My 'about to buy a pcar' rant...
09-01-2009, 05:47 PM
#16
Why do you want a 911; and why a Cabrio? I'd suggest you start by defining what you really want out of the given car.
It seems to me you've got a head on your shoulders and you've looked at the real numbers to own a Porsche. Don't forget the insurance hit on younger drivers.
I think you'd be over the moon happy with driving a '95-98 993 coupe.
If you do go with any 996 or 997, get a CPO car from or through a dealer -- the extra $2000 will evaporate in a flash if the car has any problem.
If you prefer the 996, I'd suggest an '03 coupe.
If you think the '05 is appealing to get into an early 997, be careful.
If you like the idea of "stretching" into an '07, realize that you're catching a falling knife -- the already beaten down prices of '07 cars will look like top dollar spending as the discounted '08 and '09 cars push down.
I plan on putting away a couple of '97 C4S coupes for my two daughters for when they're old enough to drive. By which time, I full well expect to find 993's are insanely, unobtainably expensive "rare" "collectible" "special" Porsches.
My 8 year old can already drive PDK ... : )
I'd encourage you to put in the time and effort to get involved in the local PCA region. Get help there to identify trustworthy shops. Get a shop to inspect the car and they'll become the place to have the car maintained.
It seems to me you've got a head on your shoulders and you've looked at the real numbers to own a Porsche. Don't forget the insurance hit on younger drivers.
I think you'd be over the moon happy with driving a '95-98 993 coupe.
If you do go with any 996 or 997, get a CPO car from or through a dealer -- the extra $2000 will evaporate in a flash if the car has any problem.
If you prefer the 996, I'd suggest an '03 coupe.
If you think the '05 is appealing to get into an early 997, be careful.
If you like the idea of "stretching" into an '07, realize that you're catching a falling knife -- the already beaten down prices of '07 cars will look like top dollar spending as the discounted '08 and '09 cars push down.
I plan on putting away a couple of '97 C4S coupes for my two daughters for when they're old enough to drive. By which time, I full well expect to find 993's are insanely, unobtainably expensive "rare" "collectible" "special" Porsches.
My 8 year old can already drive PDK ... : )
I'd encourage you to put in the time and effort to get involved in the local PCA region. Get help there to identify trustworthy shops. Get a shop to inspect the car and they'll become the place to have the car maintained.
09-01-2009, 05:56 PM
#17
Here are some of my thoughts
-If you are going to buy a Porsche, buy the best/newest/fastest one you can afford and avoid any regrets. You decide what the best Porsche is for you.
-IMS failures are over amplified on chat forums. I have done a lot of research on this subject. Just yesterday I posted a lengthy thread on Renntrack.com in the 997 section that covers the basics and provides some links to some solutions (aftermarket IMS solutions that apparenty work great). The bottom line, dont let IMS issues stear you away from a gorgeous 996. Buying a 997 is not a solutions either, the beefier IMS's and IMS bearing did not show up in the M96/7 engine until MY06. And buying a post 05 car does not mean you wont have an IMS issue since the bearing is still flawed albeit beefy. This subject is rarely talked about more than, "buy a CPO'd car" which is a little sad and only adds to the amplified doom and gloom surrounding IMS failures. Check out my thread or do some research into LN engineering and there data.
All this being said the only way to avoid IMS issues is to buy a car without an IMS. In order to do this, you need to look at 996/7 TT's or GT3's or look into MY2009 or later Carerra's. All will have the chance of developing RMS issues...
Jason
-If you are going to buy a Porsche, buy the best/newest/fastest one you can afford and avoid any regrets. You decide what the best Porsche is for you.
-IMS failures are over amplified on chat forums. I have done a lot of research on this subject. Just yesterday I posted a lengthy thread on Renntrack.com in the 997 section that covers the basics and provides some links to some solutions (aftermarket IMS solutions that apparenty work great). The bottom line, dont let IMS issues stear you away from a gorgeous 996. Buying a 997 is not a solutions either, the beefier IMS's and IMS bearing did not show up in the M96/7 engine until MY06. And buying a post 05 car does not mean you wont have an IMS issue since the bearing is still flawed albeit beefy. This subject is rarely talked about more than, "buy a CPO'd car" which is a little sad and only adds to the amplified doom and gloom surrounding IMS failures. Check out my thread or do some research into LN engineering and there data.
