997.2 C4S On Track
05-26-2009 | 04:08 PM
#16
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Posted this the other day in Racing / DE. Had a great 1st track experience at Monticello in NY in my new 09 C2S. Wanted to add to your "data base" of information, Bob, though I edited / shortened it for this thread.
+ + +
Man am I beat - tired, sore, etc. Despite the short run groups, I had a real work out.
I was posting speeds in the 140s on the back straight. The killer is the 90 degree flat turn, so entry speed is very limited. Flat out from either 2nd or 3rd up to 5th was a little unsettling at the slight kink 2/3 up the straight. Another unsettling spot was 21, flat out was downright hairy there because of the off-camber. Tried various approaches and none felt great. But the car held, so I can't really complain. Track map suggested to brake before 20, but I didn't find the need. I was surprised at how fast we could take the straight between 5 and 6 - diving straight and then into the "cheese grater" switch back. Man, was the pavement disintegrating right under our cars. I came in early last session of day 2 because not only was I sliding as the pavement crumbled, but cars in front of me were spraying tiny bituminous chips.
The new car was bone stock with dealer provided alignment of about -1.1 degrees of camber. Understeered like crazy. OEM 19" Porsche N Rated "Faux" PSC tires were decent (and now shot - fronts are toast), but the R888s going on should be better. Will have Dan put on some GT3 control arms and get me to about -2.3 for a street / DE alignment. Felt great though - looking forward to The Glen in June.
The kink at the end of the long straight didn't bother me any - kind of found it interesting and keeps you on your toes. Ended up going from curb entering and over both apex curbs. Was very interesting when cresting that blind spot and I found a yellow GT3 sitting in the dirt right in front of me - Flick left, jump the curb, and away thinking "wow, bad place to park". What I didn't like about this sequence was the heel-toe rising up the hill before the kink. 5th to 4th to 3rd to 2nd (on the hill) was a real work-out. Man, you can brake very late there even at 150.
Saw lots of different theories on how to take 13 and 14. I was doing more of a modified "V" - pretty much entering / braking fairly straight, making a turn to the right, then powering through the apex of 14. Really liked that sequence coming out of the carousel and it was cool to watch cars right in front of me taking it 3 different ways. Also, entering the start of the Carousel sequence, into turn 9 was interesting - similar theory, pretty much straight and braking, then release and turn toward 10. That's the beauty of a new track - we're all hunting for our best way through it.
Didn't have my traqmate set up yet, but finally bothered to put my camera in for the last session. I only took 3 laps before coming in because my new car was getting trashed from all of the disintegrating pavement (top course was just paved 2 weeks ago - I see some concrete in this track's future). All were in traffic, but still had some fun laps. The camera says high 2:40s and low 2:50s for lap times. Same track length as Watkins Glen, but WAY slower overall thanks to the 3 tight corners that push you down to about 40 MPH.
My son and I also enjoyed the variety. Some very technical areas of the track. Can't get into a rhythm...
+ + +
Basically, engine was super strong, smooth, and revved easier than I remember my 07. New Sport PASM was fantastic - much better than I expected, especially when on Sport (tried normal first, then sport). Brakes were fine and I wonder if the added cooling of the new front design helped. Had some issues with the e-gas / throttle linkage being "slow" to respond. Had to change my Heel / Toe a bit.
+ + +
Man am I beat - tired, sore, etc. Despite the short run groups, I had a real work out.
I was posting speeds in the 140s on the back straight. The killer is the 90 degree flat turn, so entry speed is very limited. Flat out from either 2nd or 3rd up to 5th was a little unsettling at the slight kink 2/3 up the straight. Another unsettling spot was 21, flat out was downright hairy there because of the off-camber. Tried various approaches and none felt great. But the car held, so I can't really complain. Track map suggested to brake before 20, but I didn't find the need. I was surprised at how fast we could take the straight between 5 and 6 - diving straight and then into the "cheese grater" switch back. Man, was the pavement disintegrating right under our cars. I came in early last session of day 2 because not only was I sliding as the pavement crumbled, but cars in front of me were spraying tiny bituminous chips.
The new car was bone stock with dealer provided alignment of about -1.1 degrees of camber. Understeered like crazy. OEM 19" Porsche N Rated "Faux" PSC tires were decent (and now shot - fronts are toast), but the R888s going on should be better. Will have Dan put on some GT3 control arms and get me to about -2.3 for a street / DE alignment. Felt great though - looking forward to The Glen in June.
