#65
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As I have read thru all the posts on this subject of 996 vs 997, I wonder if anyone takes Excellence and if they really read the highly detailed tech articals written late this year on the RMS, which was first in the series, then the IMS whch covered I believe 2 issues and then the KN engineering created bearing and then the IMS sensor that one can add to detect when thier IMS is about to go. Bruce Anderson covers this every year when he covers the models being discussed here in his pricing guide wioth his recommendations on "which to buy".
The water cooled varieties starting in 99 thru 08 when they completely redesigned the engine have their own particular issues as most Porsche models have in the past with the new DFI engines "promising" to be the first without an "achilles heel". Bruce Anderson advises people to steer clear of the early models and then cautions those that buy the post 2002 models saying that he wouldn't buy one unless it's had the new RMS installed. There were case porosity issues in the very early ones, there was a campaign by Porsche to save the engines by replacing the cylinder sleeves in them and then there were the "D" chunk failures when those sleeves gave way and moved. Then there was the RMS issue that wasn't just about the seal - it was the position of the crank shaft and if it moved or was out past a certain point Porsche just replaced the engine. They developed a special to check it; then they found that the tool was trapping air between it and the crank and showing them to be out past the "mark" when they really weren't. When the put the hole in the tool to let the air out ....well no telling how much that saved them. Then you have the IMS issue with the double row bearing and case issues. It's not only the bearing but the case reinforcement around the bearing, which changed somewhere along the line after 2002, something like that. Man the M96 engine has had so many issues that if one isn't a bit scared it's because they haven't read much about them from a technical standpoint.
This year earlier in the summer they came out with the articals on the RMS and IMS and new aftermarket bearing and the aftermarket IMS bearing sensor. I would highly recommend anyone doing a lot of research with Excellence before buying any Porsche with an M96 engine. The single row bearing that was created last and finally was put in the cars from a certain date forward. Early on there was something I read about not knowing whether they used the double row bearing or the single row bearing in certain models. Whew - man there is a lot to be considered when looking into buying a 996 especially or a 997.1 - supposedly there haven't been any failures since the single row bearing was installed but I wouldn't bet the ranch cause none of those figures or stats are ever given out by Porsche. EVER!
Even if you buy a 997.1 of say a 2006 + variety there are many factors to be considered. Mileage being a big part of it, whether they've been sitting as Gary mentions - a BIG factor. Folks that think keeping the miles down is the best way to avoid expensive problems are wrong. Seals dry out - like the RMS, not good for keeping a seal and preventing it from leaking. Driving them in a non spirited manner - also not good. They need to be driven as they were designed to be driven - not as a shopping car for the wifey in other words. Also as Gary mentions. These cars still have the same guide material as they did in the 993 and the same port in the head for cold starts.
One interjection - I know a guy Steve Wiener - you can check archival entries on him related to the 993 CEL/carbon build up/SAI issue - he's a long time Porsche shop owner and mechanic - replaced a lot of valve guides. He says that with all he knows about the M96 he can't recommend them. Further says that the GT3 is a great engine built on a different case and is a real raceing tried and true engine and as he says - "it's the real deal". What does that mean - well you have to know more than I do to reallly understand.
Short of it is that unless you are really knowledgeable and have a good ppi done on an M96 you can get into trouble or at least get upside down really quickly. Now like they say these issues don't effect all the cars but to buy a pre 2002 M96 well that would take some "big ones" in my book and yet I've known some that have gone a long way. Problem is that when you get high miles on em they aren't worth putting another engine in if they fail. Better have a nice extended warranty to be safe. I surely would - actually all these issues (and I've left so much out from the tech articals) are what have made me just want to wait till I can afford the 997.2. Although I'm sure, well relatively sure, that a nice 2008 would be a good car. But for me I'll just save another year for the DFI with no IMS. The seal issues I believe are solved now - finally. Hopefully nothing else rears it's head as I wait for the right price for the one I'm looking for in the future.
All I'm really saying is - know your 911s - read, read and read some more so you can be as educated as possible. That's always been and most likely will continue to be the best advice you can have for these expensive super cars and especially Porsche, the cars we all love!