All this being said the only way to avoid IMS issues is to buy a car without an IMS. In order to do this, you need to look at 996/7 TT's or GT3's or look into MY2009 or later Carerra's. All will have the chance of developing RMS issues...
Jason
09-01-2009, 06:53 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
Pay off your credit cards -- where else can you make 18-22% interest
right away.
Once they are wittled down to zero--buy a 997 from a private party with at least one year of warranty. In this time period, you should be able
to determine what, if anything, needs to be mechanically addressed,
under warranty.
Then, if you feel you should, buy an extended warranty.
If you buy from a Porsche dealer and it is a CPO, you are
certainly paying for the warranty. And you're not getting any
better car (could be worse) than you could buy from a one
owner private party. The savings can make a repair or
two when the factory warranty expires.
right away.
Once they are wittled down to zero--buy a 997 from a private party with at least one year of warranty. In this time period, you should be able
to determine what, if anything, needs to be mechanically addressed,
under warranty.
Then, if you feel you should, buy an extended warranty.
If you buy from a Porsche dealer and it is a CPO, you are
certainly paying for the warranty. And you're not getting any
better car (could be worse) than you could buy from a one
owner private party. The savings can make a repair or
two when the factory warranty expires.
09-01-2009, 07:18 PM
#19
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The insurance (which is a good point) is readily affordable, actually I am blown away at how inexpensive the insurance seems (Thank you USAA). I have about $2k in literal expendable (this is AFTER gas/food/utilities/house payment/girlfriend costs, long term savings, etc) a month... this to me sounds like I can afford a pcar. I just am fearful of buyers remorse. It's difficult to not be excited about getting the car that was on your wall when you were 7.
My gut hasn't allowed me to do anything stupid in this subject before, but I've been in the planning stages of getting a pcar for about 4 years, and am quite close to being there. Appreciate all the thoughts!
I hope nobody here that has a CC is paying 22%, I pay about 8%, and won't pay anything soon. I know it's stupid debt, I readily admit it, but will go ahead and blame the X-Wife for that, and the internal idiot that allowed myself to date a girl a continent away last year.
That said, it seems to me that a Turbo, while possibly more reliable (stronger engine, etc), is also much more expensive to repair (right?). I know this is not a cheap car to drive, so I don't have false hopes, but I also know that some of these will be much cheaper than others to drive, especially considering the total sum (maintenance, tires, repairs, and depreciation). I guess I get wound up by the pros and cons of each, which is why I bring the subject here and have solicited the advice in this post.
So, the reason I have flipped back and forth, actually the primary reason, is that I don't want to get screwed cash wise in the end. That leaves MANY options, and I have a good price point to work with, and have thus far stuck to my guns on it!
My gut hasn't allowed me to do anything stupid in this subject before, but I've been in the planning stages of getting a pcar for about 4 years, and am quite close to being there. Appreciate all the thoughts!
I hope nobody here that has a CC is paying 22%, I pay about 8%, and won't pay anything soon. I know it's stupid debt, I readily admit it, but will go ahead and blame the X-Wife for that, and the internal idiot that allowed myself to date a girl a continent away last year.
That said, it seems to me that a Turbo, while possibly more reliable (stronger engine, etc), is also much more expensive to repair (right?). I know this is not a cheap car to drive, so I don't have false hopes, but I also know that some of these will be much cheaper than others to drive, especially considering the total sum (maintenance, tires, repairs, and depreciation). I guess I get wound up by the pros and cons of each, which is why I bring the subject here and have solicited the advice in this post.
So, the reason I have flipped back and forth, actually the primary reason, is that I don't want to get screwed cash wise in the end. That leaves MANY options, and I have a good price point to work with, and have thus far stuck to my guns on it!
09-01-2009, 07:26 PM
#20
Three Wheelin'
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from my pov, the best car to buy is one that is 3 years into depreciation, in like-new condition, with a CPO or some type of extended warranty. let the person that drove it off the lot eat that early depreciation.
the "sweet spot" for a porsche right now is an '05 carrera S IMO. great price, great car, great reliability, current body style, yada yada.
you'll be able to drive the living tar out of it with very few worries. your only concern may be parking it at the cooter festival in allendale or getting a flat tire on your way to beaufort...
the "sweet spot" for a porsche right now is an '05 carrera S IMO. great price, great car, great reliability, current body style, yada yada.
you'll be able to drive the living tar out of it with very few worries. your only concern may be parking it at the cooter festival in allendale or getting a flat tire on your way to beaufort...
