Long Report: 997.2 C4S FVD Brombacher Exhaust (on the track). Full system Installed.
11-01-2009, 12:37 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Long Report: 997.2 C4S FVD Brombacher Exhaust (on the track). Full system Installed.
Headers, 200 cell cats, side mufflers.
Full system info on mfg site: http://shop.fvd.de/us/en/Porsche-0/9...Forwarding_no/
At idle a gentle deep purr, rising with load and RPM's to the sound of a Cup Car. The upper end of the rev range, especially with some load is pure auditory heroin. So far every person that has heard it through the full rev range has commented it is the best exhaust sound they have ever heard.
The video was the first shot using my new Race-Keeper system and I had two loose data cables (fault of the installer, me, not the system) hence the sometimes jitters and sometimes mismatch of data and sound/video. Will fix that and post a couple more vids.
Reno-Fernley Raceway, road course, "Test&Tune" $100 all day, support your local track!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xAzJAi8k2s
and the whole track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVmCratS0BY
And four drive-bys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfBxJa3U1vI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZejb0rkxV0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR7eGapnSco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnKhjfvfwLQ
I did the install myself with the car on the ground. Not recommended for the faint of heart, but it can certainly be done if you have the tools and some time.
The quality and look of the FVD Brombacher exhaust system is amazing. The connectors are extremely high-quality The welds are very well done, the look inside shows the care to blend in and smooth the gas flow path. The outside finish is like a piece of jewelery.
Power delivery is very linear, there is a dyno graph on FVD's site and by seat of the pants I don't doubt it. Some exhaust systems kill bottom end torque to get high-rpm power which makes no sense to me for a street car.
I ran four Dynolicious before/after runs using launch control, under near identical ambient conditions and they confirmed FVD's power increase claims.
I also weighed the FVD system and it was .5 lb less than their claim. So, I am convinced in a market of sometimes very questionable power claims, the FVD folks are 100% honest.
The fact is FVD Brombacher exhausts are designed and manufactured by M&M in Germany. And they build the systems that go on the majority of Porsche race cars. The experience shows.
Finally, Rhonda, FVD's rep here in the USA is "A #1" in service and she knows her products intimately. Every step of the purchase experience has been handled with care and integrity.
She can customize the sound loudness to your preference. There is NO DRONE or resonance under any conditions. My system is "Jeckyl&Hyde". At idle, and on the highway at 70 mph, it is very quiet in the cabin. Like stock db's but a bit deeper. But on your way to WOT, the gates of hell open and anybody for a 1/2 mile around will think a race car just got onto the road.
Caveats:
1. Upon a cold start (sitting overnight), the engine management system is doing something to help fire off the cats for emission purposes. My thought is it is using VarioCam to hold the exhaust valves open longer or sooner to dump some heat into the cats, and in the 5 seconds-1 minute this is occurring, the idle on this system is loud (sounds like a Cup car idle). At any other time idle is very quiet and civilized. You will notice even the stock exhaust is LOUD upon a cold start.
2. I am getting a CEL after a hour or so of steady-state hiway driving, specifically P0421/P0431 (after CAT oxygen sensor). This CEL has ZERO effect on the mapping or driveability of the engine. It is simply a notification that the ECU sees a reading not expected in regards to the CAT exit gasses. For me the solution will be installing FVD's soon to be released, self-installed, ECU software. Which will also unlock more power gains.
My local dealer saw the system, is totally friendly towards mods, and loves it, and in fact offered to install it for me. They also did a "track" alignment as much as allowed by the stock suspension pieces- 1 degree neg camber (maxed out) front/ 2.5 degree neg rear. Not ideal but the tires are wearing evenly across the tread surface after two full tanks of gas worth of track time on a bumpy track with rough pavement. Reno Porsche service dept is awesome in every way- thanks guys!