The water cooled varieties starting in 99 thru 08 when they completely redesigned the engine have their own particular issues as most Porsche models have in the past with the new DFI engines "promising" to be the first without an "achilles heel". Bruce Anderson advises people to steer clear of the early models and then cautions those that buy the post 2002 models saying that he wouldn't buy one unless it's had the new RMS installed. There were case porosity issues in the very early ones, there was a campaign by Porsche to save the engines by replacing the cylinder sleeves in them and then there were the "D" chunk failures when those sleeves gave way and moved. Then there was the RMS issue that wasn't just about the seal - it was the position of the crank shaft and if it moved or was out past a certain point Porsche just replaced the engine. They developed a special to check it; then they found that the tool was trapping air between it and the crank and showing them to be out past the "mark" when they really weren't. When the put the hole in the tool to let the air out ....well no telling how much that saved them. Then you have the IMS issue with the double row bearing and case issues. It's not only the bearing but the case reinforcement around the bearing, which changed somewhere along the line after 2002, something like that. Man the M96 engine has had so many issues that if one isn't a bit scared it's because they haven't read much about them from a technical standpoint.
This year earlier in the summer they came out with the articals on the RMS and IMS and new aftermarket bearing and the aftermarket IMS bearing sensor. I would highly recommend anyone doing a lot of research with Excellence before buying any Porsche with an M96 engine. The single row bearing that was created last and finally was put in the cars from a certain date forward. Early on there was something I read about not knowing whether they used the double row bearing or the single row bearing in certain models. Whew - man there is a lot to be considered when looking into buying a 996 especially or a 997.1 - supposedly there haven't been any failures since the single row bearing was installed but I wouldn't bet the ranch cause none of those figures or stats are ever given out by Porsche. EVER!
Even if you buy a 997.1 of say a 2006 + variety there are many factors to be considered. Mileage being a big part of it, whether they've been sitting as Gary mentions - a BIG factor. Folks that think keeping the miles down is the best way to avoid expensive problems are wrong. Seals dry out - like the RMS, not good for keeping a seal and preventing it from leaking. Driving them in a non spirited manner - also not good. They need to be driven as they were designed to be driven - not as a shopping car for the wifey in other words. Also as Gary mentions. These cars still have the same guide material as they did in the 993 and the same port in the head for cold starts.
One interjection - I know a guy Steve Wiener - you can check archival entries on him related to the 993 CEL/carbon build up/SAI issue - he's a long time Porsche shop owner and mechanic - replaced a lot of valve guides. He says that with all he knows about the M96 he can't recommend them. Further says that the GT3 is a great engine built on a different case and is a real raceing tried and true engine and as he says - "it's the real deal". What does that mean - well you have to know more than I do to reallly understand.
Short of it is that unless you are really knowledgeable and have a good ppi done on an M96 you can get into trouble or at least get upside down really quickly. Now like they say these issues don't effect all the cars but to buy a pre 2002 M96 well that would take some "big ones" in my book and yet I've known some that have gone a long way. Problem is that when you get high miles on em they aren't worth putting another engine in if they fail. Better have a nice extended warranty to be safe. I surely would - actually all these issues (and I've left so much out from the tech articals) are what have made me just want to wait till I can afford the 997.2. Although I'm sure, well relatively sure, that a nice 2008 would be a good car. But for me I'll just save another year for the DFI with no IMS. The seal issues I believe are solved now - finally. Hopefully nothing else rears it's head as I wait for the right price for the one I'm looking for in the future.
All I'm really saying is - know your 911s - read, read and read some more so you can be as educated as possible. That's always been and most likely will continue to be the best advice you can have for these expensive super cars and especially Porsche, the cars we all love!
12-27-2011, 05:03 AM
#66
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Ugly!?!? WOW, this is the dumbest thing I have read on RL in a while, and that is saying something.
If you said the GT-R is ugly that’s one thing, but for a 997 owner, let alone a Porsche enthusiast, to say the 996 is “ugly” is ridiculous. You certainly may prefer the 997 over the 996 but they are far too similar to say that one is ugly and the other a gem.
Considering most people(general public) could not tell the difference between a 996 and 997 parked next to each other, what does your comment say about your 997?
If you said the GT-R is ugly that’s one thing, but for a 997 owner, let alone a Porsche enthusiast, to say the 996 is “ugly” is ridiculous. You certainly may prefer the 997 over the 996 but they are far too similar to say that one is ugly and the other a gem.
Considering most people(general public) could not tell the difference between a 996 and 997 parked next to each other, what does your comment say about your 997?
12-27-2011, 11:13 AM
#67
I do think the general public can tell the difference between 996 and 997 mostly just because of the "eyes" (headlamps). Although I've noticed most people have trouble distinguishing 964 vs 993 etc.
I don't think that most people would say that the 996 is ugly (and I agree- I would take 996 over a BMW for example) but I would go for a 997 over a 996 based on a pure beauty contest.
However I wouldn't make your choice based on beauty alone. Based on reliability etc I'd go for 997 as well if you can afford it. The cost step isn't that much.
it's been repeated many times but "you should buy the newest 911 you can afford". I'll add the caveat of "when buying a driver". If you want a part of history or want a project car that's a different story.
