997 S Performance Mods
06-18-2009, 01:49 PM
#17
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I have the evo v-flow on my 05 so I can give you a little input...
I did the evo mufflers, ecu flash and intake at the same time. I wasn't expecting much increase on the HP side, just wanted a more aggressive sound and better looking exhaust tips. Frankly that's what I got. I didn't notice any power increases by the seat of the pants - but the engine sound opened up a bit - and sounds much better to me. The v-flow gives the engine a deeper, throaty sound - and that's probably it - I suspect if you put this on a dyno and ran some runs at temperature, you would be disappointed.
A bit later I added headers, and I did "feel" a performance change - and based on the stock header construction I can see the restriction in the design. I have no Dyno results to prove anything - so It may have been in my head.
Eventually I'll throw some high flow cats on here and put it on a dyno...
I did the evo mufflers, ecu flash and intake at the same time. I wasn't expecting much increase on the HP side, just wanted a more aggressive sound and better looking exhaust tips. Frankly that's what I got. I didn't notice any power increases by the seat of the pants - but the engine sound opened up a bit - and sounds much better to me. The v-flow gives the engine a deeper, throaty sound - and that's probably it - I suspect if you put this on a dyno and ran some runs at temperature, you would be disappointed.
A bit later I added headers, and I did "feel" a performance change - and based on the stock header construction I can see the restriction in the design. I have no Dyno results to prove anything - so It may have been in my head.
Eventually I'll throw some high flow cats on here and put it on a dyno...
06-18-2009, 02:06 PM
#18
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here's the reality (truth is a more exotic concept and beyond the scope of this Forum);
yes an engine is an "air pump". but don't let that fool you. it is an air pump from the front (the intake inlet) to the back (exhaust tip). it will only "pump" as fast as the choke point can pass. for most cars, this is the valves. this here air pump at 6000 rpm is cycling completely at 50 freaking times a second!!! passing, sit down here, 190 liters of air each tick.
don't know about you, but it boggles my mind.
the German elves have an enormous budget and have tested every freaking combination of size and length tube, inlet, outlet, injector and venturi you can imagine. they play with them on calibrated dynos, wind tunnels and tracks all day, all week (albeit a 34 hr week) all month and all year.
no wiseguy with a CNC and a garage has a chance of matching their facilities or expertise.
plus, they make it work; harmoniously, reliably and reproducibly in a way the "tuners" can only dream of.
in short, leave it the f*** alone. sad to say, YOU are the slowest moving part.
if you change on part in the chain, you (and your tuner Buddy) have no idea if you made it better, worse or about the same. human nature is to "feel" as though it's better. shop dynos lie, whether or not they are intentionally set up to do so.
take driving lessions, you will be MUCH faster and feel MUCH better since you can translate it to every car you'll ever drive.
yes an engine is an "air pump". but don't let that fool you. it is an air pump from the front (the intake inlet) to the back (exhaust tip). it will only "pump" as fast as the choke point can pass. for most cars, this is the valves. this here air pump at 6000 rpm is cycling completely at 50 freaking times a second!!! passing, sit down here, 190 liters of air each tick.
don't know about you, but it boggles my mind.
the German elves have an enormous budget and have tested every freaking combination of size and length tube, inlet, outlet, injector and venturi you can imagine. they play with them on calibrated dynos, wind tunnels and tracks all day, all week (albeit a 34 hr week) all month and all year.
no wiseguy with a CNC and a garage has a chance of matching their facilities or expertise.
plus, they make it work; harmoniously, reliably and reproducibly in a way the "tuners" can only dream of.
in short, leave it the f*** alone. sad to say, YOU are the slowest moving part.
if you change on part in the chain, you (and your tuner Buddy) have no idea if you made it better, worse or about the same. human nature is to "feel" as though it's better. shop dynos lie, whether or not they are intentionally set up to do so.
take driving lessions, you will be MUCH faster and feel MUCH better since you can translate it to every car you'll ever drive.
