Shake or Wheel Balance Issue
#16
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[...]I call BS on the half shaft being out of spec too. That just doesn't add up. I was skeptical on that repair. I also know that the rear tire that is on the axle that the half shaft is located is giving a 29 pound road force reading which is way beyond what Porsche calls for [...] Could that way out of round rear tire fool the tech into thinking the half shaft was out of balance as the car was run on the rack in free air?
[...]
The wheel does shake side to side. It's the typical shake when you have an out of balance front tire. A very common shake to me since I've experienced this in most cars I've owned until I would replace tires and/or have them rebalanced by a competant tech.
I agree. A full alignment must be done on this car. Too much goofing around has been done on it (especially with the half shaft replacement) to know for sure if the alignment settings are still intact.
I feel that there are several issues at play here with this car. The one rear tire at 29 pounds of road force is definitely playing havoc. The half shaft replacement repair seems suspicious in suggesting the tech missed diagnosed that. The shaking at idle is making me nervous as well...
The wheel does shake side to side. It's the typical shake when you have an out of balance front tire. A very common shake to me since I've experienced this in most cars I've owned until I would replace tires and/or have them rebalanced by a competant tech.
I agree. A full alignment must be done on this car. Too much goofing around has been done on it (especially with the half shaft replacement) to know for sure if the alignment settings are still intact.
I feel that there are several issues at play here with this car. The one rear tire at 29 pounds of road force is definitely playing havoc. The half shaft replacement repair seems suspicious in suggesting the tech missed diagnosed that. The shaking at idle is making me nervous as well...
Again, a huge thank you to all that have responded to this thread. Thanks for letting my type all this crap out too. It's almost like therapy to discuss the issues since the car has been nothing but issues since day one. I'm still wondering if the selling dealership (a large, well known dealership) knew about this car...
The change of wheels before purchase could excuse that problem also (whatever it may turn out to be) so we don't have to assume malignity on the part of the dealer. How much have you talked to that selling dealer about this?
Unless one of these approaches turns up answers to both problems soon, I think you need to pursue the return of this car. Either by persuading the dealer to take it back as good will, or failing that, talk to a lawyer with experience in "implied warranty" cases in the state of sale. Obviously, the first option is to be preferred, but sometimes the good will of the people we deal with bumps into an upper-level manager who has to approve such actions and is having a bad day. Or month or year.
We owned an NSX for ten years, always servicing it at the same dealer who picked it up one day when we weren't feeling well. The driver took it back down an ill-chosen road and crashed it. He was devastated. The service manager was mortified and got the general manager involved right after notifying us. The GM offered to swap the original loaner for a more luxurious model while our car was repaired, and we were down to negotiating something like replacing the worn leather on the driver's seat to make up for the loss of value, until... Until the owner got involved. She said "Like Hell" and called to suggest we use our own insurance. "After all, it could happen to anybody. Besides, I need that service bay. When can you have the car towed away?"
Our insurance carrier is USAA, who is excellent in fact. They would have had it repaired more comprehensively than the dealer I'm sure, but they flatbedded the NSX to a shop of my choice almost a hundred miles away, and we learned that the damages went way beyond the value of the car. We quit tallying the estimate at $40,000. USAA cut us a check, gave us a low-interest loan on any replacement we wanted to buy, and then sued the pants off her. (Well, technically, it was arbitration between USAA and her insurance company; and realistically she probably can still afford pants, despite what it did to her rates. Mine are fine of course.)
And that is how I ended up with a new Porsche -- answering questions on Rennlist. Lots of good and bad trade-offs in life. Maybe you'll discover that car was the one that James Dean died in and at auction it brings... no, that couldn't be... Well, maybe you'll end up better off somehow, Jay.
At the very least, reversing a sale is not so big a deal as replacing an NSX, so the owner may not get involved at the selling dealership. And if you agree to take another Porsche instead of wanting your money back, this might even fall strictly within the purview of the sales manager, who can agree to the deal, get another sale on this month's books, and then dump this car on the service manager to find an answer to these symptoms. He can definitely get PCNA tech support to figure it out, so it's a win-win situation, right? Well, at least it would be a win for you, and that's all that matters to us.
Good luck.
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Gary
#20
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I get a bit of seat shake too at idle. Moreso than say a lexus or an audi sport sedan but in line with previous porsches I've driven- they're a bit "rawer" than many sport sedans. If you're missing on a cylinder, the display will throw a check engine light but you sound like you'd notice this and I don't think engine imbalance would cause the steering to shake at speed.. and it would be RPM dependent not speed dependent. That may be a red herring but a tech should notice a problem like this right away.
My vote based on the info you've given is that the front end is toed neutral or even toed out. My second vote is something going on with the front end bushings.
Good luck... one thing I've learned is that given enough time you can solve these issues or at least find the root cause(fixing it may not be financially viable). It just depends on if you care enough to keep chasing it instead of selling the car. It can be quite frustrating and I feel for you.
