Will the 997's depreciate as badly as the 996?
01-07-2010, 02:21 PM
#76
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In alot of ways this discussion is pointless. A car is a depreciating asset. You don't buy one and use it with the expectation that it will hold its value because it won't. The market drives the value of the asset. It going to depreciate and that factor can not be controlled. You'll realize the value of the asset at the time you complete your sale. Worrying about this is a waste of time and energy especially since it won't change anything.
01-07-2010, 02:26 PM
#77
I also agree with the poster who said that most people (99.9%) cant't tell the difference between a 996 or a 997. I'm often asked if mine is brand new.
but the slow evolution of the 911 is all part of the grand master plan. Those of you who think the 997 is a radical design departure......I just don't get what you are talking about.
01-07-2010, 02:34 PM
#78
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Wait until you see the next "new 911." It will knock your socks off! Over time, I believe the 993 and 997 will be the ones most desired for their looks and features. Although many are obsessed with the 993 looks mechanically they are quite dated and becoming nightmares. The 997 still retains the fresh looks, with a fundamentally more reliable engine and tranny package. As CarGuy suggests, get over the worries and drive the car. I have a friend who was absolutely scared to drive him for fear of lessening its value on the used market. He got over it and now enjoys it like I do mine. They are cars designed to be driven and enjoyed.
If you have (1) never driven it in the rain nor (2) ever used the headlight washers then you probably are not using the car enough at all.
If you have (1) never driven it in the rain nor (2) ever used the headlight washers then you probably are not using the car enough at all.
06-24-2013, 02:24 AM
#79
Instructor
Excluding one time factors that get priced in at some point, such as the nasty headlights on the 996 and the nostalgia of the air cooled engine in the 993, I found that all Porsche 911 models from 2011 - 1993 depreciate at between 5.1-5.9% a year, plus extra depreciation due to mileage.
So the expectation of 5.5% depreciation + mileage holds even for the 993, assuming you bought one a few years ago, it will continue to depreciate at that rate. Only the original owner benefited from low depreciation for the first few years.
So yeah, no Porsche is sacred, aside from some rare collectibles. They are all going down for the foreseeable future. You just have to decide if you can afford 5.5% + financing charges + opportunity costs.
For a $50,000 Porsche, assuming 2.5% financing and $100/mo insurance and $1000 in maintenance and only 3,000 miles a year, you are looking at $6,000 in costs for year 1, or $500 a month. Not cheap, but not exactly unaffordable for people who keep their expenses low or make good money. Of course, if you add opportunity costs, $500/mo probably becomes more like $5,000/mo if you had saved for retirement instead
So the expectation of 5.5% depreciation + mileage holds even for the 993, assuming you bought one a few years ago, it will continue to depreciate at that rate. Only the original owner benefited from low depreciation for the first few years.
So yeah, no Porsche is sacred, aside from some rare collectibles. They are all going down for the foreseeable future. You just have to decide if you can afford 5.5% + financing charges + opportunity costs.
For a $50,000 Porsche, assuming 2.5% financing and $100/mo insurance and $1000 in maintenance and only 3,000 miles a year, you are looking at $6,000 in costs for year 1, or $500 a month. Not cheap, but not exactly unaffordable for people who keep their expenses low or make good money. Of course, if you add opportunity costs, $500/mo probably becomes more like $5,000/mo if you had saved for retirement instead
06-24-2013, 01:12 PM
#80
Rennlist Member
993 prices started stabilizing a couple years ago and are actually on the rise now. Speaking to the guys at Porsche Classic, the 993's are viewed by Porsche as the next 356. Buy them while they are relatively cheap.
That being said, the 996, 997 and eventually the 991 will all depreciate as ABQ997 said. I think the 997 will fair better than the 996 has long term though. Specialty cars like the GT3's, GT2's, Speedster, etc. will retain more of their original value and have a better chance of appreciating in the future.
That being said, the 996, 997 and eventually the 991 will all depreciate as ABQ997 said. I think the 997 will fair better than the 996 has long term though. Specialty cars like the GT3's, GT2's, Speedster, etc. will retain more of their original value and have a better chance of appreciating in the future.