The kink at the end of the long straight didn't bother me any - kind of found it interesting and keeps you on your toes. Ended up going from curb entering and over both apex curbs. Was very interesting when cresting that blind spot and I found a yellow GT3 sitting in the dirt right in front of me - Flick left, jump the curb, and away thinking "wow, bad place to park". What I didn't like about this sequence was the heel-toe rising up the hill before the kink. 5th to 4th to 3rd to 2nd (on the hill) was a real work-out. Man, you can brake very late there even at 150.
Saw lots of different theories on how to take 13 and 14. I was doing more of a modified "V" - pretty much entering / braking fairly straight, making a turn to the right, then powering through the apex of 14. Really liked that sequence coming out of the carousel and it was cool to watch cars right in front of me taking it 3 different ways. Also, entering the start of the Carousel sequence, into turn 9 was interesting - similar theory, pretty much straight and braking, then release and turn toward 10. That's the beauty of a new track - we're all hunting for our best way through it.
Didn't have my traqmate set up yet, but finally bothered to put my camera in for the last session. I only took 3 laps before coming in because my new car was getting trashed from all of the disintegrating pavement (top course was just paved 2 weeks ago - I see some concrete in this track's future). All were in traffic, but still had some fun laps. The camera says high 2:40s and low 2:50s for lap times. Same track length as Watkins Glen, but WAY slower overall thanks to the 3 tight corners that push you down to about 40 MPH.
My son and I also enjoyed the variety. Some very technical areas of the track. Can't get into a rhythm...
+ + +
Basically, engine was super strong, smooth, and revved easier than I remember my 07. New Sport PASM was fantastic - much better than I expected, especially when on Sport (tried normal first, then sport). Brakes were fine and I wonder if the added cooling of the new front design helped. Had some issues with the e-gas / throttle linkage being "slow" to respond. Had to change my Heel / Toe a bit.
05-26-2009 | 08:05 PM
#17
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Joined: Mar 2006
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From: in a happy place
my 06 C4S also handled better than it felt. the AWD made it feel "heavy" and i had to use brakes and wheel for rotation, but it did stick and could be wrestled into the line. but i never really felt comfortable with the feel. im hoping my C2S is more tossable, we'll see soon! it is a Cab of course, so...???
Ron CT,who's wheels are those? MUST get some,they rock!!!
Ron CT,who's wheels are those? MUST get some,they rock!!!
05-26-2009 | 09:36 PM
#18
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From: Montreal
The 09 with sport PASM handles better than the 06s I have driven (student cars). The 4S steering is heavy compared to my RS but AWD hardware, extra weight and stock alignment - as opposed to zero toe account for it. But the car does turn in with less understeer than I expected and I suspect some negative camber and less toe in might cure it.
05-26-2009 | 10:34 PM
#19
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Wheels are Volk TE37, made by Rays Wheels (one of the largest wheel companies in the world). Monoblock forged, very light, very strong.
I thought these photos gave a good impression of the suspension action on the track.
I thought these photos gave a good impression of the suspension action on the track.
05-27-2009 | 11:11 AM
#23
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From: Tampa
I do not find SPORT PASM to be too stiff at all on the street and I feel the Sport PASM settings should be the stock PASM suspension and that SPORT PASM should give us even greater stiffness. Porsche has really made these cars soft through out the years and less sporting.
05-27-2009 | 12:12 PM
#24
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From: From 60607 in 06840
I got front wheel lift with standard PASM too. Actually I could use the suspension to be a little stiffer...not to stiff because Sebring is a very bumpy course especially in turn 1 and 17. I have not had the car on a smooth track yet but I imagine an even stiffer suspension would be better.
I do not find SPORT PASM to be too stiff at all on the street and I feel the Sport PASM settings should be the stock PASM suspension and that SPORT PASM should give us even greater stiffness. Porsche has really made these cars soft through out the years and less sporting.
I do not find SPORT PASM to be too stiff at all on the street and I feel the Sport PASM settings should be the stock PASM suspension and that SPORT PASM should give us even greater stiffness. Porsche has really made these cars soft through out the years and less sporting.
They will become lifeless characterless VW/Audi crap.
05-27-2009 | 10:05 PM
#26
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 116
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From: Estoril
my 06 C4S also handled better than it felt. the AWD made it feel "heavy" and i had to use brakes and wheel for rotation, but it did stick and could be wrestled into the line. but i never really felt comfortable with the feel. im hoping my C2S is more tossable, we'll see soon! it is a Cab of course, so...???
I also plan to take my Cab to track, as soon as I got it.
J.Seven
05-27-2009 | 10:06 PM
#27
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Joined: Apr 2009
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From: Estoril
Break-in finally finished, I took the 4S to the track this weekend. The car has Sport PASM, PSE, Sport Chrono Plus and PDK.
