2009 997S handling
11-13-2008, 07:24 PM
#31
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My shop has the progamer, and they had to alter many of the cars systems. I guess I was not real clear my car spent over 4 months apart we had parts remade using lighter materials and other parts removed and new one fabricated. If you want to do something bad enough and cost is no option, you can do an aweful lot.
11-13-2008, 08:13 PM
#32
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handling on my 997S
Dear All,
thank you for such a wealth of responses. To address some of your questions,
Did you test drive the car or one like it before buying it?
Yes, I drove a PDK S at the SF Porsche roadshow. It was through a coned course and fast though. It felt 'planted'.
The 09 CS handles brilliantly. I do not understand your reference to a classic 911, which although a great car, is far less neutral.
The refernce was only in connection with the fact that P cars, old or new have a great reputation for taught hadling and communicative steering.
Do you have sport mode? I notice a huge difference when I go to sport mode in the stiffness of the suspension.
I am going to try that, thanks.
Funny you should bring this up. I just picked up my '09 C2S with a 6 speed and have already put 5200 miles on it (I drove it back from North Carolina to home in the Pacific Northwest. And I took the scenic route). On the way I took it on the Tail of the Dragon. I also, ummm, exercised it on the mountain roads over the Santa Cruz mountains in the bay area. And I think I noticed exactly what you describe.
I live in SC and drive over 17 or 9 every day to the office. It is my experience on those roads that is causing my misgivings.
Not to sound paternalistic, but new 911 drivers should take a Porsche DE class. An all-in-the-rear design like the 911, even in its latest 997.2 version, is a different platform and that's what makes it fun for many of us.
That's OK, Dad. I took no offense. I did the 2-day course at Barber last year and had no trouble hustling the C2 around the circuit as fast as anyone.
1) Some people have reported that brand new tires can exhibit "tire squirm" and that handling improves as tires wear down a bit. Your new 997S makes a lot more power than your old 964 which could make this effect more noticeable.
It does feel like tire 'squirm' more than anything else, or softly set up dampers.
One other obvious area to check....are all of your tire pressures accurate?
First thing I checked. They look to be spot on.
You're making a poor comparison. You stated that you owned a 1992 Carrera 4 which handles significantly different than a 2WD 997. The 964's handling should have been seen as tight and heavy as you had another differential up front on that car,--the 997 is significantly lighter in that regard. How many years and miles did you accumulate on the 1992? Perhaps you got so set that a "911" feels that way that your experience in the 997 has altered you perception of what a rear-engined car should feel like. If this is truly your first experience at driving a rear wheel drive only 911 then you are in for a change in handling,--that's normal. I find it considerably more tossable in the curves where I use a little bit of trailing throttle oversteer to point the car. Much of this can also be attributed to our inability to accurately describe in words what we are experiencing. I've been a 911 owner since the mid-70s and have amassed nearly 300,000 miles in them. I currently have 32,000 miles on my 06 997S and find it enjoyable to drive iwth linked turns,--nearly like slalom skiing!
Your feedback makes sense. I'll bear it in mind as my experience increases over time, thanks.
thank you for such a wealth of responses. To address some of your questions,
Did you test drive the car or one like it before buying it?
Yes, I drove a PDK S at the SF Porsche roadshow. It was through a coned course and fast though. It felt 'planted'.
The 09 CS handles brilliantly. I do not understand your reference to a classic 911, which although a great car, is far less neutral.
The refernce was only in connection with the fact that P cars, old or new have a great reputation for taught hadling and communicative steering.
Do you have sport mode? I notice a huge difference when I go to sport mode in the stiffness of the suspension.
I am going to try that, thanks.
Funny you should bring this up. I just picked up my '09 C2S with a 6 speed and have already put 5200 miles on it (I drove it back from North Carolina to home in the Pacific Northwest. And I took the scenic route). On the way I took it on the Tail of the Dragon. I also, ummm, exercised it on the mountain roads over the Santa Cruz mountains in the bay area. And I think I noticed exactly what you describe.
I live in SC and drive over 17 or 9 every day to the office. It is my experience on those roads that is causing my misgivings.
Not to sound paternalistic, but new 911 drivers should take a Porsche DE class. An all-in-the-rear design like the 911, even in its latest 997.2 version, is a different platform and that's what makes it fun for many of us.
That's OK, Dad. I took no offense. I did the 2-day course at Barber last year and had no trouble hustling the C2 around the circuit as fast as anyone.
1) Some people have reported that brand new tires can exhibit "tire squirm" and that handling improves as tires wear down a bit. Your new 997S makes a lot more power than your old 964 which could make this effect more noticeable.
It does feel like tire 'squirm' more than anything else, or softly set up dampers.
One other obvious area to check....are all of your tire pressures accurate?
First thing I checked. They look to be spot on.