Those with less friendly dealers, fearing warranty issues, I ask you: Who owns your car? Do whatever the F you please, yes? Take off the panties, grab your ***** and understand if you don't abuse your car it will give you years of trouble free service. Abuse= running hard before oil comes up to temp, driving it once a month for five miles like grandma, running it out of oil.
BTW- The C4S, espicially with Sport PASM is a freakin' hoot on the track. A supercharged Lotus Exige on racing slicks and I were running neck and neck for 20 minutes. If you don't get a track license and give these cars a work-out, you have NO IDEA what you are missing. This is what "Sport Plus" button was made for! The PDK downshift blips at 4-5000 RPM are fantastic and the upshifts are so fast, yet smooth. Be sure to get high-quality instruction first. Porsche Sport Driving School is superb. A local school will get you up and running, but without the Porsche specific driving tecniques.
In summary: The FVD Brombacher full exhaust system is not for everybody. If all you care about is loudness and cheapest, there are better suited alternatives. If you don't want to sacrifice low-end torque and seek a smooth, linear power increase across the powerband with CUP car WOT sound yet civilized with good tonal quality and no resonance at lower RPM's and superb build-quality then this system is for you. I feel I received excellent value for the money spent.
This is my email to Rhonda after I installed it:
"Rhonda,
This system is fricken' crazy! Love it!
Delivered yesterday. So I got up early this AM and tackled the install. Pretty straight-forward, plenty of adjustment for fit. Sturdy mounting. Superb quality.
Fired it up about seven hours later, inside the garage, and thought oh-boy (loud), because of enclosed area and the 997.2 lights-off with a very ragged idle when cold. After a couple minutes it settled down (and quieted down) and I backed it out and it was actually only a tad louder than stock. Drove long enough to warm it up and then hit the fun pedal. Holy cow...birds flew, children screamed, old people threw their walkers to the side and ran in terror. What a hoot.
Stopped by the post office... the local Porsche (BMW/Volvo) dealer is on the side as I drive out. A few salesmen were on the lot with customers and when I hit WOT (driving 600 feet away on the main road), EVERYBODY froze and spun around on their heels to see what the hell was driving past. I need to go back and collect my commission, as I know that sold some cars :-)"
Pics:
Full system info on mfg site: http://shop.fvd.de/us/en/Porsche-0/9...Forwarding_no/
At idle a gentle deep purr, rising with load and RPM's to the sound of a Cup Car. The upper end of the rev range, especially with some load is pure auditory heroin. So far every person that has heard it through the full rev range has commented it is the best exhaust sound they have ever heard.
The video was the first shot using my new Race-Keeper system and I had two loose data cables (fault of the installer, me, not the system) hence the sometimes jitters and sometimes mismatch of data and sound/video. Will fix that and post a couple more vids.
Reno-Fernley Raceway, road course, "Test&Tune" $100 all day, support your local track!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xAzJAi8k2s
and the whole track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVmCratS0BY
And four drive-bys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfBxJa3U1vI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZejb0rkxV0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR7eGapnSco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnKhjfvfwLQ
I did the install myself with the car on the ground. Not recommended for the faint of heart, but it can certainly be done if you have the tools and some time.
The quality and look of the FVD Brombacher exhaust system is amazing. The connectors are extremely high-quality The welds are very well done, the look inside shows the care to blend in and smooth the gas flow path. The outside finish is like a piece of jewelery.
Power delivery is very linear, there is a dyno graph on FVD's site and by seat of the pants I don't doubt it. Some exhaust systems kill bottom end torque to get high-rpm power which makes no sense to me for a street car.
I ran four Dynolicious before/after runs using launch control, under near identical ambient conditions and they confirmed FVD's power increase claims.
I also weighed the FVD system and it was .5 lb less than their claim. So, I am convinced in a market of sometimes very questionable power claims, the FVD folks are 100% honest.
The fact is FVD Brombacher exhausts are designed and manufactured by M&M in Germany. And they build the systems that go on the majority of Porsche race cars. The experience shows.
Finally, Rhonda, FVD's rep here in the USA is "A #1" in service and she knows her products intimately. Every step of the purchase experience has been handled with care and integrity.