My vote based on the info you've given is that the front end is toed neutral or even toed out. My second vote is something going on with the front end bushings.
Good luck... one thing I've learned is that given enough time you can solve these issues or at least find the root cause(fixing it may not be financially viable). It just depends on if you care enough to keep chasing it instead of selling the car. It can be quite frustrating and I feel for you.
#21
Drifting
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Gary, I've kept the selling dealership in the loop on all this hassle. The saleman seems genuinely concerned, but can't do much of course due to the distance involved. They have offered to take the car in trade on any other vehicle in their stock.
Rich, thanks for your advice. It's a pain for sure, but either the car will get fixed (more money solves most problems) or moved on down the road. It's a flawless car otherwise.
Rich, thanks for your advice. It's a pain for sure, but either the car will get fixed (more money solves most problems) or moved on down the road. It's a flawless car otherwise.
Last edited by Jay H; 11-15-2011 at 09:17 PM.
#22
Drifting
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Just a quick update...
The final new winter tire has arrived today from The Tire Rack. The dealer called today and I can get the 997 in tomorrow for the mounting and balancing of these two new tires to replace the one out of spec rear tire and the one front that has a really high road force number. Hopefully they can fit in an alignment as well.
The final new winter tire has arrived today from The Tire Rack. The dealer called today and I can get the 997 in tomorrow for the mounting and balancing of these two new tires to replace the one out of spec rear tire and the one front that has a really high road force number. Hopefully they can fit in an alignment as well.
#24
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I assume they'll take the car in trade at the price you paid, right? You've got many more $$$$ invested in head/heart ache by now, they should be willing to give you what you gave them.
#25
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So since this thread got me thinking about my issue, I dug into it some more. I took it to my new favourite shop and they immediately put the car up on the hoist. They found a VERY VERY slight bend in the front right wheel. The guys who road force balanced the tire didn't notice it. Go figure. But that explains it.
Now that I know what it is, I will eventually buy a new wheel.
Now that I know what it is, I will eventually buy a new wheel.
Last edited by hoffa; 11-16-2011 at 09:40 AM. Reason: typo
#26
Drifting
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Let's see what today's eighth visit (in 8 weeks of ownership) to a service facility brings...
#28
Drifting
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I've given up on the Carrera IV rims and summer Michelins for now. Those fronts are new, but shake worse than the winter tires on the Carrera III rims. I felt I should concentrate on one set of rims and tires and the winter set up was the best of the bunch. I have no idea if the Michelin dealership's Coats brand wheel balancer is in spec. It's not a road force capable machine either.
This is really confusing isn't it?
The service advisor at the dealership I took the car to this morning feels the shake at idle is normal. He's driven more 997's than all of us combined, so I trust his opinion on that issue.
#29
Race Director
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The trip last Friday to the 2nd Porsche dealership revealed one left rear winter tire was completely out of spec and could not be balanced. They recommended that I replace that tire. Also, The Tire Rack felt that the 20 pound road force number that the front left tire is showing could very well give the vibration I'm feeling in the wheel. The dealership felt the same. So, it was one last thing to replace both tires before going after suspension components or brakes. Both Porsche dealerships feel there are no issues with either brakes or suspension and both dealerships have several hours of inspection labor spent on those areas, but at this point, I don't know for sure which shop's opinion to trust.
I've given up on the Carrera IV rims and summer Michelins for now. Those fronts are new, but shake worse than the winter tires on the Carrera III rims. I felt I should concentrate on one set of rims and tires and the winter set up was the best of the bunch. I have no idea if the Michelin dealership's Coats brand wheel balancer is in spec. It's not a road force capable machine either.
This is really confusing isn't it?
The service advisor at the dealership I took the car to this morning feels the shake at idle is normal. He's driven more 997's than all of us combined, so I trust his opinion on that issue.
I've given up on the Carrera IV rims and summer Michelins for now. Those fronts are new, but shake worse than the winter tires on the Carrera III rims. I felt I should concentrate on one set of rims and tires and the winter set up was the best of the bunch. I have no idea if the Michelin dealership's Coats brand wheel balancer is in spec. It's not a road force capable machine either.
This is really confusing isn't it?
The service advisor at the dealership I took the car to this morning feels the shake at idle is normal. He's driven more 997's than all of us combined, so I trust his opinion on that issue.
Sincerely,
Macster.
#30
Drifting
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Just to chip in there have been cases, not many, but enough that you need to keep the possibility in mind, that the winter wheels have a centering hole that is not properly sized. The tire/wheel will balance on the machine ok but when the wheel/tire is bolted up to the car the wheel is not centered and you have a shake.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Sincerely,
Macster.
I am also assuming the Carrera III rims are designed for the hubs on my '06 997.
The car is done. We'll see how it drives tonight...