Carrera S VS. BMW M3
08-13-2006, 01:44 AM
#16
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I agree with gravedgr 100%. Read his take from top to bottom as it's the absolute truth. The M3 is not that far behind the 996 or 997. These guys make it sound as if the only thing good about it are the back seat and trunk. They are underestimating the car, but I would expect that on this forum.
Look, you already have an e-46 M3. I don't know if your looking for a more prestigous marque and can afford it now or for the performance aspect. If your a poser then you won't be the first to go from a BMW to a Porsche for the cache aspect.
But if performance is what your after, the step up ( and mind you it is a step up) is not going to be very noticable. The value an M3 gives vs. the price of a 996 or 997 far outweight the small increase in performance. If your a good driver, you'll pass these cars on track. An equal driver to yourself and you'll keep them in range with good straight line speed (one of the M3's strenths) but the 911's will have faster corning speed as the weight of the M3 comes into the equation.
I thought about going from an M3 to a 996 S or 997 S. But for the money vs. performance, it's not worth it. I went to a GT3 because I wanted a more dedicated and focused car sans electronics, heated this and that, etc. etc. etc. The GT3 is simply in another league from the S.
You didn't mention if your into tracking your car or not, but if you are, that's as honest as I can be.
Look, you already have an e-46 M3. I don't know if your looking for a more prestigous marque and can afford it now or for the performance aspect. If your a poser then you won't be the first to go from a BMW to a Porsche for the cache aspect.
But if performance is what your after, the step up ( and mind you it is a step up) is not going to be very noticable. The value an M3 gives vs. the price of a 996 or 997 far outweight the small increase in performance. If your a good driver, you'll pass these cars on track. An equal driver to yourself and you'll keep them in range with good straight line speed (one of the M3's strenths) but the 911's will have faster corning speed as the weight of the M3 comes into the equation.
I thought about going from an M3 to a 996 S or 997 S. But for the money vs. performance, it's not worth it. I went to a GT3 because I wanted a more dedicated and focused car sans electronics, heated this and that, etc. etc. etc. The GT3 is simply in another league from the S.
You didn't mention if your into tracking your car or not, but if you are, that's as honest as I can be.
08-13-2006, 01:47 AM
#17
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BTW Fast1,
After I put in about 2.7 degrees of negative camber, I got even treadware, whereas before with stock settings, I would chew up the outsides and the rest of the tire looked brand new.
After I put in about 2.7 degrees of negative camber, I got even treadware, whereas before with stock settings, I would chew up the outsides and the rest of the tire looked brand new.
08-13-2006, 01:52 AM
#18
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So sorry, forgot one thing.
DSC always off when on track. The car is substantially faster as the electronics kick in too early. If you track it and have DSC on, try it in the off position and you'll see for yourself.
DSC always off when on track. The car is substantially faster as the electronics kick in too early. If you track it and have DSC on, try it in the off position and you'll see for yourself.
08-13-2006, 02:33 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by M3Pete
So sorry, forgot one thing.
DSC always off when on track. The car is substantially faster as the electronics kick in too early. If you track it and have DSC on, try it in the off position and you'll see for yourself.
DSC always off when on track. The car is substantially faster as the electronics kick in too early. If you track it and have DSC on, try it in the off position and you'll see for yourself.
08-20-2006, 11:00 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
I currently have both. A 99 996 and a 02 M3 and I can agree with mostly 95% of all that has previously been said. The 996 does everything the M3 does only smoother and better. It just seems to do it effortlessly to me. The M3 makes me work and is like a diamond in the rough while the 996 makes me forget I am doing it actually often. That said I must admit I am trading my M3 AND my 996 in this week for a 05 997 which I got a sweet deal on. Compared to the 996 the 997 was just WAAY smoother. Small subtle differences and more refined and updated inside. My 1st ride in my 996 I remember thinking of the interior...this is a $70k car? LOL But you won't regret a 996 or 997 over an M3. I love my M but I can live without it...not my Carrera! 
Now talk to me again in 08-09 when the new V8 M3 arrives...story may change a lil.