She can customize the sound loudness to your preference. There is NO DRONE or resonance under any conditions. My system is "Jeckyl&Hyde". At idle, and on the highway at 70 mph, it is very quiet in the cabin. Like stock db's but a bit deeper. But on your way to WOT, the gates of hell open and anybody for a 1/2 mile around will think a race car just got onto the road.
Caveats:
1. Upon a cold start (sitting overnight), the engine management system is doing something to help fire off the cats for emission purposes. My thought is it is using VarioCam to hold the exhaust valves open longer or sooner to dump some heat into the cats, and in the 5 seconds-1 minute this is occurring, the idle on this system is loud (sounds like a Cup car idle). At any other time idle is very quiet and civilized. You will notice even the stock exhaust is LOUD upon a cold start.
2. I am getting a CEL after a hour or so of steady-state hiway driving, specifically P0421/P0431 (after CAT oxygen sensor). This CEL has ZERO effect on the mapping or driveability of the engine. It is simply a notification that the ECU sees a reading not expected in regards to the CAT exit gasses. For me the solution will be installing FVD's soon to be released, self-installed, ECU software. Which will also unlock more power gains.
My local dealer saw the system, is totally friendly towards mods, and loves it, and in fact offered to install it for me. They also did a "track" alignment as much as allowed by the stock suspension pieces- 1 degree neg camber (maxed out) front/ 2.5 degree neg rear. Not ideal but the tires are wearing evenly across the tread surface after two full tanks of gas worth of track time on a bumpy track with rough pavement. Reno Porsche service dept is awesome in every way- thanks guys!
Those with less friendly dealers, fearing warranty issues, I ask you: Who owns your car? Do whatever the F you please, yes? Take off the panties, grab your ***** and understand if you don't abuse your car it will give you years of trouble free service. Abuse= running hard before oil comes up to temp, driving it once a month for five miles like grandma, running it out of oil.
BTW- The C4S, espicially with Sport PASM is a freakin' hoot on the track. A supercharged Lotus Exige on racing slicks and I were running neck and neck for 20 minutes. If you don't get a track license and give these cars a work-out, you have NO IDEA what you are missing. This is what "Sport Plus" button was made for! The PDK downshift blips at 4-5000 RPM are fantastic and the upshifts are so fast, yet smooth. Be sure to get high-quality instruction first. Porsche Sport Driving School is superb. A local school will get you up and running, but without the Porsche specific driving tecniques.
In summary: The FVD Brombacher full exhaust system is not for everybody. If all you care about is loudness and cheapest, there are better suited alternatives. If you don't want to sacrifice low-end torque and seek a smooth, linear power increase across the powerband with CUP car WOT sound yet civilized with good tonal quality and no resonance at lower RPM's and superb build-quality then this system is for you. I feel I received excellent value for the money spent.
This is my email to Rhonda after I installed it:
"Rhonda,
This system is fricken' crazy! Love it!
Delivered yesterday. So I got up early this AM and tackled the install. Pretty straight-forward, plenty of adjustment for fit. Sturdy mounting. Superb quality.
Fired it up about seven hours later, inside the garage, and thought oh-boy (loud), because of enclosed area and the 997.2 lights-off with a very ragged idle when cold. After a couple minutes it settled down (and quieted down) and I backed it out and it was actually only a tad louder than stock. Drove long enough to warm it up and then hit the fun pedal. Holy cow...birds flew, children screamed, old people threw their walkers to the side and ran in terror. What a hoot.