06-18-2009, 02:14 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
It's a perceived difference. I went from a stock 996 engine to an x51 and didn't notice any difference, mind you, I am referring to normal driving conditions. On the other hand, if I was to take the vehicle to its top end, something that I can't see being a possibility, I am sure the car will top out at a possible 180 mph. In addition, when I tracked the car, there was no discernible change until I modified the suspension. The plain fact is that we want to know that we have improved the performance of our cars when we spend thousands of dollars on intake and exhaust mods.
06-18-2009, 02:24 PM
#20
It's a perceived difference. I went from a stock 996 engine to an x51 and didn't notice any difference, mind you, I am referring to normal driving conditions. On the other hand, if I was to take the vehicle to its top end, something that I can't see being a possibility, I am sure the car will top out at a possible 180 mph. In addition, when I tracked the car, there was no discernible change until I modified the suspension. The plain fact is that we want to know that we have improved the performance of our cars when we spend thousands of dollars on intake and exhaust mods.
You need to recalibrate your butt dyno..
Dave
06-18-2009, 02:38 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
1) don't doubt you may have "felt" it
2) got a Franklin in my pocket (a crisp new one at that) that says you didn't get it with that set up (sorry). i've had this bet with others (including tuners), and so far, Ben has stayed put. best i've ever seen was about 22 HP on a dyno that didn't even use the same correction factors pre and post.
3) you need at least 10 and more likely 15-20% boost in real power to actually feel it in all but the most flat out circumstances.
as several here, been there and done that.
sharp old shop mechanics will tell you that if you just change the seating position a bit (up) most owners will claim they "feel" the car is running better. you'd need a very calibrated butt indeed to tell me that in a ~350 HP car you could actually feel 25 crank HP. a Miata, yes, a 911S, nope.
Ron CT? well he had a re-flash and ran at the track. i can't comment, i wasn't there. Show us the dyno.
don't mean to be antagonistic, just sayin'...
2) got a Franklin in my pocket (a crisp new one at that) that says you didn't get it with that set up (sorry). i've had this bet with others (including tuners), and so far, Ben has stayed put. best i've ever seen was about 22 HP on a dyno that didn't even use the same correction factors pre and post.
3) you need at least 10 and more likely 15-20% boost in real power to actually feel it in all but the most flat out circumstances.
as several here, been there and done that.
sharp old shop mechanics will tell you that if you just change the seating position a bit (up) most owners will claim they "feel" the car is running better. you'd need a very calibrated butt indeed to tell me that in a ~350 HP car you could actually feel 25 crank HP. a Miata, yes, a 911S, nope.
Ron CT? well he had a re-flash and ran at the track. i can't comment, i wasn't there. Show us the dyno.
don't mean to be antagonistic, just sayin'...
06-18-2009, 02:59 PM
#22
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1) don't doubt you may have "felt" it
2) got a Franklin in my pocket (a crisp new one at that) that says you didn't get it with that set up (sorry). i've had this bet with others (including tuners), and so far, Ben has stayed put. best i've ever seen was about 22 HP on a dyno that didn't even use the same correction factors pre and post.
3) you need at least 10 and more likely 15-20% boost in real power to actually feel it in all but the most flat out circumstances.
as several here, been there and done that.
sharp old shop mechanics will tell you that if you just change the seating position a bit (up) most owners will claim they "feel" the car is running better. you'd need a very calibrated butt indeed to tell me that in a ~350 HP car you could actually feel 25 crank HP. a Miata, yes, a 911S, nope.
Ron CT? well he had a re-flash and ran at the track. i can't comment, i wasn't there. Show us the dyno.
don't mean to be antagonistic, just sayin'...
2) got a Franklin in my pocket (a crisp new one at that) that says you didn't get it with that set up (sorry). i've had this bet with others (including tuners), and so far, Ben has stayed put. best i've ever seen was about 22 HP on a dyno that didn't even use the same correction factors pre and post.
3) you need at least 10 and more likely 15-20% boost in real power to actually feel it in all but the most flat out circumstances.
as several here, been there and done that.
sharp old shop mechanics will tell you that if you just change the seating position a bit (up) most owners will claim they "feel" the car is running better. you'd need a very calibrated butt indeed to tell me that in a ~350 HP car you could actually feel 25 crank HP. a Miata, yes, a 911S, nope.
