todd.

Both my original good quality torque wrench and new Sears one are similarly accurate, so there is no problem with the torque wrench. I agree that Sears does not put out a great torque wrench, but the only purpose was to verify mine was accurate and keep the Sears one as a backup.

OCBen

Whether or not you believe anti-seize to be a lubricant is a moot point.

Anti-seize IS a lubricant. Look it up.

It prevents seizing, which is what happens when two metals rubbing against each other under high pressure suddenly lock up as a result of galling action. And the way to prevent that is to provide a lubricant.

So my analysis is correct as it stands.

todd.

There are two 40-250 ft.lb. 1/2" Precision models I am interested in, which one would you recommend? I don't want a flex head, so it's a matter of fixed drive or ratchet style.
-C3F250F Fixed drive
-C3R250F Rigid ratchet

Also, I've always wondered if adding a small length adaptor between the torque wrench & socket throws off the torque setting?
I am sure OCBen will chim in with an answer to this one.

Gaspasser19

Well, you can ********** all day long on the correct "wet or dry" torque values but I think it's missing the point. If you and I are using the same spacers and the bolts are being torqued to the same setting with "dry" threads the question is why are yours coming loose while mine are not?

todd.

So, you installed your bolts dry as I did to 96ft.lb. torque?

OCBen

Tried to get more information for you Todd on this anti-seize compound recommended by PAG.

I did come across this bit of advice from Tire Rack:But we now know that PAG has specifically stated otherwise and listed lug bolt torque for lubricated threads.

I was, though, able to find a comparable product to PAG's Optimoly TA, a product by Anti-Seize Technology called Moly-AP Assembly Paste. Here's the spec sheet for it: http://www.antiseize.com/techdata/td37000.pdf

What I found interesting was the information they listed under 'restrictions': "reduce torque values by 1/3 when used on threaded connections."

That means that for dry threads, one should be applying 50% more torque if torque values are listed using this product:

todd.

This is critical info for us all. Thanks so much for taking the time to research & interpret it.

Gaspasser19

That is correct.

jhbrennan

Thanks Ben for the research - this really is confusing. I have 7mm spacers and the longer Porsche OEM lug bolts. I torque them to 96 ft lbs "dry" and have never experienced a loosening as reported by Todd.

OCBen

You're quite welcome.

It may well be that there was sufficient residual anti-seize paste in the threaded holes from the factory to provide just enough lubrication when you torqued them down.

Minok

That is quite likely. If it was applied at the factory (which I'm assuming it was, given what the owners manual says about installing the wheel bolts), then unscrewing the lugs would not magically make the paste disappear from inside the threaded holes. If you replace the same wheel bolts, your probably just fine. If you used new, longer bolts that were clean and dry, then you still have 'some' lubrication from the paste still in the holes, but the at will be spread out over the threads again.. thinner, and no anti-seize on the space between the washer and bolt head. So you are somewhere in the middle ground.

todd.

What A Pain.
I just finished taking all four wheels and spacers off, cleaning the Blue Loctite off the bolts, spacers & inside threads, properly applied Loctite Anti-Seize to all bolts and reassembled. I set the torque to 96ft.lbs., and have a new Precision Instruments split-beam torque wrench on the way. This better take care of the problem. I will advise after a hundred miles or so.
By the way, Walmart has a really nice 3 ton low profile jack for $95, fits nicely under my C2S CAB. My Craftsman 3 ton required me to remove the plate in order to fit under the car.

OCBen

It should be emphasized that these lug bolts must be lubricated with a comparable anti-seize paste per the manual's specific instructions for proper installation. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT attempt to install under completely dry conditions and then try to compensate for the lack of lubrication by over-torquing them to a higher value.

The reason why PAG has specified otherwise and listed torque values for lubricated conditions is because with these lug bolts there is potentially more thread engagement and thus more friction to overcome.

With a typical lug nut the maximum amount of thread engagement can only be as deep as the width of the nut (about 3/4 of an inch) and so torque values for lug nuts are typically given for dry conditions. With a lug bolt set up, the threaded holes are deeper than the width of a lug nut. And with the long thread length of these lug bolts there is potentially more thread engagement and thus potentially more friction to overcome. So PAG knew that the only way to predictably get the correct bolt pre-load is by specifying an anti-seize product with a known k value (coefficient of friction) and then specifying the amount of torque that will predictably pre-load the lug bolts to the required tension for proper installation.

But really, any comparable anti-seize paste for threads will work just as well. Loctite makes a comparable product as well as Anti-Seize Technology. But whatever you do, do not use motor oil to lubricate them. This will lower the friction too much and you will likely over-torque your lug bolts.

Make sure you use your fingers to start the thread engagement of these bolts. That's the only way to really tell if your threads are engaging properly. Use a diagonal pattern when inserting them and finger tightening them. And always use a diagonal pattern when tightening them to torque value.

Lastly, the 96 ft-lbs is not a maximum value. It's a nominal value. With an implied tolerance. Typical tolerance values are between 3 and 5%. So if your torque wrench is calibrated for 5 ft-lb increments, and you're trying to decide if you should torque to 95 or 100 ft-lbs, go with 100. Like I said, the mechanic at the shop is likely torquing on the high side with his air wrench. Generally speaking, it is better to over-torque, than to under-torque and potentially have a wheel come loose at high speed. These steel bolts are really quite strong and are only being loaded to a fraction of their capacity in this application.

acadian_dad

Optimoly-TA appears to be an aluminum loaded anti-sieze and availability in Canada seems to be an issue. The local HW store (Canadian Tire) only carries Permatex copper based anti-sieze. Does anyone know if there wuould be any issues with using copper anti-sieze vs. something closer to Optimoly-TA ?

todd.

I have read that many use copper anti-seize for this application. The Silver Loctite Anti-Seize I used looks very similar to what was on my original bolts.