PDK vs Manual?
#47
Nordschleife Master
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Yes, there is no debate. The PDK at its full potential is .4 seconds or so quicker 0 to 60 then a MT driven at full tilt 0 to 60. Where that half second matters on the track and everyone is using the latest technology to gain an edge it can make a difference initially. However, I'm sure a skilled MT driver can still beat a less skilled PDK driver around the track..apples to apples.
My point is that in normal recreational spirited driving I doubt any of us can feel that .4 seconds from the seat of our pants. Whoever can feel that .4 of a second please let us know and how is it you can "feel it"?
I liked the PDK it had its pluses and minuses. I just like my 6 speed better with its own pluses and minuses. The PDK was very a very slick trans. Great performer.
They are both great choices. Just depends on what you like.
I do think that in the future the traditional 6 spd MTs will be hard to find and will be desired. Kinda like the traditional gated shifter in the Ferraris. Hard to find in a sea of paddles. A diamond in the rough.
My point is that in normal recreational spirited driving I doubt any of us can feel that .4 seconds from the seat of our pants. Whoever can feel that .4 of a second please let us know and how is it you can "feel it"?
I liked the PDK it had its pluses and minuses. I just like my 6 speed better with its own pluses and minuses. The PDK was very a very slick trans. Great performer.
They are both great choices. Just depends on what you like.
I do think that in the future the traditional 6 spd MTs will be hard to find and will be desired. Kinda like the traditional gated shifter in the Ferraris. Hard to find in a sea of paddles. A diamond in the rough.
#48
Nordschleife Master
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0.4 s at 60MPH is 35 feet...
#50
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#51
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Thanks Everyone,
I will say this again. My interest isn't which is better we could debate that forever and neither side is a clear winner. What I am trying to figure out is how PDK owners drive their cars on the road, in traffic, cursing along, fun country roads and the track. As I wrote before in almost every case when I have purchased a performance sedan I play with the sport shifting but in a short period of time I end up driving it in auto 99% of the time.
As several have said about driving manual cars. I am the kind of person that likes to shift and be engaged in my driving. In the case of the PDK. I see the positives when in traffic which I am at times. PDK would be great then. As I have read the posts I like the fact that several PDK owners shift and drive similar to when they had manuals.
Please keep the thoughts coming regarding how it is to drive and what experiences you have had.
Thanks,
I will say this again. My interest isn't which is better we could debate that forever and neither side is a clear winner. What I am trying to figure out is how PDK owners drive their cars on the road, in traffic, cursing along, fun country roads and the track. As I wrote before in almost every case when I have purchased a performance sedan I play with the sport shifting but in a short period of time I end up driving it in auto 99% of the time.
As several have said about driving manual cars. I am the kind of person that likes to shift and be engaged in my driving. In the case of the PDK. I see the positives when in traffic which I am at times. PDK would be great then. As I have read the posts I like the fact that several PDK owners shift and drive similar to when they had manuals.
Please keep the thoughts coming regarding how it is to drive and what experiences you have had.
Thanks,
#52
Rennlist Member
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I think PDK on the track is cheating.... There, I said it...
Let me first comment that PDK is an amazing technological achievement. It changes everything, and I truly believe that. On the street, it is better than Tip and a very fine way to travel in a GT car. On the track, it allows lesser drivers to post faster lap times and think they are better than they really are.... And that is the rub.
I have compared in previous posts the advent of the dual-cluth to the introduction of "shape skis" in alpine skiing (circa 1998). Up until that time, 95% of skiers struggled with looking and skiing like novices. The top 5% were able to stem-christie, literally bounce on their skis, and carve perfect turns. This ability took YEARS of practice, amazing athelticism and dexterity. However, once the shape ski came out (think of leaning left on a skate board and the turn just happens), the middle 50% now look like experts on groomed runs and no doubt are having much more fun. This has been GREAT for the ski industry, as more people can look good and feel good. However, swagger in the apres ski lounge and on the lift has hit an all-time high.
So is PDK on the track really cheating? Of course not. It just feels like it is... It will be a blast when ALL cars come equipped with it. Hell, I stuggle with heel-n-toe and would rather not have to learn it. But what will be left to separate the men from the boys??? Everyone has anti-lock brakes, electornic nannies, and now automated rev-match shifting. What next? Programs to drive-by-GPS the ulimtate lap based on my Traqmate compilation of Rennlists fastest laps ? Just sayin...
-B
Let me first comment that PDK is an amazing technological achievement. It changes everything, and I truly believe that. On the street, it is better than Tip and a very fine way to travel in a GT car. On the track, it allows lesser drivers to post faster lap times and think they are better than they really are.... And that is the rub.