06-24-2013, 01:36 PM
#81
Drifting
996 wise, spot on! IMO it's the worst 911 of all time and every time I see one approaching, I can't tell if it's a Boxster or not until I see beyond the nose. Also the headlights are a disaster. Appears that Porsche put all of their attention converting from air cooled to liquid and slapped on Boxster parts and other bad designs. That being said, that is why I feel the 997 will never share the same fate and the 996 will continue to be bottom of the barrel in pricing.
06-24-2013, 02:17 PM
#82
Good point Dan, I never thought of the 997 in that way, as the last true Porsche.
996 wise, spot on! IMO it's the worst 911 of all time and every time I see one approaching, I can't tell if it's a Boxster or not until I see beyond the nose. Also the headlights are a disaster. Appears that Porsche put all of their attention converting from air cooled to liquid and slapped on Boxster parts and other bad designs. That being said, that is why I feel the 997 will never share the same fate and the 996 will continue to be bottom of the barrel in pricing.
996 wise, spot on! IMO it's the worst 911 of all time and every time I see one approaching, I can't tell if it's a Boxster or not until I see beyond the nose. Also the headlights are a disaster. Appears that Porsche put all of their attention converting from air cooled to liquid and slapped on Boxster parts and other bad designs. That being said, that is why I feel the 997 will never share the same fate and the 996 will continue to be bottom of the barrel in pricing.
06-24-2013, 03:46 PM
#83
Poseur
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Depreciation is when you park a car and don't use it and the price goes down.
There is no 'depreciation' when you actually drive and use the car. You are getting a service for that money. The utility value of the vehicle is measurable. Many park these things and whine about dropping 'values.'
There is no 'depreciation' when you actually drive and use the car. You are getting a service for that money. The utility value of the vehicle is measurable. Many park these things and whine about dropping 'values.'
06-24-2013, 04:49 PM
#84
Drifting
Agreed. Its the nature of folks doing bad accounting.
There is even value in the parked car - the opportunity/option to be able to drive it whenever you want.
If you want to recover the money you paid, don't buy a car... there are some very select cars that appreciate, and if you are in restoration you might also do better.. but a car is something you drive and take enjoyment and value from, as the resale value goes down. Don't worry about it.
If the depreciation is something you are really worried about, then the car isn't the right one for you. Move along. nothing to see here.
There is even value in the parked car - the opportunity/option to be able to drive it whenever you want.
If you want to recover the money you paid, don't buy a car... there are some very select cars that appreciate, and if you are in restoration you might also do better.. but a car is something you drive and take enjoyment and value from, as the resale value goes down. Don't worry about it.
If the depreciation is something you are really worried about, then the car isn't the right one for you. Move along. nothing to see here.
06-24-2013, 05:55 PM
#85
997 will depreciate no differently than any other water-cooled Pcar as soon as supply of 991's get up to the levels of the 996 and 997.
There are simply wayyyy too many Porsche cars out there and the second hand market of buyers for out-of-warranty Porsches is not remotely deep enough to absorb that kind of long-term inventory. Once a Porsche hits a certain mileage point and its price falls into the $25-35K range it's seen by the typical buyer in that pricing territory as more of a long-term liability than anything else, the badge does not inspire confidence for an out-of-warranty experience. 997's are already dipping into the mid $30K's with plenty of inventory to come.
A person interested in buying their very first Porsche today can choose between 996/997/991 or Cayman/Boxster or Cayenne/Panamera. Hundreds of thousands of cars in every color, every trim, every engine, tin top or no top, etc. There is nothing exclusive about buying a Porsche anymore. And money is cheap now which makes getting into the next new and out of the old thing all the easier -- thereby dumping even more supply of pristine 997's into the market.
Meanwhile the 993 simply benefits from an extremely limited production. Barely 2,000 cars sold in 1998 meanwhile we're talking about 20,000 Carreras a year in the early water-cooled years. If 20,000 993's had been built every year of its run they would be commanding nowhere near the prices they are today.
p.s.
Best value today is a 996 Turbo. Metzger for less than $40K. Some are spotless. Run circles around a mushy handling 993 garage queen.