I don't think that most people would say that the 996 is ugly (and I agree- I would take 996 over a BMW for example) but I would go for a 997 over a 996 based on a pure beauty contest.
However I wouldn't make your choice based on beauty alone. Based on reliability etc I'd go for 997 as well if you can afford it. The cost step isn't that much.
it's been repeated many times but "you should buy the newest 911 you can afford". I'll add the caveat of "when buying a driver". If you want a part of history or want a project car that's a different story.
06-10-2017, 02:54 AM
#68
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^^if i had a 996, i'd do a 997 nose update in a minute.
1. What M96 engine years should be avoided?
2. What early 997's can you do the ims? it's partway through the 2005 or 2006 run, right? Isn't it once you get past the early engines you have to do a full teardown to install a proper ims?
3. if so, would (refreshing an engine completely defeat the purpose, and it's just to jump forward to late 997 or 991?
1. What M96 engine years should be avoided?
2. What early 997's can you do the ims? it's partway through the 2005 or 2006 run, right? Isn't it once you get past the early engines you have to do a full teardown to install a proper ims?
3. if so, would (refreshing an engine completely defeat the purpose, and it's just to jump forward to late 997 or 991?
06-10-2017, 09:33 AM
#69
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Ugly!?!? WOW, this is the dumbest thing I have read on RL in a while, and that is saying something.
If you said the GT-R is ugly that’s one thing, but for a 997 owner, let alone a Porsche enthusiast, to say the 996 is “ugly” is ridiculous. You certainly may prefer the 997 over the 996 but they are far too similar to say that one is ugly and the other a gem.
Considering most people(general public) could not tell the difference between a 996 and 997 parked next to each other, what does your comment say about your 997?
If you said the GT-R is ugly that’s one thing, but for a 997 owner, let alone a Porsche enthusiast, to say the 996 is “ugly” is ridiculous. You certainly may prefer the 997 over the 996 but they are far too similar to say that one is ugly and the other a gem.
Considering most people(general public) could not tell the difference between a 996 and 997 parked next to each other, what does your comment say about your 997?
I have learned valuable lessons in exotics and sports cars throughout the years that apply whole heartedly to the NA 996 series. Purchasing the cheapest just to have the emblem usually ends up very expensive and/or very disappointing. There is a reasons they are the cheapest and perhaps even over valued at that because people not knowing better pay for the emblem.
That said, I do like the 996 TTs and put up to about 88,000 on my 04 tt cab between 04 and 08.
06-14-2017, 04:01 PM
#70
Instructor
Cool-- though, since the OP's friend was looking to make a decision back in December of 2011, I would think that die has been cast by this point 
Just giving you folks a hard time, but this is quite an old post . . . KH
Just giving you folks a hard time, but this is quite an old post . . . KH
06-16-2017, 03:53 AM
#71
I'm glad this post is still alive and I find it very informative and useful especially for the folks who are in the market for a 911. Please keep this post rollin'.
06-16-2017, 11:18 PM
#72
Nordschleife Master
All the talk about the 996 looks likes/dislikes is just fluff. The 997 is a great gen, but it is one more step in the 911 'refinement' and loses some the 996 has. The 996 is more direct, closer to the original 911 architecture. The direction is linear, more direct. It is smaller and that is a good thing.
Yeah, I know I am in the minority. The majority does not care for the 911 characteristics, always looking for performance - easy to drive, stable and stuff like it.
Yeah, I know I am in the minority. The majority does not care for the 911 characteristics, always looking for performance - easy to drive, stable and stuff like it.
Last edited by ADias; 06-17-2017 at 01:03 AM.
06-17-2017, 12:14 AM
#73
My main concern is reliability, I don't want to always be wrenching or spend most of the time in the shop blowing my money away. I want to be able to drive it everyday and I know they are not reliable like a Toyota or Honda but at least be able to spend most of the time with it on the road and not in the shop.
06-18-2017, 05:44 PM
#74
My main concern is reliability, I don't want to always be wrenching or spend most of the time in the shop blowing my money away. I want to be able to drive it everyday and I know they are not reliable like a Toyota or Honda but at least be able to spend most of the time with it on the road and not in the shop.
Porsches, on the other hand, are "less reliable" because they are a thrill to drive, and they can be driven at the edge of performance and come away undamaged, for the most part. Yes I use my Toyota for work duties but the Porsche is the car I will drive daily when I retire.
Last edited by ocgarza; 06-19-2017 at 07:29 PM.
06-18-2017, 06:25 PM
#75
Rocky Mountain High
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Reliabile, inexpensive, fast.
You only get to pick two.
You only get to pick two.