09-01-2009, 10:38 PM
#22
The insurance (which is a good point) is readily affordable, actually I am blown away at how inexpensive the insurance seems (Thank you USAA). I have about $2k in literal expendable (this is AFTER gas/food/utilities/house payment/girlfriend costs, long term savings, etc) a month... this to me sounds like I can afford a pcar. I just am fearful of buyers remorse. It's difficult to not be excited about getting the car that was on your wall when you were 7.
My gut hasn't allowed me to do anything stupid in this subject before, but I've been in the planning stages of getting a pcar for about 4 years, and am quite close to being there. Appreciate all the thoughts!
I hope nobody here that has a CC is paying 22%, I pay about 8%, and won't pay anything soon. I know it's stupid debt, I readily admit it, but will go ahead and blame the X-Wife for that, and the internal idiot that allowed myself to date a girl a continent away last year.
That said, it seems to me that a Turbo, while possibly more reliable (stronger engine, etc), is also much more expensive to repair (right?). I know this is not a cheap car to drive, so I don't have false hopes, but I also know that some of these will be much cheaper than others to drive, especially considering the total sum (maintenance, tires, repairs, and depreciation). I guess I get wound up by the pros and cons of each, which is why I bring the subject here and have solicited the advice in this post.
So, the reason I have flipped back and forth, actually the primary reason, is that I don't want to get screwed cash wise in the end. That leaves MANY options, and I have a good price point to work with, and have thus far stuck to my guns on it!
My gut hasn't allowed me to do anything stupid in this subject before, but I've been in the planning stages of getting a pcar for about 4 years, and am quite close to being there. Appreciate all the thoughts!
I hope nobody here that has a CC is paying 22%, I pay about 8%, and won't pay anything soon. I know it's stupid debt, I readily admit it, but will go ahead and blame the X-Wife for that, and the internal idiot that allowed myself to date a girl a continent away last year.
That said, it seems to me that a Turbo, while possibly more reliable (stronger engine, etc), is also much more expensive to repair (right?). I know this is not a cheap car to drive, so I don't have false hopes, but I also know that some of these will be much cheaper than others to drive, especially considering the total sum (maintenance, tires, repairs, and depreciation). I guess I get wound up by the pros and cons of each, which is why I bring the subject here and have solicited the advice in this post.
So, the reason I have flipped back and forth, actually the primary reason, is that I don't want to get screwed cash wise in the end. That leaves MANY options, and I have a good price point to work with, and have thus far stuck to my guns on it!
Jason
09-01-2009, 11:04 PM
#23
Three Wheelin'
You're only 27 - plenty of other cars in you future - don't worry about it so much. Or maybe consider a short lease - then if you don't like it, no worries at all; turn it in when you're done and move on - just don't even think about getting out of the lease early.
09-01-2009, 11:25 PM
#24
If I was in your shoes I'd definitely be looking at 993 cabs. The 993 cabs are cheaper than the 993 coupes. I believe you can find a nice one for $25- $29k. Plus, on top of a relatively cheap buy in, the depreciation will be near zero. Hard to beat that with a stick.
Start shopping now, pay off the cc's, and when a nice cab shows up you'll be ready to jump. GL
Phil
Start shopping now, pay off the cc's, and when a nice cab shows up you'll be ready to jump. GL
Phil
09-01-2009, 11:36 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
...and a 993 still looks as cool as anything.
09-01-2009, 11:47 PM
#26
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The 996 TT is the bargain of the century right now. Get one in the 45K range and you wont lose too much. The car is reliable and just a hoot to drive. I think thats the ticket. Then as you get more money buy a newer one later.
Either that or a NEW Cayman.
Either that or a NEW Cayman.
09-01-2009, 11:51 PM
#27
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A lot of good advice here. I wanted a Porsche from birth but waited until I felt really comfortable making the leap (zero credit card debt, mortgage well beneath my means, etc.), and it took me 18 cars to get there. :-) I'm 31 and have never had parents funding my car obsession, so I think we're in the same boat.