Ron CT? well he had a re-flash and ran at the track. i can't comment, i wasn't there. Show us the dyno.
don't mean to be antagonistic, just sayin'...
06-18-2009, 03:02 PM
#23
Nordschleife Master
06-18-2009, 05:28 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
06-18-2009, 06:12 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
Serapis, I have done every N/A mod in the book to my 99 996. The GIAC flash was done by Sharkwerks. I love the sound of the EVO cold air induction system...the sound alone is worth the price. The RSS Plenum shifts the power up a little higher in the RPM range, so it feels faster. The sound of the EVO intake and a nice full exhaust system definately improves the character of the car. For a while, I had two nearly identical 99 996 Porsches. I took all the mods off my tiptronic car prior to selling it. The modified 6-speed car was way more fun to drive, than the stock tiptronic car. My wife preferred the stock tiptronic car, because it was quieter.
If you ever want to experience the mods on a 996, prior to buying them...you are welcome to take mine for a spin. I am in the Sacramento area.
If you ever want to experience the mods on a 996, prior to buying them...you are welcome to take mine for a spin. I am in the Sacramento area.
06-18-2009, 08:12 PM
#27
Moderator
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by allegretto
Ron CT? well he had a re-flash and ran at the track. i can't comment, i wasn't there. Show us the dyno.
06-18-2009, 09:02 PM
#28
1) don't doubt you may have "felt" it
2) got a Franklin in my pocket (a crisp new one at that) that says you didn't get it with that set up (sorry). i've had this bet with others (including tuners), and so far, Ben has stayed put. best i've ever seen was about 22 HP on a dyno that didn't even use the same correction factors pre and post.
3) you need at least 10 and more likely 15-20% boost in real power to actually feel it in all but the most flat out circumstances.
as several here, been there and done that.
sharp old shop mechanics will tell you that if you just change the seating position a bit (up) most owners will claim they "feel" the car is running better. you'd need a very calibrated butt indeed to tell me that in a ~350 HP car you could actually feel 25 crank HP. a Miata, yes, a 911S, nope.
Ron CT? well he had a re-flash and ran at the track. i can't comment, i wasn't there. Show us the dyno.
don't mean to be antagonistic, just sayin'...
2) got a Franklin in my pocket (a crisp new one at that) that says you didn't get it with that set up (sorry). i've had this bet with others (including tuners), and so far, Ben has stayed put. best i've ever seen was about 22 HP on a dyno that didn't even use the same correction factors pre and post.
3) you need at least 10 and more likely 15-20% boost in real power to actually feel it in all but the most flat out circumstances.
as several here, been there and done that.
sharp old shop mechanics will tell you that if you just change the seating position a bit (up) most owners will claim they "feel" the car is running better. you'd need a very calibrated butt indeed to tell me that in a ~350 HP car you could actually feel 25 crank HP. a Miata, yes, a 911S, nope.
Ron CT? well he had a re-flash and ran at the track. i can't comment, i wasn't there. Show us the dyno.
don't mean to be antagonistic, just sayin'...
So I guess in your eyes me and Ron are just full of **** and we don't know what we are talking about......do I got it right?
I'm done with this thread...you can lead a horse to water, but you will never make him drink.
06-18-2009, 10:28 PM
#29
Nordschleife Master
I don't do dynos. I do my research, talk with guys like Dan Jacobs and fellow track-junkies, and prepare my car. Having been running in Black/Red for a while and knowing my cars and having consistent data to analyze, I know when there's more performance not only from the feel of the car, but also my performance relative to my fellow drivers. When I do a modification and I'm now pulling on other cars that used to be equal, and the TraqMate data shows higher levels of acceleration than ever before, then I'm convinced that my butt-dyno is correct.
my comment about "i wasn't there" was meant for you. really, i wasn't there, how could i know about your times? but the track is where it's at, so don't be offended.
K?
06-18-2009, 10:33 PM
#30
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Guys I really appreciate all your input. I already have a few driving schools under my belt. Prior to this 997 S I was driving a "07 Corvette. That's why I was kind of hoping to up the acceleration on the Porsche. However, the Vette drives nowhere near as nice as the Porsche.