PDK Transmission Vs 6 speed
08-10-2008, 07:22 AM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
PDK Transmission Vs 6 speed
I'm probably coming to this forum as my 997 GT3 appears to be going back to Porsche for several issues and a 2009 Carrera S will most likely be my replacement car. The question is on the PDK transmission. Hoew much heavier that the 6 speed? I have always driven standard, well I did have a Tip equiped Cayman S for a year in the hopes that my wife would drive it, she didn't too often and I was not real happy with the tip. The write-ups on the PDK look good but it is brand new to the 997 along with a new engine and that brings doubt to me. Comments from those that either are ordering PDK and those that have decided not to are welcome. Thanks ... very sad to see the GT3 go. A blast to drive but has spent toooooo many weeks in the shop with various little issues the main one being in for its fourth RMS in 3800 miles and not yet a year old.
08-10-2008, 01:21 PM
#2
Although a different car and different transmission, I would visit the VW Vortex forms and check out the DSG discussions. The PDK and DSG are of the same concept. Overall, I believe the DSG to be a greast design, but it is not without problems.
08-12-2008, 05:05 PM
#3
FWIW, I have 3 years and 50K+ miles on an Audi A3 with DSG, and I LOVE the tranny. I'll bet the PDK will end up faster than the 6M in every test.
Some people think it's less involving, and if you just stick it in D it is, which is great when stuck in traffic. But I've been driving manual trannys for many years, it's a bigger challenge for me to learn something new to me, like left foot braking. I'm seriously considering upgrading my beloved decked out 997S for a new one with PDK.
Some people think it's less involving, and if you just stick it in D it is, which is great when stuck in traffic. But I've been driving manual trannys for many years, it's a bigger challenge for me to learn something new to me, like left foot braking. I'm seriously considering upgrading my beloved decked out 997S for a new one with PDK.
08-12-2008, 05:10 PM
#4
Three Wheelin'
May your soul rest in peace if you do.....
Seriously, I just got out of an E46 M3 with the SMG, and I phreakin' loved that tranny Problems I have heard (and seen in pics) thus far with this one is that it's laid out goofy on the steering wheel Shifting the DSG, SMG, whatever, simply using the console shifter is not nearly as fun as being able to bang gears while holding the steering wheel. I am also intrigued by the PDK, but will likely wait for v2 to make a decision.
Seriously, I just got out of an E46 M3 with the SMG, and I phreakin' loved that tranny Problems I have heard (and seen in pics) thus far with this one is that it's laid out goofy on the steering wheel Shifting the DSG, SMG, whatever, simply using the console shifter is not nearly as fun as being able to bang gears while holding the steering wheel. I am also intrigued by the PDK, but will likely wait for v2 to make a decision.
08-12-2008, 05:14 PM
#5
If you liked SMG, PDK will give you wood. Light years better in every way.
08-17-2008, 10:09 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
PDK is 66lb heavier than the 6 speed.
I am trying to choose as well for an order. Is there a full manual mode for PDK (ie one that won't upshift automatically at redline)? I can't tell from the Excellence review.
I am trying to choose as well for an order. Is there a full manual mode for PDK (ie one that won't upshift automatically at redline)? I can't tell from the Excellence review.
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08-18-2008, 12:02 AM
#8
Race Director
As most of you know I do not have a choice when it comes to transmissions..but if I did I am not sure which way I would go. I use to enjoy shifting.
for street driving and DE's get what YOU want. If you like a manual and want to work on heel and toe at the track and try to learn to shift a manual as good as Hurley Haywood did then get the manual.
I just do not understand why most of you all have to put down the PDK or any other semi-auto style transmission. I run a Tiptronic at the track and while it is not the best is it not the worst either and at least it lets a guy like me enjoy a sports car like my Porsche.
for street driving and DE's get what YOU want. If you like a manual and want to work on heel and toe at the track and try to learn to shift a manual as good as Hurley Haywood did then get the manual.
I just do not understand why most of you all have to put down the PDK or any other semi-auto style transmission. I run a Tiptronic at the track and while it is not the best is it not the worst either and at least it lets a guy like me enjoy a sports car like my Porsche.