Stopped by the post office... the local Porsche (BMW/Volvo) dealer is on the side as I drive out. A few salesmen were on the lot with customers and when I hit WOT (driving 600 feet away on the main road), EVERYBODY froze and spun around on their heels to see what the hell was driving past. I need to go back and collect my commission, as I know that sold some cars :-)"
Pics:
Last edited by savyboy; 11-01-2009 at 08:22 PM. Reason: Clarify points/fix grammar
11-01-2009, 07:48 PM
#3
Nordschleife Master
your aware you just voided your engine warranty as per PCNA's demand that any modification to the cats or before the cats shall void any and all warranty to the engine. i have asked on several occasions and a friend of mine has asked PCNA directly and every time they said any problems arise and they are not liable because the DFI engine is very tricky and sensitive to these things.
they have said this ver batim, several times. and will stick to it considering the DFI engine requires restriction at the headers/cat to run perfectly due to the soot issue that arises.
they have said this ver batim, several times. and will stick to it considering the DFI engine requires restriction at the headers/cat to run perfectly due to the soot issue that arises.
11-01-2009, 08:22 PM
#4
Drifting
Thread Starter
your aware you just voided your engine warranty as per PCNA's demand that any modification to the cats or before the cats shall void any and all warranty to the engine. i have asked on several occasions and a friend of mine has asked PCNA directly and every time they said any problems arise and they are not liable because the DFI engine is very tricky and sensitive to these things.
they have said this ver batim, several times. and will stick to it considering the DFI engine requires restriction at the headers/cat to run perfectly due to the soot issue that arises.
they have said this ver batim, several times. and will stick to it considering the DFI engine requires restriction at the headers/cat to run perfectly due to the soot issue that arises.
2. Even if it did/does void some portion of the engine warranty- I own the car. Not the dealer. The engine is known to be extremely reliable. I wanted more power, better sound, less weight. The risk/reward equation is tilted so far in my favor as to render it meaningless to me.
3. Please document your lack of back-pressure causes soot assertion? Not heresay, preferably Porsche documents. Because I know of no basis in fact for your claim. My pipes are sootless. Pic below.
(pics reflect two tanks of gas on the track, and 4 hours of highway/around town driving)
Not intending my tone to be argumentative or harsh, simply disagreeing civilly with conviction, yes?.
So many live their lives in fear of the unknown. Or at the foot of some imagined master who they allow to dictate thier behavior. I prefer a life lived fully.
To each his own.
11-01-2009, 08:34 PM
#5
Nordschleife Master
1. My local dealer could care less.
2. Even if it did/does void some portion of the engine warranty- I own the car. Not the dealer. The engine is known to be extremely reliable. I wanted more power, better sound, less weight. The risk/reward equation is tilted so far in my favor as render it meaningless to me.
3. Please document your lack of back-pressure causes soot assertion? Not heresay, preferably Porsche documents. Because I know of no basis in fact for your claim. My pipes are sootless. Pic below.
(pics reflect two tanks of gas on the track, and 4 hours of highway/around town driving)
Not intending my tone to be argumentative or harsh, simply disagreeing civilly with conviction, yes?.
So many live their lives in fear of the unknown. Or at the foot of some imagined master who they allow to dictate thier behavior. I prefer a life lived fully.
To each his own.
2. Even if it did/does void some portion of the engine warranty- I own the car. Not the dealer. The engine is known to be extremely reliable. I wanted more power, better sound, less weight. The risk/reward equation is tilted so far in my favor as render it meaningless to me.
3. Please document your lack of back-pressure causes soot assertion? Not heresay, preferably Porsche documents. Because I know of no basis in fact for your claim. My pipes are sootless. Pic below.
(pics reflect two tanks of gas on the track, and 4 hours of highway/around town driving)
Not intending my tone to be argumentative or harsh, simply disagreeing civilly with conviction, yes?.
So many live their lives in fear of the unknown. Or at the foot of some imagined master who they allow to dictate thier behavior. I prefer a life lived fully.