There are simply wayyyy too many Porsche cars out there and the second hand market of buyers for out-of-warranty Porsches is not remotely deep enough to absorb that kind of long-term inventory. Once a Porsche hits a certain mileage point and its price falls into the $25-35K range it's seen by the typical buyer in that pricing territory as more of a long-term liability than anything else, the badge does not inspire confidence for an out-of-warranty experience. 997's are already dipping into the mid $30K's with plenty of inventory to come.
A person interested in buying their very first Porsche today can choose between 996/997/991 or Cayman/Boxster or Cayenne/Panamera. Hundreds of thousands of cars in every color, every trim, every engine, tin top or no top, etc. There is nothing exclusive about buying a Porsche anymore. And money is cheap now which makes getting into the next new and out of the old thing all the easier -- thereby dumping even more supply of pristine 997's into the market.
Meanwhile the 993 simply benefits from an extremely limited production. Barely 2,000 cars sold in 1998 meanwhile we're talking about 20,000 Carreras a year in the early water-cooled years. If 20,000 993's had been built every year of its run they would be commanding nowhere near the prices they are today.
p.s.
Best value today is a 996 Turbo. Metzger for less than $40K. Some are spotless. Run circles around a mushy handling 993 garage queen.
06-24-2013, 06:05 PM
#86
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997 will depreciate no differently than any other water-cooled Pcar as soon as supply of 991's get up to the levels of the 996 and 997.
There are simply wayyyy too many Porsche cars out there and the second hand market of buyers for out-of-warranty Porsches is not remotely deep enough to absorb that kind of long-term inventory.
A person interested in buying their very first Porsche today can choose between 996/997/991 or Cayman/Boxster or Cayenne/Panamera. Hundreds of thousands of cars in every color, every trim, every engine, tin top or no top, etc. There is nothing exclusive about buying a Porsche anymore. And money is cheap now which makes getting into the next new and out of the old thing all the easier -- thereby dumping even more supply of pristine 997's into the market.
Meanwhile the 993 simply benefits from an extremely limited production. Barely 2,000 cars sold in 1998 meanwhile we're talking about 20,000 Carreras a year in the early water-cooled Carrera years. If 20,000 993's had been built every year of its run they would be commanding nowhere near the prices they are today.
There are simply wayyyy too many Porsche cars out there and the second hand market of buyers for out-of-warranty Porsches is not remotely deep enough to absorb that kind of long-term inventory.
A person interested in buying their very first Porsche today can choose between 996/997/991 or Cayman/Boxster or Cayenne/Panamera. Hundreds of thousands of cars in every color, every trim, every engine, tin top or no top, etc. There is nothing exclusive about buying a Porsche anymore. And money is cheap now which makes getting into the next new and out of the old thing all the easier -- thereby dumping even more supply of pristine 997's into the market.
Meanwhile the 993 simply benefits from an extremely limited production. Barely 2,000 cars sold in 1998 meanwhile we're talking about 20,000 Carreras a year in the early water-cooled Carrera years. If 20,000 993's had been built every year of its run they would be commanding nowhere near the prices they are today.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
06-24-2013, 06:16 PM
#87
More like 100,000 Carreras of all flavors built since 2002. That's not many 911s to select from, especially if someone is looking for a well maintained used Porsche.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday
Sunday
There are 1,000 water-cooled Carreras on Autotrader right now...
Plenty of inventory and the outlook is getting better each day the 991 rolls about.
p.s.
Why since 2002? You're leaving out 1999, 2000, 2001. For a second hand buyer these are good IMS dual row, IMS-servicebale Carreras that can put the average weekend warrior within a couple of seconds of a Cup Car laptime...with no oil stains in the drive way to boot.
Last edited by perfectlap; 06-24-2013 at 06:50 PM.
06-24-2013, 06:20 PM
#88
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If you have $20-$40K you can buy a well-maintained, enthusiast-owned, water-cooled Carrera on the following days:
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday
Sunday
Plenty of inventory and the outlooks is getting better.
p.s.
Why since 2002? You're leaving out 1999, 2000, 2001. For a second hand buyer these are good IMS dual row, IMS-servicebale Carreras that can put the average weekend warrior within a couple of seconds of a Cup Car laptime...with no oil stains in the drive way to boot.
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday
Sunday
Plenty of inventory and the outlooks is getting better.
p.s.