08-18-2008, 02:46 AM
#10
We also have a DSG-equipped A3 and it's fantastic. I owned a DSG VW GTI before that. It's a remarkable transmission - it's a completely different ballgame from a standard torque-converter automatic (Tiptronics included). Also, I believe Porsche tuned the PDK to be a very fast-shifting (and hard-hitting) shift algorithm to mimic the shifts with Ferrari's F1 Superfast. This is MUCH different from the smoothness built into the VW/Audi DSGs. The Porsche system should be much like the sports programs in the GT-R and Evo X - holding gears into redline, aggressively downshifting, using shift logic to "decide" gears for corners, etc. It is the future, no matter what people like or say...
08-18-2008, 01:00 PM
#12
Because I'm familiar with SMG as implemented in the previous M3, and although I haven't yet driven PDK I know the technology is based on an improved version of the Audi DSG, which I'm very familiar with. Since DSG is better in every way than SMG (IMO of course), it's a reasonable assumption that PDK if anything will be even better.
08-18-2008, 01:20 PM
#13
DSG has been around for about 5 years and 1M+ cars and personally I've not heard of anyone replacing the clutches, other than as part of replacing a failing tranny as a whole.
If they do wear, it looks like about $700 parts and $500 labor to replace. Apply your favorite multiplier to achieve Porsche prices.
08-18-2008, 01:40 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
First-hand knowlege
Just drove PDK in Germany.
It shreds SMG and is better than DSG, too. Most noticeably when leaving the line, where DSG struggles to figure out when, exactly, to get moving against your throttle input. You get better at it with DSG, but PDK is totally perfect in this regard. Very impressive.
Other good stuff:
-PDK's shifts are superb, both up and down.
-Steering wheel buttons work very well for normal driving, except for polarity
-Default mode very efficient/quiet around town
-Manual mode is just that, almost entirely, anyway
-Sport Plus is ridiculously intelligent in picking gears for fast driving
-Left foot braking is easier than ever, but a lot of great drivers do not use this. I started experimenting with it a couple of years ago, then, I dunno, forgot to keep practicing it. With PDK, I am sure I would develop the skill, because my left foot would get bored...
BUT the first PDK system is not perfect. Here's what I do not like:
-Normal mode tries to go to sixth, then seventh as quickly as possible, just as Tip tried to go to fourth, then fifth. Good for emissions and economy, but, sometimes, if you're like me, you think "Hey, maybe I want to run a gear down around town." Maybe it's the air-cooled guy still in me. I dunno. You can switch to Sport or Sport Plus, but the latter is especially too aggressive around town, ALWAYS holding second. This is a minor thing, but PDK feels a bit TOO efficient at times. Hard to describe, but I wouldn't have this complaint in an A3 or GTI, if you know what I mean. Again, minor niggle and arguably stupid given environmental reasoning.
-Push forward for upshifts/pull back for downshifts is counter-intuitive in terms of g forces and other points of reference, from shifter carts to most other cars. Even BMW realized it had it wrong and changed to the "proper" (push forward for downshifts under braking) polarity a few years ago. Even after a day and a half, and I am usually very good at "adjusting" to a given car as a result of driving so many, I still found myself occasionally shifting from fourth to sixth with PDK at the track -- when I wanted second. This wasn't good for my line, and the only way to avoid the issue was to really think about it while trying to, uh, drive. When doing that, I'd rather think about other things like lines, braking points, etc. Even though I'm sure I would "adjust" in time, this is my biggest beef with PDK, however. Even those within Weissach were divided on this, with test drivers and racers wanting the "normal" setup but others wanting the Tip/Cayenne logic. The latter won out. But, if BMW switched, maybe there is hope.
-Upshifts in the Sport Plus mode are hard, harsh, and jolting if you are a mechanically sympathetic driver, and thus disturbing. That said, this criticism faded somewhat when I discussed the issue with an engineer who revealed there is a slight but worthwhile lap time advantage to the hard upshifts (they are not allowed if the car is cornering, by the way) and that the driveline was engineered to deal with the increased torque hit.
-Steering wheel buttons, for serious driving, subtly goad you into keeping your hands at 9 and 3. I am a devout shuffle-steerer, but found myself crossing my arms at the track. Not good for leverage and fine-tuning, and not good in a road car with an airbag behind those wrists. Tall paddles a la Ferrari would be better. Just my opinion. Another solution would be to use the console shifter, but then you lose the advantage of keeping two hands on the wheel at all times...
