alexb76

Since still new to 911 and how to handle its rear-engine setup, was wondering what are some tips on best way to control the back-end if one started losing it?

I've found a couple of times that I got *stupid* and went into a sharp 90 degree corner too fast (both on damp roads), the back-end start losing traction and moves about. Obviously this is mostly due to the fact that I wasn't properly entering the corner or smoothly transitioning the weight (I never expeirence this on the track).

It's a bit of a nervous situation and usually PSM/AWD (C4S) and steering wheel adjustments fixes it.

However, I was wondering what's the best way in 911 to straighten the car when it happens? I believe if I had room I can just put more power to bring traction back, but sometimes that's hard to do if there's not much room.

Any tips are greatly appreciated! First DE of season coming up in April!

RonCT

First suggestion goes to your last point. If you are starting DE, then that's a great place to learn car control and not by reading ideas from us

Secondly, you really shouldn't be driving "out of control" on the street. I've been street and track driving my M3 and then Porsches for many years and have yet to break the rear loose on the street whether wet, cold, damp, etc. There's so much traction there. It's just as hard to break them loose on the track, even on low radius 90s and fast entry speed, full throttle at apex, etc. Maybe it's your tires? I've only had PS2s, so can't answer to others. But the PS2s stick like glue pretty much no matter what.

Probably the most common incident I see on the track is when a beginner is tracking out and on the throttle and gets spooked because he feels he applied too much, or has carried too much speed through to track-out. The panic hits and instead of either gently reducing throttle, unwinding the steering wheel to get steerage back, or staying on throttle to run through the issue (ie: drive over rumbles), he lifts abruptly. That shifts the weight of the car back onto the front tires, which are understeering, and then the spin starts as the front tires bite from the weight transfer.

Basically, take it easy on the street and go to DE with an open mind to learn.

sjfehr

1) You should never be driving that fast on the street to have to worry about it.
2) Don't lift! "Lift oversteer" is counterintuitive, but if you're entering a corner too fast, lifting off the throttle is about the worst thing you can do as the weight transfer makes the slide even worse and can turn a minor slide into a full spin... unfortunately, it's what most of us instinctively do. If you haven't hit this yet during a track session, you can probably go much faster

When this happens, don't panic. Hopefully you've had plenty of practice during DEs and autocross and recovery is instinctive, right? Otherwise, countersteer into the skid and hope PSM saves your ***. It's an excellent system and if your situation is recoverable, it probably will save you.

This has happened to me twice on damp roads. Both times very minor, but I've considered both to be the failure of me as a driver, as I should never be pushing my car that hard on public roads. (Traffic intersections force you to take horrible lines, and are very poor places to practice anyhow )

Edgy01

While the current generation (997) of 911 is fairly well dialed in (particularly so with the 4WD cars) the typical problem with a 911 is entering a sharp corner at too high a speed and as fear overtakes you, you back off on the throttle and you wind up making a bad situation worse. Believe it or not, the best solution is to apply throttle to power yourself through that curve. Clearly, however, you should be practicing these maneuvers on a controlled environment. Remember some basic rules to driving fast:
(1) Your car will go where your eyes go. If your eyes go off course the car will usually follow. Bad.

(2) Treat the accelerator like you have an egg between your foot and the pedal in such conditions. All movements--steering, throttle, should be gentle and gradual.

If you have the means, try and take some driving training classes. As an alternative, buy an older 911 (from the 70s or 80s) and learn to drive THAT car fast. If you can master a true "911" mastering a 997/4 will be child's play.

alexb76

Ok, let me explain what happened, maybe my rear tires are the culprit. What I've noticed a couple of time is basically powering out of a corner traction issue on damp road.

So, the recent one (last night), I was at a stop, turning right, felt like powering out of it and as soon as I was mid-way into the corner, the backend lost it under power. Is this more of lack of tire traction? My PS2 are down to 3/32 on the inside, 4/32 on the outside.

BTW, I am super safe street driver, just asking to know what to do if a similar situation occured. I've tracked the 997 twice, once on a short track with slow corners, once at Portland, but after the morning exercises, got a flat so couldn't do a proper track day. I never felt rear losing track on either of the two times and Portland was in torrential rain sitation! We did some accident avoidance manouvers, and car was stable as could be in quick lane change transitions.

Wills

They taught me that one at Porsches Silverstone facility last week.....And it works!

4 Track Mind

Agreed. Gentle deliberate inputs are in order. Seat Time. There is no substitute. Any time you drive the car at the limits of adhesion you are actively learning. Driving on the track improved my driving in the slick and vice versa I suspect. I noticed an improvement the first winter after I started DE with Audi. Save the oversteer for an open parking lot. Maybe a more seasoned member can chime in as I have fewer than 20 track days under my belt and none for a few years.

Quadcammer

what you're talking about is simply power on oversteer. You are over powering the tires when coming around the turn. In a perfect world, you stay on the throttle and countersteer your way into looking pretty cool. If you lift of, you most likely get snap oversteer the other direction and you end up looking like a chump in the best case or banging up your car in the worst.

ADias

1 - Take DE lessons.
2 - Note also that 'never lift' is a matter of degree. Do not interpret that as slamming the pedal. It just means enough throttle to manage movement of mass from back to front. This is another way of saying what Edgy01 stated above.
3 - Sharp turn stunts on public roads means trouble.

alexb76

Thanks guys, all points well taken. I've got around 12 DE days under my belt, mostly driving front heavy cars, first a GTI, then Audi S4, and as I said 1.5 DE events with the 997. I've never experienced any of this before, so still learning the car dynamics. Funny enough on my GTI, I tried intentionally to oversteer it by lifting! as it did understeer like crazy!

I am more suspecting that I need to change rear tires, just 30mins ago driving up to parents in moderate rain, I lost traction driving up on driveway, and again turning left at stop light at very moderate speed, had to ensure not to put too much throttle.

I just put the summers back (this week), and it sounds like it's time to replace them although it looks like they got one summer left!

KeninBlaine

I have found that once the tires get worn like yours, they don't behave that well. While they may have "summer" mileage left, that may not apply to wet road conditions so typical of Vancouver. I expect you'll find things improve with better rear tires.

Edgy01

And a good book to read for those of you inclined: "The Art of Racing in the Rain" by Garth Stein. (There is little driving instruction in there but everything within I learned a long time ago--good reinforcement.) And no--it's not all about racing in the rain!

inverterman

More DE Alex. You should be able to manage bald tires and get the most out of it safely. I suggest that you take the 911 to a local track on a rainy day. (Have decent tread on the car or full tread R compounds) You should get plenty of track time. When you can get up to speed and consistency without going into PSAM, turn it off and start over, gently ratcheting back up to the same speeds.

I huge learning experience that should be done at least twice a year. IMO

axhoaxho

It reminds me of just a few day ago, I attended an event that Tommy Kendall was a guest speaker.

One of Tommy Kendall's memorial quotes in that event was:

"Slow In, Fast Out. Fast In, Spin Out."

I guess it is especially true for our rear-engine 911.

Regards,

inverterman

Here is a Sunday drive basically, chasing a 2300 pound POC Race car on slicks. Sorry about the telemetry but you can see the gauges. Little unwind here, a little oversteer there. Forward to last few minutes and you will see how to deal with a problem. Watch the RPM on the dash, very telling how to control a P car that is unhappy. Never lift off..........................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdpTlZ0VZNw