Edgy01

When you say "factory fill" you seem to imply that the last person to touch that are was the factory. If you picked up the car at Zuffenhausen then perhaps you have something here. but I assume that you picked up the car from your local dealership. The first thing they do when they get a new car in is to do the new car checkout. That includes checking oil and adding it as necessary. I don't believe anyone adds more oil than necessary just to lead the issue (unclaimed by the factory) that the DI engines are using more oil.

Perhaps when they are checking the level the electronic readout causes them to think it's a little low so they adjust it by adding. I don't believe for a moment that with 700 kilometers on the clock (assuming you're Canadian) it has accumulated THAT much moisture in the engine oil to bias the level by that amount. Is there gunk on the bottom of the oil filler cap? If not, moisture is probably not the factor.

Macster

You need to educate the service manager. If his techs are just dumping x quarts of oil in the engine after an oil change that's not the proper technique.

Unless the tech installed the drain plug while the oil was still pouring out of the hole there's not the much "residual" oil left in the engine. Oil is a fluid and will drain out of the oil reservior very well. Sure there is some oil remaining in the engine, in various passages and such, but there's not going to be any significant amount of oil just clinging the sides of the engine crankcase walls of the floor of the oil reservior that cause a significant variation in the amount oil remaining in the engine after an oil drain. Besides IIRC the shop manual recommends the engine oil be allowed to drain for 30 minutes.

Second the technique is to add some fixed quantity of oil that ensures the engine has sufficient oil to operate. Say if the engine takes 8.5 quarts, to add 8 quarts.

Then after some time check the oil level. If it is low, and most likely it will be, then add more oil in small amounts until the oil level is correct.

I've watched the techs do this at the dealer I take my cars to. They both tell me overfilling is not a good idea and most cars they see that have been serviced elsewhere are overfilled with oil.

The techs tell me it is better to run with the oil a few bars below max than to have the oil at max or worse above.

I follow the same technique as the Porsche techs follow when I change my cars' oil. For the Boxster I dump in 8 quarts (including the approx. half quart I add to the filter housing before I install it).

Then I double check the oil level with the dipstick and if ok start the engine and after a moment drive the car off the ramps and then shut off the engine.

I gather up my tools, clean up and change clothes. Then I check the oil level again with the dipstick and the in-dash display. This to make sure they are in agreement. Then I add oil until the oil level is where I want it. If I found that upon adding the 8 quarts the oil level was too high even just full I'd be wondering what happened.

Ok the Turbo. The Turbo is a bit different. I drain the oil from the engine crankcase and the oil tank. After changing the filter, I dump in 8 quarts of oil in the oil tank not through the oil filter opening as some do.

Since there is no dipstick to check the oil level before I start the engine I have only the empty quart bottles oil and I count them twice.

I start the Turbo's engine and after a moment or so drive the car off the ramps and let it sit and the engine idle while I put away tools, clean up, etc.

When the engine hot enough for the electronic oil level system to give an oil reading I check the oil level and add oil until the oil level reads where I want it.

Again if I found the thing full or overfilled after 8 quarts I'd suspect the oil sender unit was bad. Or if I found the oil level under where I expected it I'd check to make sure I added the proper number of quarts of oil to the engine and that all drain plugs in place and there were no leaks on the floor. If all this checked out I'd take the car in and have the oil level sender replaced.

There is no excuse for overfilling one of these cars with oil. If a dealer, a service manager no less, tells you that it happens cause of residual oil you need to question the dealer service department's ability to properly service your car.

An oil change is not rocket science. Anyone with any intelligence, and the proper training and the motivation to do the job right should be able to change his car's oil blindfolded. (In fact a good friend of mine -- since deceased -- was blind and used to change his vehicles' oil and do a good job of it too.)

Sounds like your dealer is short a few factory trained techs and the necessary supervision to ensure they follow their training and do a simple but *critical* job right.

Sincerely,

Macster.