You're making a poor comparison. You stated that you owned a 1992 Carrera 4 which handles significantly different than a 2WD 997. The 964's handling should have been seen as tight and heavy as you had another differential up front on that car,--the 997 is significantly lighter in that regard. How many years and miles did you accumulate on the 1992? Perhaps you got so set that a "911" feels that way that your experience in the 997 has altered you perception of what a rear-engined car should feel like. If this is truly your first experience at driving a rear wheel drive only 911 then you are in for a change in handling,--that's normal. I find it considerably more tossable in the curves where I use a little bit of trailing throttle oversteer to point the car. Much of this can also be attributed to our inability to accurately describe in words what we are experiencing. I've been a 911 owner since the mid-70s and have amassed nearly 300,000 miles in them. I currently have 32,000 miles on my 06 997S and find it enjoyable to drive iwth linked turns,--nearly like slalom skiing!
Your feedback makes sense. I'll bear it in mind as my experience increases over time, thanks.
11-13-2008, 11:36 PM
#33
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I still know what the OP was talking about. I haven't put 300K miles on 911s, but have DE'd and explored the limits of the rear engine setup in my 996. Maybe tire squirm is what it is. Is not a simple oversteer issue, just a weird, brief disconnected feeling where the car felt like it wiggled for a moment.
11-14-2008, 12:09 PM
#34
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Hmmmmm
I wonder if this is like when I used to race my former RC51; I'd at times- know when she broke loose and for that *brief* moment I felt I didn't have control of her.
Like, it was on 'ice' feeling.
Is THAT what you guys are experiencing??
I wonder if this is like when I used to race my former RC51; I'd at times- know when she broke loose and for that *brief* moment I felt I didn't have control of her.
Like, it was on 'ice' feeling.
Is THAT what you guys are experiencing??
11-14-2008, 01:36 PM
#35
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I too have felt it. I hate to have to qualify my statements, but it seems in the webisphere, that you are considered a driving neophyte, unless otherwise stated. I have been participating in DE events for over 10 years, and have been an instructor for the last 4. I have raced and won in shifter karts, as well as hill-climbs. I know the difference between tire pressure issues, and suspension issues. They don't feel remotely similar.
My cayman never had this very slight, but still unnerving moment of movement at the rear. It is not as though the tires are moving, it is as though the body is not settled, and is still moving, as though there is some, "slop" in the body control, which kind of tugs at the tires.
This was not my car, (which I have on order) but was a car with Sport PASM and Limited Slip. I am just sitting here wondering if the diff. is inducing some additional wiggle. I cant remember if this was just during throttle transition or not.
Anyway, I don't love it, but am glad to hear that I am not the only person to experience it.
Michael
My cayman never had this very slight, but still unnerving moment of movement at the rear. It is not as though the tires are moving, it is as though the body is not settled, and is still moving, as though there is some, "slop" in the body control, which kind of tugs at the tires.
This was not my car, (which I have on order) but was a car with Sport PASM and Limited Slip. I am just sitting here wondering if the diff. is inducing some additional wiggle. I cant remember if this was just during throttle transition or not.
Anyway, I don't love it, but am glad to hear that I am not the only person to experience it.
Michael
11-14-2008, 03:30 PM
#36
Nordschleife Master
I too have felt it. I hate to have to qualify my statements, but it seems in the webisphere, that you are considered a driving neophyte, unless otherwise stated. I have been participating in DE events for over 10 years, and have been an instructor for the last 4. I have raced and won in shifter karts, as well as hill-climbs. I know the difference between tire pressure issues, and suspension issues. They don't feel remotely similar.
My cayman never had this very slight, but still unnerving moment of movement at the rear. It is not as though the tires are moving, it is as though the body is not settled, and is still moving, as though there is some, "slop" in the body control, which kind of tugs at the tires.
This was not my car, (which I have on order) but was a car with Sport PASM and Limited Slip. I am just sitting here wondering if the diff. is inducing some additional wiggle. I cant remember if this was just during throttle transition or not.
Anyway, I don't love it, but am glad to hear that I am not the only person to experience it.
Michael
My cayman never had this very slight, but still unnerving moment of movement at the rear. It is not as though the tires are moving, it is as though the body is not settled, and is still moving, as though there is some, "slop" in the body control, which kind of tugs at the tires.
This was not my car, (which I have on order) but was a car with Sport PASM and Limited Slip. I am just sitting here wondering if the diff. is inducing some additional wiggle. I cant remember if this was just during throttle transition or not.
Anyway, I don't love it, but am glad to hear that I am not the only person to experience it.
Michael
I drove several 997.2s at the PCNA fast autocross launch event and the car felt on rails, or when sliding, I knew where the rear was. I have no idea if those cars had LSDs or not.
Does the OP's car have LSD?
11-14-2008, 07:31 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
Two possible causes:
1) Some people have reported that brand new tires can exhibit "tire squirm" and that handling improves as tires wear down a bit. Your new 997S makes a lot more power than your old 964 which could make this effect more noticeable.
2) Or you may have an alignment problem.
1) Some people have reported that brand new tires can exhibit "tire squirm" and that handling improves as tires wear down a bit. Your new 997S makes a lot more power than your old 964 which could make this effect more noticeable.