To each his own.
i am not one of the people that live in fear of the warranty police, but with the large amount of issues they have had with the DFI engines i did do my homework to find out where the draw the line.. and they draw the line at the cats.. anything after the cat they couldn't care less about... anything before.. they will not accept warranty claims.. the DFI engine needs back pressure restriction otherwise you will see problems with the valves and such because of gunk buildup.. to get scientific with it, research the problems people are having/had with the audi/bmw DFI engines... the car runs rich at idle and not at speed... soot coming from the rich idle/low rpms'
i own my car too. but when i have a problem with my engine i do not wish to pull 15-20-25k out of pocket to have something fixed/replaced down the line... its not a matter of WHO owns the car.. its a matter of common sense. if you have so much money to toss around, why didn't you just step into a GT3/Turbo and get much more horsepower without any qualms?
for direct information from PCNA ask "mdrums" on here as he has gone over that with PCNA numerous times.. regarding the "at the cats" being the line drawn for liability.
also.. did you do a remapping of the ECU? the 997.2 cars are torque limited which means bolt on mods really do not change horsepower much because the engine is torque limited.. only changes are seen after remapping.
either way, not telling you how to live, just making you aware for if you have any problems in the future ;-),
11-01-2009, 08:34 PM
#6
Drifting
Thread Starter
For those seeking the very highest quality and performance, FVD is currently your only choice...and I looked long and hard. FVD/M&M is the racers choice, and in their world, hype doesn't cut it. It has to perform.
Those custom long tube headers make power across the full rev range. I originally asked for a full titanium system and they were willing to build it. But I choked on the quote!
and went with their existing package.
11-01-2009, 08:41 PM
#7
Nordschleife Master
very cool video by the way with the guages and G's displayed on the video... and like the interior too ;-) not your typical C4S "launch car" u see driving around in that grey, but a nice build to order with an interior that pops!
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11-01-2009, 08:57 PM
#8
Drifting
Thread Starter
i am not one of the people that live in fear of the warranty police, but with the large amount of issues they have had with the DFI engines i did do my homework to find out where the draw the line.. and they draw the line at the cats.. anything after the cat they couldn't care less about... anything before.. they will not accept warranty claims.. the DFI engine needs back pressure restriction otherwise you will see problems with the valves and such because of gunk buildup.. to get scientific with it, research the problems people are having/had with the audi/bmw DFI engines... the car runs rich at idle and not at speed... soot coming from the rich idle/low rpms'
i own my car too. but when i have a problem with my engine i do not wish to pull 15-20-25k out of pocket to have something fixed/replaced down the line... its not a matter of WHO owns the car.. its a matter of common sense. if you have so much money to toss around, why didn't you just step into a GT3/Turbo and get much more horsepower without any qualms?
for direct information from PCNA ask "mdrums" on here as he has gone over that with PCNA numerous times.. regarding the "at the cats" being the line drawn for liability.
also.. did you do a remapping of the ECU? the 997.2 cars are torque limited which means bolt on mods really do not change horsepower much because the engine is torque limited.. only changes are seen after remapping.
either way, not telling you how to live, just making you aware for if you have any problems in the future ;-),
i own my car too. but when i have a problem with my engine i do not wish to pull 15-20-25k out of pocket to have something fixed/replaced down the line... its not a matter of WHO owns the car.. its a matter of common sense. if you have so much money to toss around, why didn't you just step into a GT3/Turbo and get much more horsepower without any qualms?
for direct information from PCNA ask "mdrums" on here as he has gone over that with PCNA numerous times.. regarding the "at the cats" being the line drawn for liability.
also.. did you do a remapping of the ECU? the 997.2 cars are torque limited which means bolt on mods really do not change horsepower much because the engine is torque limited.. only changes are seen after remapping.
either way, not telling you how to live, just making you aware for if you have any problems in the future ;-),
(said with grin)But I again respectfully disagree that 997.2 engines "have large amount of issues". I believe the opposite to be true. I also call BS on this supposed carbon/gunk build up on valves on 997.2. Document one case for me on a 997.2 engine? It is simply internet falsehood.
I read the GIAC info and am aware of the supposed "torque limited" gains, and again, using a reliable tool (my DynoLicious- http://www.bunsentech.com/projects/dynolicious/), I measured across four runs, power increases. So, regardless of other claims, I know what I saw on my equipment with my eyes.