Steve above recommended the 993, which I'm crazy about and really wanted, but had concerns about buying a 10 year-old car out of warranty. I honestly think you should pass on the 996s...they just didn't feel right to me when I looked, especially the interior quality. This economy is prime for Porsche shopping, as I just got a flawless, well-equipped 2006 Carrera S Coupe with 9000 miles for $49K...and it has a year left of factory warranty. I'll probably swap it for a newer model when that's up in a year. In shopping around, I saw plenty of 997 Cabrios with reasonable mileage in the $45-50K range. Just be flexible in where you're shopping, as I got mine in SoCal where they are a dime a dozen and prices were really soft. If what you want is just out of reach, I'd stick it out with the MR2 until you can make the Carrera jump rather than spending good money on an interim Boxster and then a Carrera. Just my $.02 having been through that same debate in the last few years.
Good luck, and I guarantee that the car will live up to your expectations when you find the right one!
Steve above recommended the 993, which I'm crazy about and really wanted, but had concerns about buying a 10 year-old car out of warranty. I honestly think you should pass on the 996s...they just didn't feel right to me when I looked, especially the interior quality. This economy is prime for Porsche shopping, as I just got a flawless, well-equipped 2006 Carrera S Coupe with 9000 miles for $49K...and it has a year left of factory warranty. I'll probably swap it for a newer model when that's up in a year. In shopping around, I saw plenty of 997 Cabrios with reasonable mileage in the $45-50K range. Just be flexible in where you're shopping, as I got mine in SoCal where they are a dime a dozen and prices were really soft. If what you want is just out of reach, I'd stick it out with the MR2 until you can make the Carrera jump rather than spending good money on an interim Boxster and then a Carrera. Just my $.02 having been through that same debate in the last few years.
Good luck, and I guarantee that the car will live up to your expectations when you find the right one!
09-02-2009, 01:23 AM
#28
Track Day
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The insurance (which is a good point) is readily affordable, actually I am blown away at how inexpensive the insurance seems (Thank you USAA). I have about $2k in literal expendable (this is AFTER gas/food/utilities/house payment/girlfriend costs, long term savings, etc) a month... this to me sounds like I can afford a pcar. I just am fearful of buyers remorse. It's difficult to not be excited about getting the car that was on your wall when you were 7.
My gut hasn't allowed me to do anything stupid in this subject before, but I've been in the planning stages of getting a pcar for about 4 years, and am quite close to being there. Appreciate all the thoughts!
I hope nobody here that has a CC is paying 22%, I pay about 8%, and won't pay anything soon. I know it's stupid debt, I readily admit it, but will go ahead and blame the X-Wife for that, and the internal idiot that allowed myself to date a girl a continent away last year.
That said, it seems to me that a Turbo, while possibly more reliable (stronger engine, etc), is also much more expensive to repair (right?). I know this is not a cheap car to drive, so I don't have false hopes, but I also know that some of these will be much cheaper than others to drive, especially considering the total sum (maintenance, tires, repairs, and depreciation). I guess I get wound up by the pros and cons of each, which is why I bring the subject here and have solicited the advice in this post.
So, the reason I have flipped back and forth, actually the primary reason, is that I don't want to get screwed cash wise in the end. That leaves MANY options, and I have a good price point to work with, and have thus far stuck to my guns on it!
My gut hasn't allowed me to do anything stupid in this subject before, but I've been in the planning stages of getting a pcar for about 4 years, and am quite close to being there. Appreciate all the thoughts!
I hope nobody here that has a CC is paying 22%, I pay about 8%, and won't pay anything soon. I know it's stupid debt, I readily admit it, but will go ahead and blame the X-Wife for that, and the internal idiot that allowed myself to date a girl a continent away last year.
That said, it seems to me that a Turbo, while possibly more reliable (stronger engine, etc), is also much more expensive to repair (right?). I know this is not a cheap car to drive, so I don't have false hopes, but I also know that some of these will be much cheaper than others to drive, especially considering the total sum (maintenance, tires, repairs, and depreciation). I guess I get wound up by the pros and cons of each, which is why I bring the subject here and have solicited the advice in this post.