Steering is heavier than my RS but to my surprise the car does not understeer a lot. entry to slow corners meets the usual 911 resistance but accelerating out from the apex the car goes where it is pointed. I wonder if this is due to the AWD system? In any event, I was pleased with the box stock handling.
Note stock tires, alignment, brakes - i.e., as delivered.
With sport PASM set to firm, the car has little body roll, not quite as flat as the RS but stiff enough that quick transitions as in the 2nd gear esses did not unbalance the car at all!
The brakes held up perfectly, even after 4 half hour sessions, the pedal was firm. Note that I did not abuse the brakes, but I was turning fast laps.
As the tires got hotter, I was sliding in some of the high speed corners (90-100 MPH). The car is perfectly predictable and goes sideways evenly, i.e. a straight lateral movement. Drifting the corners was fun, but hell on the stock PS2s. In fact the tires suffered rounded shoulders due to the lack of negative camber. I was having so much fun that I ignored the mistreatment I was handing out.
PDK - in a word, wow! I began by shifting it myself. Note that the buttons are now perfectly intuitive and I love their placement - better than paddles behind the wheel I think. In sport or sport plus mode, the shifts are very quick, so fast that neither up nor downshifts upset the car. Exiting turn 6 (a fast left hand sweeper) I could upshift from 3rd to 4th as I was tracking out with no issues. Don't try that with a manual gear box!
Recalling some advice posted on this board, I then switched to fully automatic mode. So, sport chrono plus with the lever in "D". Apparently this is how the cars are driven at the Porsche School at Barber Motorsports.
WOW. Talk about a no brainier. The computer does indeed keep the engine in the meat of the power band - 4000 to redline RPM. It was aerie coming up to 14 (hairpin) and hearing the car blip down into 3rd and then second as I braked.
In this mode the transmission selected the same gear I was using in manual mode. All I had to do was steer and brake. Quite remarkable.
Note too that I did not burn any oil in spite of being on track over 4 hours!
While this is not and will not be my track car, anyone who wants to track one will not be disappointed. I am very impressed!
Best,
Steering is heavier than my RS but to my surprise the car does not understeer a lot. entry to slow corners meets the usual 911 resistance but accelerating out from the apex the car goes where it is pointed. I wonder if this is due to the AWD system? In any event, I was pleased with the box stock handling.
Note stock tires, alignment, brakes - i.e., as delivered.
With sport PASM set to firm, the car has little body roll, not quite as flat as the RS but stiff enough that quick transitions as in the 2nd gear esses did not unbalance the car at all!
The brakes held up perfectly, even after 4 half hour sessions, the pedal was firm. Note that I did not abuse the brakes, but I was turning fast laps.
As the tires got hotter, I was sliding in some of the high speed corners (90-100 MPH). The car is perfectly predictable and goes sideways evenly, i.e. a straight lateral movement. Drifting the corners was fun, but hell on the stock PS2s. In fact the tires suffered rounded shoulders due to the lack of negative camber. I was having so much fun that I ignored the mistreatment I was handing out.
PDK - in a word, wow! I began by shifting it myself. Note that the buttons are now perfectly intuitive and I love their placement - better than paddles behind the wheel I think. In sport or sport plus mode, the shifts are very quick, so fast that neither up nor downshifts upset the car. Exiting turn 6 (a fast left hand sweeper) I could upshift from 3rd to 4th as I was tracking out with no issues. Don't try that with a manual gear box!
Recalling some advice posted on this board, I then switched to fully automatic mode. So, sport chrono plus with the lever in "D". Apparently this is how the cars are driven at the Porsche School at Barber Motorsports.
WOW. Talk about a no brainier. The computer does indeed keep the engine in the meat of the power band - 4000 to redline RPM. It was aerie coming up to 14 (hairpin) and hearing the car blip down into 3rd and then second as I braked.
In this mode the transmission selected the same gear I was using in manual mode. All I had to do was steer and brake. Quite remarkable.
Note too that I did not burn any oil in spite of being on track over 4 hours!
While this is not and will not be my track car, anyone who wants to track one will not be disappointed. I am very impressed!
Best,
J.Seven
05-27-2009 | 10:36 PM
#28
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Joined: Mar 2006
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From: in a happy place
i must say that this Cab is stiffer than anything i've owned short of an SL so i expect it to perform pretty well.
05-30-2009 | 03:47 PM
#29
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2008
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mdrums you should post that video of my 997,1 c2s with 6 spd following you with your pdk...997.2 definitely faster epsecially vs your tiptronic that you had...i am waiting for my supercharger to come in so i can pass you
mk
mk