alexb76

THAT IS A TURBO! Turob Tip IS FASTER than Turbo 6-speed. As I stated above. It's also in the numbers published by Porsche. None of this is new!

alexb76

Problem is that you can never agree to disagree, and always think people are directing comments to you, when it's not the case.

It is also very clear that Manual is faster in all performance tests, as well as for any above average driver... you disagree? fine! Next time in CA, let's bring out a Tip and go around twisties... see how we compare? PDK doesn't count!

rijowysock

if you put the car into kickdown against a 6sp.. the tip will always be faster, cause it knows exactly what gear to enter and shifts perfectly.. PDK would be even faster..

6speed has too many variables to make it faster, unless your a robot the auto will be faster, especially using kick down.


in performance tests they rev the manuals high as can be to make them that fast, the new auto's with launch control combat this and therefore show better times.... i read a review on my exige where they revved it to like 6500 to launch it for tests... WTF 6500!!! it only goes to 8500!

alexb76

Magazines kill the clutches yes, and usually post much better numbers than published numbers by Porsche/other car manufacturers. Tip is definitely slower in 997.1 as it's NOT JUST THE SHIFTING, it's the fact that you LOSE HP in the Torque converter, and have more wieght due to a HEAVIER tranny. PDK solved two Tip problems, no torque converter+faster shifting ... hence faster (still heavier though).

ADias

You are always very quick in judging. I certainly agree to disagree. Perhaps you have not noticed but I never said a manual is slower than a tip on proper hands. You have a tendency to argue what I am not arguing.

Another thing. I do not race on public roads.

Palmbeacher

No, but the lack of availability of a standard in a Porsche (should it happen ever, and the way everyone is gushing over the automatic, it could happen) would propel me back to Mercedes, where the zen of the car (quiet, smooth, luxurious) is in keeping with an automatic.

If my daily commute was in rush hour stop and go I think I'd really hate the clutch (especially the Porsche clutch because it's so truck-like stiff compared to say a Toyota). But since stoplights are at least a mile apart around here, and the terrain is flat as a pancake, I get all the fun factor and none of the knee pain. Before I bought my 997 I test drove several with automatic, and they weren't bad, but since this is my first and most likely only Porsche, I wanted one last standard. I get just more of an adrenaline rush to working a clutch and stick than flipping switches with my fingertips.

alexb76

Hmm, I like to see your post you agreed to disagree!
But now we are on the same page, manual is faster under capable hands!

We can still show how you can take a turn within speed limit... you don't track either, do you?

alexb76

Agreed. Even on the track, I enjoy manual more... it just needs more involvement, hence provides more driving satisfaction, even if it may cost a few tenths of a second.

Actually it's almost the same argument as rear-engine setup, it's NOT as ideal as mid-engine, hence not as fast, but it for sure is more engaging and fun to drive!

Nugget

I'd guess that on track whatever tenths of a second you migh lose from manual shifting inefficiencies are overshadowed by the tenths of a second you gain from having a whole extra gear which allows you to make better use of the torque from the engine (speaking of tip, not PDK, obviously).

PDK is clearly the performance winner by any measure. When they do start to make a PDK GT3 it'll be a tough choice for me, indeed.

alexb76

Exactly. or a sequential gearbox (like cup cars), as for some reason PDK is hard to implement on a GT3, although Ferrari has managed to do it, so I think 991 GT3 will have it.

sin911

Can you even integrate a sequential into a street car and make it comfortable? I've taken a ride in a GT3 cup and when taking off the car was constantly shaking... I don't think it's a good idea for a street car. Plus cup car transmissions constantly get rebuilt, is it possible to make them last on the street? Does sequential even have "reverse" (I really don't know the answer)?

There are too many questions about the sequential gearboxes

ADias

People always want what they cannot have. Some think the grass is greener on the other side. The PDK is a great sequential.

rbsf123

rijowysock, that is an interesting observation. Is the kickdown associated with sport chrono option or can it be implemented on the regular tip? How is it accomplished?

Also, this has been an informative thread for me and I appreciate all the responses. I enjoy the convenience and performance of the tip but I think Steve, the second poster, had it right -- a 997 is an awesome driving machine either way.

swajames

The thing with the Tip is that it can give you most of the performance potential of the car all of the time with much less dependency on driver talent. I don't disagree that the Tip (and to a lesser extent the PDK) will take something away from the level of involvement with the driving experience but, irrespective of the Porsche specs on the 997.1, it's a reasonable probability that the Tip will indeed be faster in the hands of most of us. Most of us simply don't have the talent needed to extract all of the performance the car has to offer, all of the time. As the old saying goes, if there's one thing that unites all of us, irrespective of our race, color, religion or creed, it is that, deep down, we're all convinced that we're above average drivers...

996tnz

alexb76: my bad, I do see you mentioned the Turbo Tip being faster earlier already.

Back then to the original topic which was a query as to the relative speed and safety of the Tip vs Manual in real-world twisties.

RBSF 123 wrote: "I could not help but think the tip would be faster and safer due to being able to keep both hands on the wheel in this kind of driving and eliminate the added elements/distractions in manual shifting. I know this might be heresy to some, but is my hypothesis correct for the average p-car driver?"

Think I agree with you on this. Here are my thoughts on it:

Unlike on a dragstrip, most corners on a racetrack, or even on a smoothly flowing motorway, a 'spirited' driver can never quite know what lies around the next corner in the twisties. Any time at or after apexing, they could suddenly be looking at a herd of cows, a horse and rider, or a tractor pulling out across their lane from a gate etc etc. The difference between Tip and manual drivers at this point will be that one has both hands on the wheel and the other might or might not have both hands there. Manual drivers generally select the best exit gear before going into a bend so SHOULD have both hands on the wheel coming out but since you're asking about the average driver there is a fair chance they may still have a lazy hand on the stick or be changing gear as they exit an unfamiliar corner.

Both hands on the wheel makes swerving and subsequent correction easier and even just line correction during limit braking easier (PSM helps but won't turn the steering wheel for you).

Sometime brakes aren't the answer and rapid acceleration may be needed to avoid a potential side impact for instance. If initially caught in too high a gear for a sudden emergency (exiting a tightening radius bend for instance), I'm picking the tip will kickdown faster (especially during spirited driving) than someone could complete a manual shift without the chance to prepare for it ahead of time. Haven't 360ed any car so maybe someone else can comment on manual vs tip under that scenario.

In a manual there is a also a small but non-zero chance of grabbing the wrong gear at a crucial moment, potentially upsetting the balance of the car. The tip can also guess wrong but is likely to be one gear off versus 2 off for the manual. Just compare type 2 over-revs in the OBD between manuals and tips to see what I mean.

The Tip driver also has a slight advantage in being able to concentrate a bit less on shift points etc and a bit more on line and reading the road ahead. This should benefit safety and performance, especially on unfamiliar and twisty back roads. This advantage is perhaps most obviously demonstrated in offshore powerboat racing where they typically put a younger driver with faster reflexes on the steering and an older more experienced guy on the throttle and trim. At the speeds they go while having to read the water ahead, it is too much for one person to do both properly at maximum pace.

I'm sure there are some situations where the manual may be safer (able to roll start on a flat battery for instance) but don't think they'd outweigh the above.

For the record, if driving for fun, I'd rather take a manual (because it is more challenging and involving - but then so was manually adjusting spark retardation back in the day) but wouldn't think it safer for most real world twisties. Probably not quicker either until having taken the road at least several times.