Macster

Not impossible. Early on I had my Boxster's oil analyzed. IIRC -- I still have the paperwork in my files -- the oil had around 2K miles on it and had around 7% water. No coolant leaks. Just water making its way into the oil. This during the winter in the mid-west. I was not paying much attention but after I changed the oil I started paying more attention and noticed that even though I drove just over 10 miles to work -- at speeds ranging from 30mph to 45mph with just a few stop lights and stop signs between home and work the engine coolant temperature gage needle would not reach "180".

Further checking of the coolant temperature with an OBD code reader data viewer made it clear to me the engine was not getting anywhere near its "normal" operating temperature. I found it takes no little driving to get the engine fully up to operating temperature. And if I drove with the AC on which turns on the electric radiator fans this worked to prolong the amount of time it took the engine to warm up and reduce the peak temperature it obtained.

All during the time from cold engine start to engine shut down water vapor was being generated in the engine during combustion. That the engine accumulated some water over a span of time was to be expected.

Now in addition to driving the car to/from work 10 miles each way sometimes after work or during the week end I'd drive the car longer distances. 40+ miles or even nearly 150 miles (round trip) to visit my parents who lived about 75 miles from me.

So sometimes the engine got hot and hot enough to remove some water vapor.

But still the amount of water in the oil -- nearly 1/2 quart out of 9+ quarts total volume -- really impressed upon me how much water engine oil could collect.

It is not far out impossible scenario and one I believe more common than we would like to accept.

I agree that regardless of how the oil level got too high the oil level should be reduced.

My belief is an oil change at this stage of the car's life would serve several purposes: 1) Replace the initial fill oil and original filter with fresh clean oil and a new filter; 2) Result in the oil level's correctness being restored and giving the owner a reference point to watch the oil level going forward; 3) Give the tech a chance to ensure the oil level sending unit, circuit, et al, working ok and the oil level it provides reflects reality.

Sincerely,

Macster.

Macster

My experience is the dipstick and electronic reading agree to a point. But the fact remains the in-dash display affected by the car's levelness, or lack of it, to the point when the car parked on say slope to the right or the left the reading will read near the minimum line level, even though when I checked the oil before it read near the maximum level when the car was on more level ground.

Me I check the oil level often enough to know that when the oil level reading reads "off" that if the car is not level this accounts for the difference and doesn't bother me, is no reason for alarm.

But I'm sure this characsteristic has to result in some customers bringing the car in with a complaint about the oil level and with the result of "no problem found".

Or worse, to attempt to assuage the customer's concerns the service department dumps some extra oil and overfills the engine's oil a bit.

The dipstick and the electronic oil sensor/sending unit vie for the same location and one has to be given preferential treatment and the better location. In the case of the early cars it was the dipstick. The other electronic unit received second billing as it were.

Now with just the electronic unit it is located at the ideal spot.

But to keep down the upset to the customer by a variation in oil levels arising from the car's levelness, or lack of it, I note with my 03 Turbo which has no dipstick just the electronic oil level electronics if the far is not level the oil level reading is not provided and the display provides info message to this effect.

Sincerely,

Macster.

RollingArt

I don't doubt a single word of what you've said above. I did say it was possible. But in 700km, or 435mi, highly unlikely.

And I really like the idea of oil analysis. I haven't done this yet but plan on doing it to my Porsches from now on.



Phil

Hella-Buggin'

OK, what's my best immediate solution.
I can try and take it back this week and have some drained, maybe .5 qrts or so? Is it ok to drive mildly until then?

I can try and drain a little myself, although I don't have a crush washer or a torque wrench?

Maybe removing and draining the oil filter will get me where I need t be but, ashamed to admit it... I don't even know where it is. I just got this car a little bit ago.

slicky rick

hi helispud, when joints start aching and getting in and out of the car is not worth the fun of the drive...

slicky rick

hi dan, i assumed it was factory fill because when i got the car it had i 5 kms on it. but as you so say, when these dealers get the cars the do a pdi and check if the oil is ok, which is totally agree with you with, and the possibility of the overfill is surely there. i will get the dealer to remove some. i am sure the amount ove ris not substantial as no warning is present. however, it is written that in no terms should the car be overfilled and i guess the extra box on the monitoring gauge is the safety factor allowed. i just hope i havent damaged anything in the 700 kms i have driven.

