996 vs 997
12-10-2011, 07:04 PM
#46
Nordschleife Master
several local mechanics and people on the thread i started here. any motor can be repaired but, say, to order a new m96 giving away old core with subsequent install price is apparently cheaper than to open up old one and try to fix it.
more than that - i actually spoke with my mechanic a lot of what options he can offer as i keep beating my car on a track, and he is under opinion that any of modern 996/997 street cars should be treated as disposables because as they get used up they accumulate such list of issues that total 'proper' repair price get astronomical and you have to replace half car to keep it working - axles, bearings, gearbox, steering - all has its limit and when it`s reached it has to be carefully assessed what to do next, financially.
as of motors - he does not open any m96/m97 if it does not crank, he says it is counterproductive price wise. a guy i know had a m97 in his car that developed a tendency for random misfires - and it happened to be in the end a problematic valve - so total bill came to $6K to drop off and put back engine plus 24 hours of labor, $120 per hour. that`s just a valve replacement, so what will it look like if you need to split a case and take it all apart? 80 hours? more? and how much re-anufactured and even new m96 costs?
PS. only point i wanted to make - anybody who buys an old 996 car in $2xK - $3xK price range with no warranty should be aware that it is not a honda accord with a motor that can go 1mln miles without a sneeze. and new m96 motor will cost $15K-$20K together with install labor.
more than that - i actually spoke with my mechanic a lot of what options he can offer as i keep beating my car on a track, and he is under opinion that any of modern 996/997 street cars should be treated as disposables because as they get used up they accumulate such list of issues that total 'proper' repair price get astronomical and you have to replace half car to keep it working - axles, bearings, gearbox, steering - all has its limit and when it`s reached it has to be carefully assessed what to do next, financially.
as of motors - he does not open any m96/m97 if it does not crank, he says it is counterproductive price wise. a guy i know had a m97 in his car that developed a tendency for random misfires - and it happened to be in the end a problematic valve - so total bill came to $6K to drop off and put back engine plus 24 hours of labor, $120 per hour. that`s just a valve replacement, so what will it look like if you need to split a case and take it all apart? 80 hours? more? and how much re-anufactured and even new m96 costs?
PS. only point i wanted to make - anybody who buys an old 996 car in $2xK - $3xK price range with no warranty should be aware that it is not a honda accord with a motor that can go 1mln miles without a sneeze. and new m96 motor will cost $15K-$20K together with install labor.
Your friend's car "that developed a tendency for random misfires - and it happened to be in the end a problematic valve" was that really the case? I find these days that many mechanics are not able to diagnose a problem and carry on a quasi-random trial and error approach, replacing many things which do not need replacing, end up fixing the issue, for a price. There are still excellent mechanics with a head over their shoulders who know how to diagnose problems and minimize costs. If a mechanic does not have experience and strictly follow the error code book... oh well.
12-11-2011, 07:00 PM
#47
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As to the 991 looking better, I'm glad you added the "Imho" because the 991 looks more like a 2-door Panamera than a 911.
12-12-2011, 03:36 AM
#49
Pro
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 703
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That they "made so many of them" is completely irrelevant to considering the 997.1 the high-point of the water-pumpers. It's purely a styling thing. The 996 has those bizarre headlights and a dash that looks like is was designed by 3 blind guys who never met each other. The 997.2 has taillights that don't follow any of the rear lines and look like they belong on another car.
As to the 991 looking better, I'm glad you added the "Imho" because the 991 looks more like a 2-door Panamera than a 911.
As to the 991 looking better, I'm glad you added the "Imho" because the 991 looks more like a 2-door Panamera than a 911.
put an R8 next to a 997 and the 997 will look completely outclassed/dated. the 996/7 are more alike than they are diff. the 991 owns. the king is dead, long live...
