How does PASM in sport mode compare....
10-30-2007, 07:00 PM
#16
Race Director
I have a good friend, a DE instructor, that owns a 996 GT3 and per him and my driving it, the conclusion is that it's not a good street car. To low, the tires are R-comps and so he can't drive it in the cold (not that you need to worry about that in CA and you could put PS2s on), it is high-strung with respect to the suspension, it lacks any corrective measures (PSM) for street driving, etc. He is looking for a "street" Porsche presently to compliment his "track Porsche".
The 997S appears to be the best of all worlds. As quick on the track as the 996 GT3, but much better manners for the street.
The 997S appears to be the best of all worlds. As quick on the track as the 996 GT3, but much better manners for the street.
The 997S is the better compromise IMO. Depends how much track vs. street driving you do.
The 996GT3 is quicker, faster and easier to set up for track use compared to the 997 and, for me, because of no sunroof, it is more comfortable. My helmet doesn't rub on the headliner like it does in the 997. The 8000rpm redline is also kinda nice.
10-31-2007, 12:38 AM
#17
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I am at the same cross roads.. I have a 997/4S. PASM Sport handles well on the track. I am able to get very good performance on the track. Very fast. I do as many track days as I can - well over 30 for this year (probably 36) - I would imagine less next year. But I do feel the weight in the 997/4S. I put in 996/GT3 front control arms to dial in more negative camber than stock and that REALLY helps - the car is more balanced, but it is still a big heavy car on the track.
So I am at a cross roads.. Time to put a bar and seats in. Even in PASM/Sport, the body roll & sway needs to be curbed. So I can change the springs, bigger sways (probably adjustable GT3) maybe put in PSS10's, dump the PSE exhaust for something slightly lighter and free breathing for weight and power gains.. But I will still have about as heavy a 911 track car as you can have (aside from a Turbo).. PASM Normal on the street is great and PASM sport on the track is really good, but not enough.
This would still be my only car. Live in NYC, but don't drive every day. Certainly not in the city. Most miles are on the track or going to and from.. I put 18K on since April - at least 4K or more on the track.
The 997/GT3's are way beyond my means. I can swap my 997/4S for a nice 996/GT3 for close to even money. If I do it now, I will still have good trade in on my 4S. If I wait a year with more track time and modifications, that won't be true. I can probably skip most of the mod's with the GT3 anyway. I've talked to people who have 996/GT3's as daily drivers.
Reading through this thread, I've seen various opinions in general. With the specifics above in mind - I am curious to hear suggestions/opinions on my particular cross road.
So I am at a cross roads.. Time to put a bar and seats in. Even in PASM/Sport, the body roll & sway needs to be curbed. So I can change the springs, bigger sways (probably adjustable GT3) maybe put in PSS10's, dump the PSE exhaust for something slightly lighter and free breathing for weight and power gains.. But I will still have about as heavy a 911 track car as you can have (aside from a Turbo).. PASM Normal on the street is great and PASM sport on the track is really good, but not enough.
This would still be my only car. Live in NYC, but don't drive every day. Certainly not in the city. Most miles are on the track or going to and from.. I put 18K on since April - at least 4K or more on the track.
The 997/GT3's are way beyond my means. I can swap my 997/4S for a nice 996/GT3 for close to even money. If I do it now, I will still have good trade in on my 4S. If I wait a year with more track time and modifications, that won't be true. I can probably skip most of the mod's with the GT3 anyway. I've talked to people who have 996/GT3's as daily drivers.
Reading through this thread, I've seen various opinions in general. With the specifics above in mind - I am curious to hear suggestions/opinions on my particular cross road.
10-31-2007, 09:02 AM
#18
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If you had a 997S, I'd suggest you stick with it and work on a few items to "enhance" the car, such as PSS (good next step, works with PASM with normal and sport settings), headers / cats / mufflers, software, etc. Safety of course -- seats, bar, belts. Me, I'm waiting for the GT2 seats in order to get the "fold down" option and the thorax air bags. My S has been transformed with some help from Farnbacher Loles and Musante. My list includes: Fikse Profil 13 8.5x18 and 11x18 with RA1s, AWE headers, cats, and mufflers, Revo software, SRF fluid, PFC 97 pads. Alignment was much improved with the Cup control arms, though still "mild" for street tire wear and to have some "safety valve" understeer. My car is as light as possible -- the only options I ordered were sport seats, fire extinguisher, and mats (which come out at the track).