Macster

If you have changed the oil/filter successfully in other cars and have the tools and time and motivation you can remove the excess oil. Removing the oil filter housing and pouring out the oil removes about 1/2 quart.

You install the housing and filter sans any oil but the extra brief time before the oil flows is not a problem.

There has to be a 997 oil change/filter replacement DIY instruction around somewhere.

If you haven't changed the oil this is not the occasion to learn, or if you just don't want to do it, then take the car to the dealer and ask the excess oil be removed.

It might help to have the page bookmarked and the applicable section highlighted in the owners manual that cautions against overfilling the oil and express some disappointment that new car checkout didn't catch this and you hope nothing else was missed. Sort of trying to put the dealership/service department on the defensive so there'll less push back to remove the oil. Don't spread the disappointment thing on too thick but bring up if there's any push back.

Sincerely,

Macster.

simsgw

Rick, this should have been a short answer: "Your display is normal and everything is fine. Don't worry. Be happy." Or something of the sort. Since we've had some amazing answers already, I'll have to say more.

Don't do that, Rick. You don't have too much oil in the car. And you don't have water in your oil. Or gasoline or fairy dust either. (At least, not based on this little computer graphic. I make no assertions about things hypothetical brothers-in-law, ex-spouses, or fairy godmothers may be doing while we're not looking.)

That segmented vertical bar accomplishes only two purposes:

• Provide a progressive display of oil level within the acceptable range. Permit the driver to recognize trends to anticipate the need to add oil. The resolution is about half a quart, so you can see the need to add a quart coming up, but you have a margin of an extra half quart's consumption during which you may find time to do that.
  
• Provide a confirmation of the need to add oil when further operation poses a risk of engine damage. In other words, if you ignore the quiet progression of the bars downward until an oil warning message is posted, then that lowest bar will flash to say "Yes. Believe the warning. ADD OIL."

When the sump sensors report the oil is out of range, either too high or too low, you will get an oil warning message. An urgent alert to check your oil. Only an idiot would convey that warning with this bar graph display that you can't access unless the car is warmed up and then allowed to idle for an additional minute. Of course, it's equally true that only an idiot would wait until a warning before adding oil. Check the display regularly. Just don't read into it things that were not intended.

The bottom segment flashes after a warning has been posted to add oil, but that is just confirmation and a reasonable graphic design choice. Can you imagine the potential confusion if the coder just turned off that bottom segment when the reading was below minimum? The oil warning messages carry the crisis information. If you aren't getting a warning, things are in the normal operating range and you have no problem the sensors can detect. It may be time to add a quart, but that's not a problem, just a duty. Do not for God's sake, remove oil. Not unless someone screwed up and you're getting a warning message generated by an overfill, as someone here did describe.

For reasons too boring to recount, a computer display is a pain in the *** if it turns on a segment only when the value reaches the top of the range that the segment represents. Dealing with those boring reasons requires choices by a graphic designer. That little half segment above the line is a common choice of that sort. Those choices are usually second-guessed by everybody from ****-retentive engineers to merely **** lawyers. In this case, the final decision has a nice side effect. The symbolic distance of two fat segments plus that little one above the line equates to a full liter of oil, so if you follow the guideline of adding oil when you're two segments down below the line, and you do it exactly at the moment the second segment turns off, you still won't overfill the sump. You'll just turn on that little segment above the line that indicates the last cupful of oil to reach the sump's capacity.

Remember that the manual was written by supposed document experts from information provided by multi-national lawyers, German engineers, and other non-English speaking creatures. Then it was proofed by the engineers working from a translation back into German or their own limited bilingualism. When they got done, the lawyers appended a stack of yellow post-it notes requiring admonitions three times over for any subject that might awake the hunger of a trial lawyer in the thirty years of the car's life. The wonder is we can piece together any sense at all from the result.

What the manual is trying to tell you is to not add oil if the reading is already at the little line or even just one fat segment down. But when the sump is properly filled after an oil change the quantity in the sump will always cause that little half segment just above to light up. It is intended to work that way. Mine does. Everybody else's does as well when the fill is done according to factory specifications. That's fine. Just don't try to achieve that yourself by adding another half can of oil every time the little segment goes off. No matter how **** retentive you are personally. Wait until you have at least two of those fat segments below the line turned off before you add oil.