I have compared in previous posts the advent of the dual-cluth to the introduction of "shape skis" in alpine skiing (circa 1998). Up until that time, 95% of skiers struggled with looking and skiing like novices. The top 5% were able to stem-christie, literally bounce on their skis, and carve perfect turns. This ability took YEARS of practice, amazing athelticism and dexterity. However, once the shape ski came out (think of leaning left on a skate board and the turn just happens), the middle 50% now look like experts on groomed runs and no doubt are having much more fun. This has been GREAT for the ski industry, as more people can look good and feel good. However, swagger in the apres ski lounge and on the lift has hit an all-time high.
So is PDK on the track really cheating? Of course not. It just feels like it is... It will be a blast when ALL cars come equipped with it. Hell, I stuggle with heel-n-toe and would rather not have to learn it. But what will be left to separate the men from the boys??? Everyone has anti-lock brakes, electornic nannies, and now automated rev-match shifting. What next? Programs to drive-by-GPS the ulimtate lap based on my Traqmate compilation of Rennlists fastest laps ? Just sayin...
-B
#53
Rennlist Member
#54
Race Director
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A 0-60 result, whether you've ever been timed or not, is a broad indicator of a car's straight line performance. The point that was being made is that a .4 second difference to 60 is significant enough that you could definitely feel it "seat of the pants".
#55
#56
Race Director
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I think PDK on the track is cheating.... There, I said it...
Let me first comment that PDK is an amazing technological achievement. It changes everything, and I truly believe that. On the street, it is better than Tip and a very fine way to travel in a GT car. On the track, it allows lesser drivers to post faster lap times and think they are better than they really are.... And that is the rub.......So is PDK on the track really cheating? Of course not. It just feels like it is... It will be a blast when ALL cars come equipped with it. Hell, I stuggle with heel-n-toe and would rather not have to learn it. But what will be left to separate the men from the boys??? Everyone has anti-lock brakes, electornic nannies, and now automated rev-match shifting. What next? Programs to drive-by-GPS the ulimtate lap based on my Traqmate compilation of Rennlists fastest laps ? Just sayin...
-B
Let me first comment that PDK is an amazing technological achievement. It changes everything, and I truly believe that. On the street, it is better than Tip and a very fine way to travel in a GT car. On the track, it allows lesser drivers to post faster lap times and think they are better than they really are.... And that is the rub.......So is PDK on the track really cheating? Of course not. It just feels like it is... It will be a blast when ALL cars come equipped with it. Hell, I stuggle with heel-n-toe and would rather not have to learn it. But what will be left to separate the men from the boys??? Everyone has anti-lock brakes, electornic nannies, and now automated rev-match shifting. What next? Programs to drive-by-GPS the ulimtate lap based on my Traqmate compilation of Rennlists fastest laps ? Just sayin...
-B
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#57
Rennlist Member
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Why do we need to compete at who is the most manly?
Fun, that is what this is about, right?
#59
Race Director
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I had a C4S with PDK. I was hot and cold on the PDK. Don't get me wrong, it's a great trans. It's not as involving though. It removes you one step further from being part of the car and the experience of driving. If I was racing and wanted every advantage possible I'd go with paddles. If I want to have a classic sports car experience in one of the worlds greatest sports cars it's got to be the traditional MT.
The MT is by far more involving and consequently more fun. I can't feel that 3 tenths of a second difference in quickness. Can anyone? I can feel the difference in fun and involvement with the car though.
That's my take.
The MT is by far more involving and consequently more fun. I can't feel that 3 tenths of a second difference in quickness. Can anyone? I can feel the difference in fun and involvement with the car though.
That's my take.
"If I want to have a classic sports car experience in one of the worlds greatest sports cars it's got to be the traditional MT."
if you also deleted the good heater/AC, dimmed the nice bright bi-xenon headlights, removed the modern nice fat tires for for some skinny old ones, made the brakes smaller, did away with all the modern suspension and handling refinements and aerodynamic refinements, stripped out all that nice sound deadening, removed the anti-rust protection from the body metal, poked some holes in the oil lines and loosened some bolts to allow some gaskets to seep oil, tossed in a few rattles and electrical gremlins, removed the modern engine controller, ripped out the injectors and replaced them with carburetors, added a distributor with points and mechanical advance, and then you would have that "classic sports car experience".
Claiming the presence of a MT gives one that classic sports car experience in a modern sports car like a Porsche is akin to donning an old WWI flying scarf and leather flight jacket before boarding a modern commerical jet and claiming the flight gives one the "classic biplane experience".
Sincerely,
Macster.
#60
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Macster you miss the point. Whether the heater is on, the sound deadened or the body rusting away, none of these takes any effort on the driver's part. A perfectly executed rev matched heel and toe 6th to 3rd or 5th to 2nd downshift in a MT takes what?
Skill, of course
Skill, of course