One thing to consider is an 05 997S with minimal equipment and move over your 997 GT3 Cup control arms and modify from there. People will debate this for sure, but I'm finding through my lap times and from running with 996 and 997 GT3s on the track that my "slightly modified" 997S is as potent and capable. Critics might say "it's the driver", but we're all running in Black together and my most recent run with a 997GT3 (very experienced driver in the GT3) showed me just how capable a slightly tuned S can be -- we entered the main straight at LRP together at exactly the same speed and he could not pull on me -- on his bumper all the way to big bend. Where I picked up time was the braking zones and cornering -- perhaps my alignment (18" RA1s vs. his 19" PSCs).
I don't think you can beat a 997S as a daily driver / weekend car, that also doubles as a "sleeper" potent track car.
Your 4S is a bit heavier and more expensive / valuable and is basically "untouched". I'd seriously reconsider doing sways and / or springs -- talk with the experts (ie: Farnbacher Loles). They advised me strongly against touching sways, or doing springs. If you touch the suspension other than Control Arms, then you have to do it all -- PSS is fine and with that then you can talk about alternative sways. But mixing and matching PASM shocks with lowering springs was strictly taboo for them.
The 996 GT3 may be a great choice. But I have a friend with one and it's not a very street-friendly car, especially when compared with a 997 variant. But if you want a 70% track car that you can drive on the street (to and from the track, out once in a while), then it may be just the ticket.
As I debated whether to "change" my car or get a track-dedicated car, I figured I have so much seat time in the 997, I enjoy it immensely, and I can modify it slowly over time as I find exactly what it is that I want to change. I'm finding PASM isn't perfect, but I've learned it's limitations and am getting as much as I can out of it on the track. I also could not use my car (any) on the street around here if it were any lower -- I scrape now as is no matter how careful I am. Once the GT2 seats are available, I'll get the half-cage, 6 points, and then my car's transformation will be pretty much complete. The only thing I might do with the suspension is re-align to about -2.5 up front -- sacrifice street wear for better handling on the track.
One thing to consider is an 05 997S with minimal equipment and move over your 997 GT3 Cup control arms and modify from there. People will debate this for sure, but I'm finding through my lap times and from running with 996 and 997 GT3s on the track that my "slightly modified" 997S is as potent and capable. Critics might say "it's the driver", but we're all running in Black together and my most recent run with a 997GT3 (very experienced driver in the GT3) showed me just how capable a slightly tuned S can be -- we entered the main straight at LRP together at exactly the same speed and he could not pull on me -- on his bumper all the way to big bend. Where I picked up time was the braking zones and cornering -- perhaps my alignment (18" RA1s vs. his 19" PSCs).
I don't think you can beat a 997S as a daily driver / weekend car, that also doubles as a "sleeper" potent track car.
Your 4S is a bit heavier and more expensive / valuable and is basically "untouched". I'd seriously reconsider doing sways and / or springs -- talk with the experts (ie: Farnbacher Loles). They advised me strongly against touching sways, or doing springs. If you touch the suspension other than Control Arms, then you have to do it all -- PSS is fine and with that then you can talk about alternative sways. But mixing and matching PASM shocks with lowering springs was strictly taboo for them.
The 996 GT3 may be a great choice. But I have a friend with one and it's not a very street-friendly car, especially when compared with a 997 variant. But if you want a 70% track car that you can drive on the street (to and from the track, out once in a while), then it may be just the ticket.
As I debated whether to "change" my car or get a track-dedicated car, I figured I have so much seat time in the 997, I enjoy it immensely, and I can modify it slowly over time as I find exactly what it is that I want to change. I'm finding PASM isn't perfect, but I've learned it's limitations and am getting as much as I can out of it on the track. I also could not use my car (any) on the street around here if it were any lower -- I scrape now as is no matter how careful I am. Once the GT2 seats are available, I'll get the half-cage, 6 points, and then my car's transformation will be pretty much complete. The only thing I might do with the suspension is re-align to about -2.5 up front -- sacrifice street wear for better handling on the track.
10-31-2007, 01:24 PM
#19
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Ron,
What are your current alignment specs?? I assume that now you have a basic Street biased track setup. Have you done any auto crossing with that alignment setup??
Also, are you getting your alignments at Farnbacher Loles?? I need to get down there and check out their company. I am about 60 minutes away, so I don't get down to Hartford that often.
John
What are your current alignment specs?? I assume that now you have a basic Street biased track setup. Have you done any auto crossing with that alignment setup??
Also, are you getting your alignments at Farnbacher Loles?? I need to get down there and check out their company. I am about 60 minutes away, so I don't get down to Hartford that often.
John
10-31-2007, 03:41 PM
#20
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Hi,
If you get sway bars I sugest you just buy the rear. The
997's need the radiator hoses removed to install a bigger sway
bar in the front. Most mechanics hate this on 997's.