12-12-2011, 05:18 AM
#50
12-12-2011, 08:11 AM
#51
Skunk Whisperer
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Winston Salem, NC/Ararat, VA
Posts: 5,236
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
Ugly!?!? WOW, this is the dumbest thing I have read on RL in a while, and that is saying something.
If you said the GT-R is ugly that’s one thing, but for a 997 owner, let alone a Porsche enthusiast, to say the 996 is “ugly” is ridiculous. You certainly may prefer the 997 over the 996 but they are far too similar to say that one is ugly and the other a gem.
Considering most people(general public) could not tell the difference between a 996 and 997 parked next to each other, what does your comment say about your 997?
If you said the GT-R is ugly that’s one thing, but for a 997 owner, let alone a Porsche enthusiast, to say the 996 is “ugly” is ridiculous. You certainly may prefer the 997 over the 996 but they are far too similar to say that one is ugly and the other a gem.
Considering most people(general public) could not tell the difference between a 996 and 997 parked next to each other, what does your comment say about your 997?
And yes, the GT-R is one ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly vehicle. Not even a black, red and gold badge would help it.
Porsche, there is no substitute.
12-12-2011, 11:05 AM
#52
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
put an R8 next to a 997 and the 997 will look completely outclassed/dated.
12-12-2011, 12:21 PM
#53
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The issue with the 991 is simply that it continues to evolve the 911 from sports-car to sporty luxury car. That may be what Porsche's research tells them will sell best, and they may well be correct. But if one considers only the water-cooled generations and only from a styling standpoint, I feel confident that the 997.1 will be seen as the pinnacle...a perfect blend of new and iconically classic, eschewing the step-too-far styling excesses of the 996, 997.2 and now 991.
Cognitive dissonance has bitten you hard bud.
12-12-2011, 03:05 PM
#54
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
12-12-2011, 03:31 PM
#55
Pro
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 703
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
True, but once again irrelevant to the point of the 997 being someday considered the high water mark of the water-cooled-911 ilk. Bud.
IYH...and bizarrely erroneous...O. Most people would say, put an R8 next to a 997 and it will look like an Audi next to a Porsche. BTW the 991 doesn't look that much different from a 997, certainly not anywhere in the styling realm of an R8 or any other brand. It's still instantly recognizable as a Porsche 911. The issue with the 991 is simply that it continues to evolve the 911 from sports-car to sporty luxury car. That may be what Porsche's research tells them will sell best, and they may well be correct. But if one considers only the water-cooled generations and only from a styling standpoint, I feel confident that the 997.1 will be seen as the pinnacle...a perfect blend of new and iconically classic, eschewing the step-too-far styling excesses of the 996, 997.2 and now 991.
IYH...and bizarrely erroneous...O. Most people would say, put an R8 next to a 997 and it will look like an Audi next to a Porsche. BTW the 991 doesn't look that much different from a 997, certainly not anywhere in the styling realm of an R8 or any other brand. It's still instantly recognizable as a Porsche 911. The issue with the 991 is simply that it continues to evolve the 911 from sports-car to sporty luxury car. That may be what Porsche's research tells them will sell best, and they may well be correct. But if one considers only the water-cooled generations and only from a styling standpoint, I feel confident that the 997.1 will be seen as the pinnacle...a perfect blend of new and iconically classic, eschewing the step-too-far styling excesses of the 996, 997.2 and now 991.
the 997.2 engine to 991 remains largely the same. the weight is down. it sits lower and wider in true sports car form. the internals have a nice cocoon like design which envelops you. you still have the manual option while the PDK has been further enhanced.
the 997.1 is hardly a pinnacle of anything. in fact, it's porsche's band aid to what is the clean sheet 991 design. the 996 and 997 are more alike than anything so if one is saying the 996 is dog ugly, well, it's only skin deep. i don't find any 911 to be anywhere near the vicinity of ugly btw.
fact is, the 991's going to be around for as long as the 996/7 was if not longer - embrace it, enjoy it because VW's bet is that all you 997 lovers are going to want to upgrade to one.
coming from a 997 owner, i'm looking forward to the gt variants. it's going to be top class.