But as I noted in my original post, the ECU flash is happening soon
I have had IM's with MDrums and don't doubt his experience at the dealer. However, again, my dealer doesn't care. And I believe the possibility of random engine problems within the warranty period to be so low I don't really care about the risk of the dealer or Porsche denying a possible, imagined warranty claim. I simply don't consider it to be a likely possibility that I would ever have to make a claim.
The engines are strong and reliable, and my little tweaking is certainly not going to push the limits of reliability.
On the contrary, I would suggest good hard driving will keep the engine in better condition and running longer!
All said in the spirit of enthusiastic discussion!
Thank you for the kind comment regarding interior. It was a custom order obviously
Love it or hate it combo for sure. I still love it.
Last edited by savyboy; 11-01-2009 at 09:04 PM. Reason: fix grammar/clarify point
11-02-2009, 05:55 AM
#10
Rennlist Member
As you know, it is the system used at PSDS. I am thinking about putting it in the Boxster this winter as part of my build. MJones is a bug fan of it. Like him, I have used their Comparo software on Parallels/Mac w/o trouble.
11-02-2009, 08:28 AM
#11
Drifting
Thread Starter
Yes, I installed that as well (pretty easy really). If you go with their CAN adaptor for direct data aquisition via the vehical OBDII port, be SURE to specify their cig lighter power adaptor, not the direct connect ring terminal power cable. The cig adaptor has a port built in for the CAN adaptor and frees the only other USB port for thumbdrive duty.
Their website is not clear on this and I mis-ordered and had to rig a USP multi-port adaptor via a short USB cable and the looseness of these connections is what caused the video artifacts and occaisonal dta discrepancies. (they are sending me the "correct" cable BTW)
The guys there are very accessable, I made contact on Saturday morning. Very customer service oriented and all are racers I think. Good people.
11-02-2009, 11:01 AM
#12
Race Director
Great write up and video! The car sounds awesome and I bet even better in person. I hope you get your CEL issue fixed soon. However Riley is correct in that the engine warranty is void when you change out the headers/cats, and especially if you change the ECU programming the entire powertrain is void. The warranty is not with the dealer so it does not matter if the dealer is mod friendly or not. If you burn a piston for example due to incorrect fuel/air mixture the dealer will not pay to fix your car and certainly Porsche will not. I know I asked many detailed questions reguarding this and Porsche has seriously changed their stance on mod's with cars under warranty. However if you can afford a new engine or parts of one mod away!...I can't afford that risk.
One word about your alignment. Yes -1 is the most you can get with standard PASM up front. Sport PASM will allow -1.4 but you need to rethink your -2.5 camber in the rear. My understanding is you need to keep the camber from front to rear with in .5 of a degree. Actually you need more camber up front than in the rear. More rear camber like you have especially on a 4S will induce even more understeering (push) from the front. When I ran the stock suspension I ran around -1 front with .02 toe and -1.4 rear with .14 toe. With the GT3 Cup lower control arms I am now at -2 front and -1.8 rear. The car handles so much better this way. This with the small amount of toe works well on the street and track.
Best of luck and hope this helps.
One word about your alignment. Yes -1 is the most you can get with standard PASM up front. Sport PASM will allow -1.4 but you need to rethink your -2.5 camber in the rear. My understanding is you need to keep the camber from front to rear with in .5 of a degree. Actually you need more camber up front than in the rear. More rear camber like you have especially on a 4S will induce even more understeering (push) from the front. When I ran the stock suspension I ran around -1 front with .02 toe and -1.4 rear with .14 toe. With the GT3 Cup lower control arms I am now at -2 front and -1.8 rear. The car handles so much better this way. This with the small amount of toe works well on the street and track.
Best of luck and hope this helps.
11-02-2009, 01:47 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Nice write up and the set up certainly seems legit w/ regard to quality and performance. Unfortunately, my ***** are not as big as Porsche's, so I will have to stick w/ PSE.
