ADias

Unless it is a PDK... which allows you to downshift in the middle of a turn to great advantage. No unsettling, just smooth power surge. And you better have Porsche's dual/redundant steering wheels shifting buttons, as you would be shifting, in full attack mode, sy in a hairpin with the steering wheel fully rotated (try that with the silly paddles everyone is after).

996tnz

TipTronic S also downshifts before turn in on corners, and does so pretty aggressively when it considers it should be in its most sporting mode eg, under heavy braking like when on track. Was surprised and very happy with how well it handled at Hampton Downs, a new and challenging track here - never felt it wasn't grabbing the best gear. From hairpins to sweepers it was a blast. i supopse a gradually decreasing radius bend might be more likely to catch it out (never noticed this though) but Tip S is very good. . Never a problem on road yet either, unless you bag it for holding a lower gear for a while after kickdown and release (I like this as it keeps it primed). 996 PSM on the other hand...

ADias

As I said before, TipS is quite good. It has a bad rap from people who do not know how to drive it. It is adaptive and it has to learn (from a good driver).

alexb76

Really? I think it's exactly the other way around, people who don't know how to drive, can't utilize manual shifting... hence gotto rely on Tiptronic to do it for them... or is it PDK?

Come on guys, this is such a black and white that there is no point discussing it. In terms of shifting PDK>Manual>Tip. Now, I absolutely LOVE the manual feel, so I still prefer it to PDK but am not foolish enough to say PDK is slower, while some claim Tip is faster!!!

cbzzoom

Ah yeah, forgot about that factor. I'm not sure just how significant it is though.

Even watching Jason Plato and Chris Harris try to hit great 0-60 times, those guys miss shifts pretty often in manual cars, so I have to think that would be a huge factor for amateur drivers.

ADias

I have manual cars (actually just bought another one last week), std autos and PDK. I drive any manual car I get in without a glitch. I always feel sluggish manumatics in loaner cars (conditioned by its previous drivers) when I start driving them. I think I know what I am talking about, thank you!

cbzzoom

Hmm, interesting, you made me go read the Porsche page on Tiptronic :

http://www.porsche.com/microsite/tec...electedVariant

In sport mode it will downshift for you on braking, so on a track that should set you up perfectly for corner exists. It also detects lateral forces so it won't shift in a turn. Pretty impressive.

alexb76

You didn't start this discussion... so don't take everything personally Tony! Chill, why so defensive?!

It's black and white clear and I don't believe your expertise more than Porsche. ANY performance numbers on Manual vs. Tip for non-Turbo 997.1 cars ARE IN FAVOR of Manual. From 0-60, 1/4 mile to Nurburgring numbers. END OF THE STORY!

ADias

I am not being defensive, just making a point, countering your denying my point.

I entered this discussion because I feel the Tip always had an undeserved bad rap brought up by those who never understood it and have some ax to grind (why?) justifying their choices.

I brought up my experience with all these trannies because I actually drive them all and know the pluses and minuses of all of them. I am no Monday morning quarterback on this issue.

Re performance is not raw number performance. It is what everyday drivers actually accomplish... and that is what the OP raised, correctly.

996tnz

I left the Tiptronic S in Auto mode on track as the silly rocker switches on the wheel are tricky when the wheel is being turned upside down in tighter corners and hairpins. Bad on twisty roads too. Would prefer column mounted paddles where the same movement gets a consistent up or downshift each time.

In daily driving, the rockers have sometimes got hooked up on my loose shirt cuffs too. Never had that problem on my BMW with its wheel mounted accessory switches since the BMW ones are faired in much flusher. There is a lot of great Porsche design on a 996 but those shifter rockers missed out on it. My natural grip also places them under the heel of my thumb rather than near my thumb so I experimented with using the base of my thumb to trigger them but that doesn't work too well either.

The wheel mounted rockers are sometimes convenient (motorway driving?) but I wish Porsche had also retained the ability to change up and down with the floor shifter when in Manual mode.

Back on the topic of which is faster, Manual or Tip, I believe that the Tip S in Auto is likely faster in the slalom. Most cars at our DE were Tip, and several ran the slalom about as fast as our instructor did in his manual Cayman S. Didn't get a chance to ask the two people from other run groups who beat me in the slalom whether they were driving Tip or manual but I'd wager Tip.

Anyone else have some figures on this? Stands to reason that not having to take a hand off the wheel helps most when that wheel is being used most intensively. Our slalom course was curved with two 180 degree turns at each end so it might be different for a straight line of cones.

The Tip is slower in a straight line but I do wonder if most magazine testers etc knew to limit brake and/or pre-punch the accelerator to convince the Tiptronic S to preselect its most sporting mode before doing timed acceleration runs, laps, slaloms etc. My 996 Turbo is initially pretty sluggish in Auto otherwise. The Nurburgring is a big fast and open GT course compared to some of our favourite twisties so I would certainly not expect a Tip to have any advantage there.

stevepow

Man, I love the PDK shift buttons - versus the polarized paddles. I just about think a shift when I want it (even though the car can out think me, I still try). I reckon it is one of those things - love 'em or hate 'em. I'm in the very exclusive love PDK and love the buttons group. And some other odd groups as well...

ADias

Count me in on that group.

996tnz

Oops, might have spoken a bit too soon on Tips being slower in a straight line - here's an example of a magazine launching these Tiptronics properly (and it's a 997):

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/up...sche-911-turbo

Their Tip outdragged their manual. Cars vary though - maybe they got a great Tip or even one that had been flashed without them knowing? If not, it just confirms my suspicion that most other magazines don't know how to really push a Tip.

Not surprised that Porsche quotes slower times for these cars either - they don't want owners launching at 3000-4000rpm time after time to try and match faster, more realistic factory times, or - worse yet - returning cars or suing for specific performance to get those times...

sgrade1979

I have a manual C2S, but drove a PDK Targa 4S for several days. I can say, the PDK is faster for your average driver (me), but I did lose some of the "smile factor" while using it. I'll stick to manual trannies, slower or not, simply because I enjoy the feel of a manual trans so much.

stevepow

At least you gave it several days. Most of us who have PDK probably gave manual T's 20+ years of a test - several days on PDK is much better than the average "I tried it at the dealer" and it sucked decision point. And I agree about the speed thing too - unless you are a pro racer, who cares really what shifts faster. That's not much reason to do anything one way or the other.

But I get it - I still miss having an MT car too - almost criminal in my "old" mind to get a 911 this way - but it is just so cool. My ideal solution would be an MT 993 to go with my 997 - that'd be really sweet.