So, the reason I have flipped back and forth, actually the primary reason, is that I don't want to get screwed cash wise in the end. That leaves MANY options, and I have a good price point to work with, and have thus far stuck to my guns on it!
09-02-2009, 01:25 AM
#29
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There are definitely several ways to go. The 993 suggestion will definitely be considered, even the 964s it seems can be very nice cars and very reasonably priced. Again I appreciate all the advice, it'll happen, but my generation isn't exactly famous for its patience level, and I am no exception.
My ruleset has evolved. Brief history:
Convertible, no black interior
then decided a boxster wasn't the car on my wall when I was 6, so...
911 Convertible, no black interior
then I discovered IMS issues, repair costs for a $25k car, etc
Convertible, no black interior, 997 with a warranty
then I nearly bought a car, until Nugget bailed me out... Almost went tip, I know, I know, but tips are 10k cheaper.
Convertible, no black interior, MANUAL, 997 with a warranty
Discovered the turbos, something I didn't previously believe I had the option of, so
Convertible, no black interior, MANUAL, 997 with a warranty... Or a Turbo
and then I just got frustrated. It was too much to look at. Now that becomes...
Convertible, no black interior, MANUAL, 997 with a warranty or a 993 or a 964 that looks good / passes a decent inspection, etc.
What's amazing to me is that each of the four cars above (964, 993, 996 Turbo, 997 Cab) can range in price as much as they can. I sort of understand the 993s, but some of the dealers are freakin insane. The 996 cab, no matter the miles, will never be a sought after car in the 'collector' sense. Same goes for a 997. If an '06 997 has 4k miles, you cannot price it at 65k. You can get a NEWER CAR for that. There are 08 Cabs out there for 70 even. There are brand new cars right now that can be had basically at invoice, etc.
I also have a HUGE advantage when it comes to private sellers. GA doesn't charge us sales tax if we buy from a private seller, and 7% is 7%. So that further widens the gap for me when it comes to a dealer. If a dealer has a 40k car that gets a 2k cpo and further marks it up another 2k for a 44k car, add 3k for tax. 47k. Same car private seller is 40k, which is a LOT different.
Dang, I ranted again.
Again thanks all, some of your insights have been most helpful.
My ruleset has evolved. Brief history:
Convertible, no black interior
then decided a boxster wasn't the car on my wall when I was 6, so...
911 Convertible, no black interior
then I discovered IMS issues, repair costs for a $25k car, etc
Convertible, no black interior, 997 with a warranty
then I nearly bought a car, until Nugget bailed me out... Almost went tip, I know, I know, but tips are 10k cheaper.
Convertible, no black interior, MANUAL, 997 with a warranty
Discovered the turbos, something I didn't previously believe I had the option of, so
Convertible, no black interior, MANUAL, 997 with a warranty... Or a Turbo
and then I just got frustrated. It was too much to look at. Now that becomes...
Convertible, no black interior, MANUAL, 997 with a warranty or a 993 or a 964 that looks good / passes a decent inspection, etc.
What's amazing to me is that each of the four cars above (964, 993, 996 Turbo, 997 Cab) can range in price as much as they can. I sort of understand the 993s, but some of the dealers are freakin insane. The 996 cab, no matter the miles, will never be a sought after car in the 'collector' sense. Same goes for a 997. If an '06 997 has 4k miles, you cannot price it at 65k. You can get a NEWER CAR for that. There are 08 Cabs out there for 70 even. There are brand new cars right now that can be had basically at invoice, etc.
I also have a HUGE advantage when it comes to private sellers. GA doesn't charge us sales tax if we buy from a private seller, and 7% is 7%. So that further widens the gap for me when it comes to a dealer. If a dealer has a 40k car that gets a 2k cpo and further marks it up another 2k for a 44k car, add 3k for tax. 47k. Same car private seller is 40k, which is a LOT different.
Dang, I ranted again.
Again thanks all, some of your insights have been most helpful.
09-02-2009, 01:44 AM
#30
There are definitely several ways to go. The 993 suggestion will definitely be considered, even the 964s it seems can be very nice cars and very reasonably priced. Again I appreciate all the advice, it'll happen, but my generation isn't exactly famous for its patience level, and I am no exception.
My ruleset has evolved. Brief history:
Convertible, no black interior
then decided a boxster wasn't the car on my wall when I was 6, so...