Paul
If you get sway bars I sugest you just buy the rear. The
997's need the radiator hoses removed to install a bigger sway
bar in the front. Most mechanics hate this on 997's.
Paul
10-31-2007, 07:35 PM
#21
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I don't AutoX -- Road courses only.
11-06-2007, 09:31 PM
#22
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I called FL to get their recommendations for tracking my 997S. They suggested:
* GT-3 bars
* GT-3 control arms
* GT-3 rear links
* RS motor mounts
This is not the "Full Monte" setup, but a compromise without changing springs/shocks.
* GT-3 bars
* GT-3 control arms
* GT-3 rear links
* RS motor mounts
This is not the "Full Monte" setup, but a compromise without changing springs/shocks.
11-08-2007, 11:40 PM
#23
Pro
I went from a 996GT3 to a 997S. The primary reason was a baby had come along and I needed a family car! Car seat for the first couple of years and then she can just ride in the back.
I tracked the GT3 about 20 times a year with R comps. I now daily drive and track the 997S. I loved the 996 GT3 and the suspension was amazingly supple for a track car. I really love the 997S just because it does so many things well. Certainly it is not quite the track car the GT3 is but with PASM in sport, the throttle map changed, and the electronic interference more lenient, the 997S is an excellent track car. With respect to the sport button, I use it only on nice mountain roads and at the track. For daily driving, its standard all the time. Finally, I like the classic looks of my 997S a bit better and the interior is much nicer.
If you decide to track the 997S, I would do the following minor mods. I did and am now totally satifsfied with the car. The primary problem with the S is the lack of camber you can get out of the front wheels. This causes all sorts of outer edge tire problems and these tires are too expensive not to get the most out of them. So first thing you should do is put on GT3 control arms. After the arms, I now run -2.5 in the front and 2.0 in the rear (rear stayed std.). Also, I would get the GT3 air ducts for the front brakes. Perfect fit and they channel a lot more air to the front brakes. I also use ATE blue brake fluid but am not sure if there was a realy benefit there. I stayed with my stock dot fluid in the GT3 and it was fine. I have a 996 GT3 Euro club sport seat for the driver side, brey krause harness bars, and harnesses. The harness bar is easily removable after a track event/season and running on the track without a race seat is crazy. You spend more energy keeping from sliding all over the place. Finally, with the harness you can use either a Hans or an R3; a minor expense given the cost of everything else and the most important safety device you can have.
Finally, I would stay away from the '05 997S. I believe in the '06 they made an important change to stop the rear from swaying during cornering. When I first drove the 997S it was an '05 and had this horrible pendulum feeling in the back. I was with Pete Stout at the time (Excellence) and we both noticed it. I vowed to stay away, but they then fixed it in '06.
I tracked the GT3 about 20 times a year with R comps. I now daily drive and track the 997S. I loved the 996 GT3 and the suspension was amazingly supple for a track car. I really love the 997S just because it does so many things well. Certainly it is not quite the track car the GT3 is but with PASM in sport, the throttle map changed, and the electronic interference more lenient, the 997S is an excellent track car. With respect to the sport button, I use it only on nice mountain roads and at the track. For daily driving, its standard all the time. Finally, I like the classic looks of my 997S a bit better and the interior is much nicer.
If you decide to track the 997S, I would do the following minor mods. I did and am now totally satifsfied with the car. The primary problem with the S is the lack of camber you can get out of the front wheels. This causes all sorts of outer edge tire problems and these tires are too expensive not to get the most out of them. So first thing you should do is put on GT3 control arms. After the arms, I now run -2.5 in the front and 2.0 in the rear (rear stayed std.). Also, I would get the GT3 air ducts for the front brakes. Perfect fit and they channel a lot more air to the front brakes. I also use ATE blue brake fluid but am not sure if there was a realy benefit there. I stayed with my stock dot fluid in the GT3 and it was fine. I have a 996 GT3 Euro club sport seat for the driver side, brey krause harness bars, and harnesses. The harness bar is easily removable after a track event/season and running on the track without a race seat is crazy. You spend more energy keeping from sliding all over the place. Finally, with the harness you can use either a Hans or an R3; a minor expense given the cost of everything else and the most important safety device you can have.
Finally, I would stay away from the '05 997S. I believe in the '06 they made an important change to stop the rear from swaying during cornering. When I first drove the 997S it was an '05 and had this horrible pendulum feeling in the back. I was with Pete Stout at the time (Excellence) and we both noticed it. I vowed to stay away, but they then fixed it in '06.