That's all the combination of trial lawyers, dealer representatives and factory engineers are trying to say.

Enjoy your car, Rick. And congratulations on your good taste in choosing it.

Despite the impression given occasionally by discussions here, Zuffenhausen uses engineers to design these cars, and damn fine ones, not shade tree mechanics who forget things like the dregs of oil that don't drain when you do an oil change. (Come on, guys. My MG shop manual from 1965 specified one quantity of oil for a change without removing the filter, another for a change with a new filter, and a third value after tearing down the engine and rebuilding it that accounted for the quantities of oil never gone unless you had steam cleaned the block. Do you really suppose the engineers at Porsche somehow suffered corporate amnesia in the fifty years since English engineers noticed those differences? An amnesia that somehow our collective forum wit was required to recognize? Do we have a cute little graphic for a derisive snort?)

Gary

simsgw

You're okay, Hella. As my long answer explains, and as someone should tell that service manager, that top half-segment is just a programmer's answer to a perennial problem of discrete displays for analog information. Not the only answer, but a useful one. If you don't have an oil warning message like Bob reports, you're just fine.

Gary

simsgw

I agree with most of what you say, Macster. You're overkilling the problem, but what the hell. So is three coats of wax. They're our cars, so enjoy the work if you're going to do it.

Speaking as an engineer however, all that is necessary is adding the correct amount of oil after a procedure. (One amount for an oil change and usually a different amount after a teardown.) You specify the correct amount and then add procedures to make sure the first step was done correctly. Counting the cans is what I was taught too. It's probably a good idea to check the indicator as well, just as you do. Either our electronic gauge or a dipstick, because I've known more than one person to refill with oil and not notice it was coming out the bottom because they forgot to replace the drain plug.

All that is fine, but I think you're overreacting to the service manager's answer when bugged about this. Even supposing he's been taught how that gauge works and why it's that way, which is supposing a lot, people in those positions develop a set of answers to what they consider "the ten most annoying stupid questions." They fiddle around trying different things until they find something that will shut down further questioning. I don't endorse this behavior, it's just human nature. This sounds like one of those answers intended to get the customer off the phone without hard feelings. I can hear him thinking, the first fifty calls he got with this question: "What am I? A goddam computer programmer? How do I know why those little bar segments do what they do?"

They almost certainly are just 'dumping' in X quarts of oil, or possibly X.5 liters. That's their specified procedure. If you ask each mechanic to be an artist and follow your personal technique, you'll end up with mistakes. Sure as anything. Most will be trivial and just require a re-work (a cost managers hate), but once in a while you'll lose an engine from a mistake. Nobody writes shop procedures like that. They will have a specified amount of oil to put in the car, which will be dependent on the procedure they're doing and the model they're working on. They won't improvise. Then they will make confirming checks of the result. That's all. Done and done right.

When I noticed that little over-the-line segment on our car, I made a point of asking the mechanic -- personally -- to check the sump manually to confirm the instrument, since I had no dipstick. We did together. And he confided that it is indeed one of those very frequent questions. He didn't know why it was that way. I did, after we checked everything manually and I thought about it a minute, but I wasn't there to provide tutorials to the staff. I just told him what I said here: "It's one of those things computer guys have to do when using that type of display. Otherwise it would give wrong answers in a worse way. Bet it's a pain in the ***, right?"

That left us on good terms and he and his service manager are more likely to listen to me when I complain about a real problem. Like maybe this occasional graunch when I let out the clutch, which is becoming more frequent.

Gary

slicky rick

gary, appreciate the very comprehensive explaination. i however went to the dealer already and requested for a tuning of the oil level. You are right, the excess oil drained was very minimal... however, now i feel better that the computer is indicating it is in the right range. more than anything it provides me with probably, a false sense of assurnce that everything is right.

simsgw

That's alright, Rick. What's a cupful of dinosaur between enthusiasts?

Gary

slicky rick

cheers.