Overall verdict:
-PDK is an INCREDIBLE replacement for Tiptronic. Period. Also a great option for sporting drivers who don't particularly love shifting with a clutch pedal. As for me? I'd like to flirt with PDK a little more than for just a day or two, and will look forward to that. But I'd still order a stick. If the above are resolved, I might revisit the subject, but giving up the involvement of heel/toe interaction is, for me, a tall order. The good news is that, if that's not an issue for you, you f-i-n-a-l-l-y have a SUPERB alternative.
Hope this early info is helpful for those filling out order guides or just dreaming.
pete
It shreds SMG and is better than DSG, too. Most noticeably when leaving the line, where DSG struggles to figure out when, exactly, to get moving against your throttle input. You get better at it with DSG, but PDK is totally perfect in this regard. Very impressive.
Other good stuff:
-PDK's shifts are superb, both up and down.
-Steering wheel buttons work very well for normal driving, except for polarity
-Default mode very efficient/quiet around town
-Manual mode is just that, almost entirely, anyway
-Sport Plus is ridiculously intelligent in picking gears for fast driving
-Left foot braking is easier than ever, but a lot of great drivers do not use this. I started experimenting with it a couple of years ago, then, I dunno, forgot to keep practicing it. With PDK, I am sure I would develop the skill, because my left foot would get bored...
BUT the first PDK system is not perfect. Here's what I do not like:
-Normal mode tries to go to sixth, then seventh as quickly as possible, just as Tip tried to go to fourth, then fifth. Good for emissions and economy, but, sometimes, if you're like me, you think "Hey, maybe I want to run a gear down around town." Maybe it's the air-cooled guy still in me. I dunno. You can switch to Sport or Sport Plus, but the latter is especially too aggressive around town, ALWAYS holding second. This is a minor thing, but PDK feels a bit TOO efficient at times. Hard to describe, but I wouldn't have this complaint in an A3 or GTI, if you know what I mean. Again, minor niggle and arguably stupid given environmental reasoning.
-Push forward for upshifts/pull back for downshifts is counter-intuitive in terms of g forces and other points of reference, from shifter carts to most other cars. Even BMW realized it had it wrong and changed to the "proper" (push forward for downshifts under braking) polarity a few years ago. Even after a day and a half, and I am usually very good at "adjusting" to a given car as a result of driving so many, I still found myself occasionally shifting from fourth to sixth with PDK at the track -- when I wanted second. This wasn't good for my line, and the only way to avoid the issue was to really think about it while trying to, uh, drive. When doing that, I'd rather think about other things like lines, braking points, etc. Even though I'm sure I would "adjust" in time, this is my biggest beef with PDK, however. Even those within Weissach were divided on this, with test drivers and racers wanting the "normal" setup but others wanting the Tip/Cayenne logic. The latter won out. But, if BMW switched, maybe there is hope.
-Upshifts in the Sport Plus mode are hard, harsh, and jolting if you are a mechanically sympathetic driver, and thus disturbing. That said, this criticism faded somewhat when I discussed the issue with an engineer who revealed there is a slight but worthwhile lap time advantage to the hard upshifts (they are not allowed if the car is cornering, by the way) and that the driveline was engineered to deal with the increased torque hit.
-Steering wheel buttons, for serious driving, subtly goad you into keeping your hands at 9 and 3. I am a devout shuffle-steerer, but found myself crossing my arms at the track. Not good for leverage and fine-tuning, and not good in a road car with an airbag behind those wrists. Tall paddles a la Ferrari would be better. Just my opinion. Another solution would be to use the console shifter, but then you lose the advantage of keeping two hands on the wheel at all times...
Overall verdict:
-PDK is an INCREDIBLE replacement for Tiptronic. Period. Also a great option for sporting drivers who don't particularly love shifting with a clutch pedal. As for me? I'd like to flirt with PDK a little more than for just a day or two, and will look forward to that. But I'd still order a stick. If the above are resolved, I might revisit the subject, but giving up the involvement of heel/toe interaction is, for me, a tall order. The good news is that, if that's not an issue for you, you f-i-n-a-l-l-y have a SUPERB alternative.
Hope this early info is helpful for those filling out order guides or just dreaming.
pete