12-12-2011, 04:30 PM
#56
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Sure you might look funny at the fig get togethers when you realize that you have the only water-cooled car in the parking lot, but you just need to get them to understand that your car is the "high point" (shouldn't you really refer to it as the "high water" mark?) in all of 911 figdom. They might even walk outside to look, but they will quickly avert their eyes when they see that your example doesn't even have a GT3 badge on the back that would indicate a Metzger assocation with their real Porsche's. Once they see you car shares the same basic engine with a Boxster (gasp) they will quickly move back indoors and discuss why Porsche should have brough back aircooling for the 991 and ask themselves if lead weights bolted to the front bumpers would have been a preferable solution to improving stability rather than a longer wheelbase.
Fortunately it's not against the forum rules for me to laugh at this type of thing.
Carry on.
12-12-2011, 04:44 PM
#57
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I merely expressed an opinion that the 997.1 styling will go down in history as the most esthetically-pleasing of the water-cooled models. Since that history has yet to be written, only a fool--or two
--would attempt to refute my assertion.
--would attempt to refute my assertion.
12-12-2011, 05:06 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: West Los Angeles & Truckee, CA
Posts: 3,898
Received 795 Likes
on
545 Posts
I dont find the 996 or the 991 ugly either. I may actually prefer the 991 to the 997 - although I will reserve judgement until i see it live. Didnt make the LA show as i was out of town. But when I showed my wife the 991 (Christophorus) she said, its looks almost the same. So the changes are hardly ground breaking. Thats the whole point of the 911. The new doesnt make the old look bad or obsolete.
12-12-2011, 05:08 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: West Los Angeles & Truckee, CA
Posts: 3,898
Received 795 Likes
on
545 Posts
With all due respect, you sound like a broken record or just like those guys from the 993 clan casting aspersion, accusing Porsche of going luxo barge from air to water in the infamous 993 to 6 migration.
the 997.2 engine to 991 remains largely the same. the weight is down. it sits lower and wider in true sports car form. the internals have a nice cocoon like design which envelops you. you still have the manual option while the PDK has been further enhanced.
the 997.1 is hardly a pinnacle of anything. in fact, it's porsche's band aid to what is the clean sheet 991 design. the 996 and 997 are more alike than anything so if one is saying the 996 is dog ugly, well, it's only skin deep. i don't find any 911 to be anywhere near the vicinity of ugly btw.
fact is, the 991's going to be around for as long as the 996/7 was if not longer - embrace it, enjoy it because VW's bet is that all you 997 lovers are going to want to upgrade to one.
coming from a 997 owner, i'm looking forward to the gt variants. it's going to be top class.
the 997.2 engine to 991 remains largely the same. the weight is down. it sits lower and wider in true sports car form. the internals have a nice cocoon like design which envelops you. you still have the manual option while the PDK has been further enhanced.
the 997.1 is hardly a pinnacle of anything. in fact, it's porsche's band aid to what is the clean sheet 991 design. the 996 and 997 are more alike than anything so if one is saying the 996 is dog ugly, well, it's only skin deep. i don't find any 911 to be anywhere near the vicinity of ugly btw.
fact is, the 991's going to be around for as long as the 996/7 was if not longer - embrace it, enjoy it because VW's bet is that all you 997 lovers are going to want to upgrade to one.
coming from a 997 owner, i'm looking forward to the gt variants. it's going to be top class.
12-12-2011, 05:33 PM
#60
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually, the 991 taillights are much better integrated esthetically with the car's rear lines than the 997.2. At least as well as the 997.1 in fact. The only thing I see that I don't like about the 991 is the interior center console. It's not that it's bad looking, it just seems busier and more opulent than one would expect in a true sports car. Not a big deal, but then as we all know, it's the little details that matter most.