Why since 2002? You're leaving out 1999, 2000, 2001. For a second hand buyer these are good IMS dual row, IMS-servicebale Carreras that can put the average weekend warrior within a couple of seconds of a Cup Car laptime...with no oil stains in the drive way to boot.
I understand now - you're a Boxster owner who wishes that someday he will be able to own a 911, and thus attempting to talk down Carrera resale values.
06-24-2013, 06:30 PM
#89
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997 will depreciate no differently than any other water-cooled Pcar as soon as supply of 991's get up to the levels of the 996 and 997.
There are simply wayyyy too many Porsche cars out there and the second hand market of buyers for out-of-warranty Porsches is not remotely deep enough to absorb that kind of long-term inventory. Once a Porsche hits a certain mileage point and its price falls into the $25-35K range it's seen by the typical buyer in that pricing territory as more of a long-term liability than anything else, the badge does not inspire confidence for an out-of-warranty experience. 997's are already dipping into the mid $30K's with plenty of inventory to come.
A person interested in buying their very first Porsche today can choose between 996/997/991 or Cayman/Boxster or Cayenne/Panamera. Hundreds of thousands of cars in every color, every trim, every engine, tin top or no top, etc. There is nothing exclusive about buying a Porsche anymore. And money is cheap now which makes getting into the next new and out of the old thing all the easier -- thereby dumping even more supply of pristine 997's into the market.
Meanwhile the 993 simply benefits from an extremely limited production. Barely 2,000 cars sold in 1998 meanwhile we're talking about 20,000 Carreras a year in the early water-cooled years. If 20,000 993's had been built every year of its run they would be commanding nowhere near the prices they are today.
p.s.
Best value today is a 996 Turbo. Metzger for less than $40K. Some are spotless. Run circles around a mushy handling 993 garage queen.
There are simply wayyyy too many Porsche cars out there and the second hand market of buyers for out-of-warranty Porsches is not remotely deep enough to absorb that kind of long-term inventory. Once a Porsche hits a certain mileage point and its price falls into the $25-35K range it's seen by the typical buyer in that pricing territory as more of a long-term liability than anything else, the badge does not inspire confidence for an out-of-warranty experience. 997's are already dipping into the mid $30K's with plenty of inventory to come.
A person interested in buying their very first Porsche today can choose between 996/997/991 or Cayman/Boxster or Cayenne/Panamera. Hundreds of thousands of cars in every color, every trim, every engine, tin top or no top, etc. There is nothing exclusive about buying a Porsche anymore. And money is cheap now which makes getting into the next new and out of the old thing all the easier -- thereby dumping even more supply of pristine 997's into the market.
Meanwhile the 993 simply benefits from an extremely limited production. Barely 2,000 cars sold in 1998 meanwhile we're talking about 20,000 Carreras a year in the early water-cooled years. If 20,000 993's had been built every year of its run they would be commanding nowhere near the prices they are today.
p.s.
Best value today is a 996 Turbo. Metzger for less than $40K. Some are spotless. Run circles around a mushy handling 993 garage queen.
06-24-2013, 06:42 PM
#90
The web site I provided a link for only kept the sales figures back to 2002. Why are you combining all Carreras along with any variety of Porsche in this discussion that is centering on 997 resale values?
I understand now - you're a Boxster owner who wishes that someday he will be able to own a 911, and thus attempting to talk down Carrera resale values.
I understand now - you're a Boxster owner who wishes that someday he will be able to own a 911, and thus attempting to talk down Carrera resale values.
2-thanks for posting incomplete sales stats.
as far as your extremely stupid remark about the Boxster and this "some day"... What I paid for my Boxster S, and the modifications/upgrades since then, was enough to have put me into any number of barely used 997 or 996 since I made the purchase. You should learn to debate points without resorting to ad hom. This may shock you to know, but some people actually prefer Porsches with the engine in the middle. Porsche were making and racing the cars this way lonnnnnng before the idea of a revamped 356 ever entered anyone's mind.
p.s.
If you think I "talk up" the value of Boxsters or Caymans and Cayennes for that matter, you are sadly mistaken.
It's called supply and demmand. You don't have to have an emotional reaction when you hear it discussed.