996FourEss

All, the more I see and read about the new Panamera, the more concerned I become. A recent Autobild article written by Georg Kacher is driving my concern. As some of you may know, Kacher is a leading European journalist with particularly close ties to the German manufacturers and usually has inside access to the R&D teams, so I would tend to think his information is pretty close to reality. In the article, he puts the dimensions of the new Panamera as follows: Length: 4980 mm • Width: 1987 mm • Height: 1581 mm • Wheelbase: 3110 mm • Weight: 1950 Kilogramm [for the V8 TT engine].

Compare this with the following (which I think should be the core comps)
Audi S8: Length: 5062 mm • Width: 1894 mm • Height: 1424 mm • Wheelbase: 2944 mm • Weight: 1940 Kilogramm (450 hp)

BMW M5: Length: 4855 mm • Width: 1846 mm • Height: 1469 mm • Wheelbase: 2888 mm • Weight: 1830 Kilogramm (507 hp)

I would suggest that these are the two best comparable cars. From the numbers, the Panamera looks like it will be both big in terms of both lengthand width, but, most concerningly, far too tall. Also, there have been some Porsche communiques about the revolutionary use of light-weight construction techniques, but they don't seem to be reflected in the weight specs. In my mind, a Porsche is all about being compact in size, light weight, exceptional visibility, handling, performance and tactile responsiveness. I fail to see how this can be achieved given the sheer size of the Panamera relative to the competition. In my mind, the Panamera should certainly be not a Mercedes S-class alternative.

I am seeking feedback from fellow rennlisters on the following:
(1) what do you think the right competitive universe is?
(2) do you share my significant concerns that Porsche has not got the design brief right in terms of building the car too big and too heavy?

p-cardriver

I don't know whether to believe the stats yet - seems too early for Porsche to let such competitively valuable data out. In particular I have trouble believing the width and height which both seem too big by a lot.

I don't think weight matters as much in this group of cars as there is plenty of engine to go around. Not likely to be seen at DEs, now are they? But what is P's marketing game - to keep 911 and Cayenne owners from buying a benz for their sedan? If so, all it has to do is be close to the benz in performance and feel like a Porsche (which probably means it actually beats the benz in performance pretty badly).

As to comps, I'd include the Mercedes CLS and its at least worth giggles to rack up the S class.

For me personally its a non-issue. I'm not in the market for any of these cars, nor likely to be for many years. Kids are gone, having too much fun with sports cars!

Alan Smithee

My biggest concern is that it's going to be horribly ugly.

Can't really expect a medium-to-large luxury sedan to be any less than 4,000lbs these days. If the range-topper is 1,950kg, that's not bad.

As far as the design and marketing, I don't think any of us are expecting a 4-door 911 in terms of size and weight. I think the TT is directly aimed at the Maserati Quattroporte, and lesser versions the MB CLS.

I only hope it spawns an attractive coupe, a spiritual successor to the 928...

axhoaxho

The biggest concern to me will be its depreciation.

Regards,

Le Chef

My biggest concern is that we speculate about data that's not been published yet, which seems like an awful waste of time.

If you're a buyer of the S8, 750i, Quattroporte, CLS, etc. then your frame of reference is not a 2+2 sports car created in the 1960's, but the IMAGE of that car transposed onto the kind of luxury sporting sedan that you like to buy. In filthy marketing terms it's called brand-stretching.

Take a deep breath, move 3 feet to your right, and take another look.

911Dave

+1. And it's beyond me why anyone would be "concerned" about the Panamera. We've already endured the Cayenne, so who cares if the Panamera is built like a Rolls. Concern yourself with the 911. The Panamera is not on your radar screen.

Le Chef

You might also like to know that Porsche has impressed the engineers at Audi with their use of "superlight" steel to build the Panamera. Apparently it has caused Audi engineers to reconsider their use of aluminum in the A8...

As a sidebar one can only hope that they use it in 1901 or whatever the next generation 911 will be called to get the weight of that little fatty down by 500kg's or so.

roberga

I do not care what they do with a 4 door car. I am more concerned about what they do in the 911 world. That being said, there was a mule in the Seattle area back in Jan. Someone I know that had a chance to get a close look liked it a lot.

996FourEss

I had also seen the reference to the superlight steel. Fact is though, if you take a Cayenne, strip out the offroard hardware (locking diffs, low ratio gearbox, etc.) and move to a slightly smaller foot (less sheet metal, etc), you get to most of the way to the 1950kg. So I am concerned that it may be more marketing hype than reality, although sincerely hope that there will be some surprise factor in the final product that Porsche is keeping close to their chests.

Re your point Le Chef, I completely agree with your thoughts on speculation being a waste of time. That said, Georg Kacher is the most connected journalist in the business and often a conduit for manuafacturers to socialize new concepts, technology, specs, etc. so I would actually disagree that this is pure speculation. I agree that everything stands and falls with the 911. That said, the notion that the other vehicles support the underlying, fundamental brand values of the 911 and not just its R&D budget is I think a worthy objective, even if you will never buy one of them, no?

blk on blk

I want to wait until I see the final product, but from what I have seen I am not really a fan. IMO if they wanted to build a sedan they should have built one that is beautiful, and luxurious while offering the Porsche performance expected. What I see is something that looks like a really bad version of a 911 that just does not work from a style perspective. Granted what we have seen is not a final product, but it has to be pretty close at this point. Trying to make the sedan look like a 911 was just a bad call. This car should have been made to stand on its own style. The 911 is an iconic sports car and its design cues only work on that platform.

Dave in Oregon

It seems that the Panamera will likely be patterned after the Cayenne as to styling, engines, interior. If you like the Cayenne, you'll love the Panamera. As to those of us who are not in the market for either, let's hope that this new design approach does NOT rub off into the 911 camp.

Le Chef

Porsche needs to hire a good design chief. Their design architecture/language is a complete mess. You can build the world's best SUV, but if you make it look like Shrek then longer term you've got a problem. And crass "family" stying links with 911 belittle the intelligence of the buyer.

For Panamera the benchmark for styling should be Aston Martin Rapide and Maserati Quattroporte rather than the "aerodynamic dog turd" school of styling employed by BMW.