911 Convertible, no black interior
then I discovered IMS issues, repair costs for a $25k car, etc
Convertible, no black interior, 997 with a warranty
then I nearly bought a car, until Nugget bailed me out... Almost went tip, I know, I know, but tips are 10k cheaper.
Convertible, no black interior, MANUAL, 997 with a warranty
Discovered the turbos, something I didn't previously believe I had the option of, so
Convertible, no black interior, MANUAL, 997 with a warranty... Or a Turbo
and then I just got frustrated. It was too much to look at. Now that becomes...
Convertible, no black interior, MANUAL, 997 with a warranty or a 993 or a 964 that looks good / passes a decent inspection, etc.
What's amazing to me is that each of the four cars above (964, 993, 996 Turbo, 997 Cab) can range in price as much as they can. I sort of understand the 993s, but some of the dealers are freakin insane. The 996 cab, no matter the miles, will never be a sought after car in the 'collector' sense. Same goes for a 997. If an '06 997 has 4k miles, you cannot price it at 65k. You can get a NEWER CAR for that. There are 08 Cabs out there for 70 even. There are brand new cars right now that can be had basically at invoice, etc.
I also have a HUGE advantage when it comes to private sellers. GA doesn't charge us sales tax if we buy from a private seller, and 7% is 7%. So that further widens the gap for me when it comes to a dealer. If a dealer has a 40k car that gets a 2k cpo and further marks it up another 2k for a 44k car, add 3k for tax. 47k. Same car private seller is 40k, which is a LOT different.
Dang, I ranted again.
Again thanks all, some of your insights have been most helpful.
My ruleset has evolved. Brief history:
Convertible, no black interior
then decided a boxster wasn't the car on my wall when I was 6, so...
911 Convertible, no black interior
then I discovered IMS issues, repair costs for a $25k car, etc
Convertible, no black interior, 997 with a warranty
then I nearly bought a car, until Nugget bailed me out... Almost went tip, I know, I know, but tips are 10k cheaper.
Convertible, no black interior, MANUAL, 997 with a warranty
Discovered the turbos, something I didn't previously believe I had the option of, so
Convertible, no black interior, MANUAL, 997 with a warranty... Or a Turbo
and then I just got frustrated. It was too much to look at. Now that becomes...
Convertible, no black interior, MANUAL, 997 with a warranty or a 993 or a 964 that looks good / passes a decent inspection, etc.
What's amazing to me is that each of the four cars above (964, 993, 996 Turbo, 997 Cab) can range in price as much as they can. I sort of understand the 993s, but some of the dealers are freakin insane. The 996 cab, no matter the miles, will never be a sought after car in the 'collector' sense. Same goes for a 997. If an '06 997 has 4k miles, you cannot price it at 65k. You can get a NEWER CAR for that. There are 08 Cabs out there for 70 even. There are brand new cars right now that can be had basically at invoice, etc.
I also have a HUGE advantage when it comes to private sellers. GA doesn't charge us sales tax if we buy from a private seller, and 7% is 7%. So that further widens the gap for me when it comes to a dealer. If a dealer has a 40k car that gets a 2k cpo and further marks it up another 2k for a 44k car, add 3k for tax. 47k. Same car private seller is 40k, which is a LOT different.
Dang, I ranted again.
Again thanks all, some of your insights have been most helpful.
I'd suggest you jettison the cabrio idea until you've had time with the coupe. Likewise the Turbo variants -- until you've learned to drive and developed a taste for "in extremis" performance, the Turbo is overkill.
I'd still steer you towards a 993 (not a 964 unless you drive a very tidy RS America and really develop a preference) but I have to balance out your age and your lifestyle from what you've posted about yourself along with the advice in this thead, which steers towards something like an '05 997 Carrera. This is a car that's "huge" by 993 standards (in horsepower, dimensions and to some extent curb weight) but it drives like a 911, it's appealing to the eye and it has the street cred of a current model 911.) If I could relive my 20's, I wish I had the sense to not pour money into a decade of V8 and turbo hot rod hill-climb "shock and awe" cars and instead just go straight to a 911 and keep the car and learn to drive ... better car, more fun, less wasted "churn" going from "this" to "that" and around and around.