2) Or you may have an alignment problem.
Possible bingo....Alignment. I had this issue when my old C2 was delivered. The alignment was so far off that the car felt like it handled like crap. Had it properly realigned and it was night and day. Usually if you're within the first 2000 miles, the dealer will do it for free. Let us know if you get it sorted out.
11-17-2008, 01:37 AM
#39
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I bought an after market sway bar for the rear and it made a
big difference. The stock sway bar is a hollow tube that saves weight
for the milleage calculations. The after market sway bar adds 30lbs.
The rear end will not roll as much with the aftermarket bar. I can
put the after market bar on it's softest settings and it is still firmer
then the stock bar.
I recommend replacing the rear sway bar for performance.
Do not replace the front sway bar unless you like to spend money. You
will need to drain the front radiators to remove the hoses so you
can get access at the mounting bolts for the front sway bar.
Paul
big difference. The stock sway bar is a hollow tube that saves weight
for the milleage calculations. The after market sway bar adds 30lbs.
The rear end will not roll as much with the aftermarket bar. I can
put the after market bar on it's softest settings and it is still firmer
then the stock bar.
I recommend replacing the rear sway bar for performance.
Do not replace the front sway bar unless you like to spend money. You
will need to drain the front radiators to remove the hoses so you
can get access at the mounting bolts for the front sway bar.
Paul
11-17-2008, 07:53 AM
#40
Lockmk I LOVE the Ducati on your avatar. beautiful...
11-17-2008, 10:43 AM
#41
What do you want to know, search my posts you will find pics of my car, and my 430, and the Gallardo I just bought (it is being moded now), will post pics when it is done. For those who think I'm full of it, call Rosen Porsche, or Algar Ferrari.
11-19-2008, 12:06 PM
#42
Well, coming off a 2003 Cab4 with a GT3 type suspension, which was as tight as you'd ever want a street car to be, I find my 2007 Cab4S to be a bit 'floaty' in the turns as well. Almost like the car is riding a little high. With Sport Mode, it's MUCH better. I just wish I could leave the Sport Mode on all the time, as it shuts off every time you turn off the car.
BTW, for those PCA'ers out there, I am a member, have AX'd and DE'd as well, both 996's and a 997. Just one man's opinion.
BTW, for those PCA'ers out there, I am a member, have AX'd and DE'd as well, both 996's and a 997. Just one man's opinion.
11-19-2008, 02:03 PM
#43
Track Day
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the fog lifts...
Well,
I checked the tire pressures, the alignment and whether the tires were out of true (as a couple of people mentioned the new tires are not too reliable). Anyway, I think I have solved the mystery.
I have run the car for the last two days in Sport Mode - and it is a different car. It is responsive, confidence inspiring and generally feels more 'urgent'.
I'm amazed, thinking about it, that Porsche allow the car out of the factory with the standard suspension settings. It's soft, wallowy and feels like it is set up for the suburban school run. Shame! Does it say more about the target audience? Are these settings unique to the USA? I have to completely agree with NYNick on this.
zizu - it's not my Ducati in the avatar (I wish...) My bike (well one of them) is the photo below, but it has become a bit of an animal to ride and spends most ofit's time parked up at shows now...
I checked the tire pressures, the alignment and whether the tires were out of true (as a couple of people mentioned the new tires are not too reliable). Anyway, I think I have solved the mystery.
I have run the car for the last two days in Sport Mode - and it is a different car. It is responsive, confidence inspiring and generally feels more 'urgent'.
I'm amazed, thinking about it, that Porsche allow the car out of the factory with the standard suspension settings. It's soft, wallowy and feels like it is set up for the suburban school run. Shame! Does it say more about the target audience? Are these settings unique to the USA? I have to completely agree with NYNick on this.
zizu - it's not my Ducati in the avatar (I wish...) My bike (well one of them) is the photo below, but it has become a bit of an animal to ride and spends most ofit's time parked up at shows now...
11-19-2008, 04:46 PM
#44
Three Wheelin'
My problem with the suspension in "sport" is that it feels different front to rear. The back end feels fine, but the front end feels too stiff with a high frequency "nodding dog" movement. Unless the road is very smooth it will lose grip at either end, and you can hear/feel the abs cutting in. In "sport" it's nowhere near as fluid as the Lotus Elise and you would expect it to be. I would hope that 997.2 would be better in this respect, but I need more time on roads I know to determine that.
11-19-2008, 07:48 PM
#45
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nodding dog
LeChef
I feel that they have managed to eliminate the nodding dog effect that I have felt on older P cars. I'm loving the handling feeling now and am just baffled as to how the soft standard set up is not being complained about, or acknowledged by all the 'veteran' sages who mentioned that it is probably driver 'inexperience'...
I feel that they have managed to eliminate the nodding dog effect that I have felt on older P cars. I'm loving the handling feeling now and am just baffled as to how the soft standard set up is not being complained about, or acknowledged by all the 'veteran' sages who mentioned that it is probably driver 'inexperience'...