Good luck
Now talk to me again in 08-09 when the new V8 M3 arrives...story may change a lil.Good luck
08-20-2006, 11:29 PM
#22
On the road the CS pulls harder in 4th than E46 does in 3rd. Handling is superior with better dynamics and less lean. Suspension compliance make driving on NY roads at least tolerable in the Porsche. Most important to me is that with revs down the M3 was easy prey from stoplight to stoplight, and launching with revs up was too difficult. Not missing the M here.
08-20-2006, 11:43 PM
#23
Three Wheelin'
I went for a ride in my buddy's 03 M3 with all the Dinan goodies except supercharger (thats next). He's reprogrammed the computer etc etc and added all kinds of expensive suspension goodies, sways, tower braces yadda yadda. The car is the fastest street legal car I've ever been in next to driving a GT3 and its cornering ability is simply incredible. I have absolutely no doubts that the car can hang with just about any normally aspirated Porsche in stock form. I think for the money that the M3 with some upgrades is hard to beat all around. For certain its less pricey than a new 997S. The car doesn't lack class in any way.
08-21-2006, 02:01 AM
#24
I drove 3 E46 M3 and about a dozen 996's before buying a 996. I recently test drove a 997S (search the 997 forum for my comments). The disappointment with the M3 is the amount of understeer and the extremely poor turn-in. You can easily tell it has a lot of weight to move around. It is even more disappointing since the E36 M3 was one of the most neutral/balanced cars around. There are some things that are similar between the cars: mainly the stock shifters are both a little vague and rubbery. The engine is the M3 is still quite wonderful with good torque and a long power band. Other than that, the only thing an M3 has over a 997S is interior space. Over the M3, even 997 3.6l is significantly faster, has greater grip, better handling (even more neutral even stock suspension to stock suspension) and has significantly better brakes. This is very noticeable at the track with equal drivers.
A 997S will be 100-150 lbs lighter than an E46 M3. It has a lot more torque (it has .6l more displacement) and puts out about 30 hp more at the wheels stock on a dyno than an M3 (also more than a Dinan non-supercharged car). The engines actually feel very similar, the 997S is just stronger all the time. The drag coeficient of a 997S is .29 versus the M3's .33-.34(with spoiler) and hence as speeds rise, the 997S feels even faster. It has 13" 4-piston directionally vented and cross-drilled Brembo brakes versus the M3's single piston binders. Once you get the binders hot, you will notice a huge difference. Strangely, even the new BMW 335i is getting better brakes than the M3 had.
Despite the interior comments, I actually like both the 996 and 997 interiors. I think the 997 dash is better, but the 996 has nicer door panels. I don't like the flat surfaces of the E46 as much and I did not like the M3 seats compared to even the standard Carrera seats. Is it worth the price difference? You have to drive it and decide that for yourself.
A 997S will be 100-150 lbs lighter than an E46 M3. It has a lot more torque (it has .6l more displacement) and puts out about 30 hp more at the wheels stock on a dyno than an M3 (also more than a Dinan non-supercharged car). The engines actually feel very similar, the 997S is just stronger all the time. The drag coeficient of a 997S is .29 versus the M3's .33-.34(with spoiler) and hence as speeds rise, the 997S feels even faster. It has 13" 4-piston directionally vented and cross-drilled Brembo brakes versus the M3's single piston binders. Once you get the binders hot, you will notice a huge difference. Strangely, even the new BMW 335i is getting better brakes than the M3 had.
Despite the interior comments, I actually like both the 996 and 997 interiors. I think the 997 dash is better, but the 996 has nicer door panels. I don't like the flat surfaces of the E46 as much and I did not like the M3 seats compared to even the standard Carrera seats. Is it worth the price difference? You have to drive it and decide that for yourself.
08-22-2006, 01:49 AM
#25
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Owned E46 and 997 S Convertibles - Here Are My Thoughts
I've had the fortune of owning an '01 E46 M3 Convertible manual, '04 E46 M3 Convertible SMG, and most recently (just sold last week) a 997 Carrera S Convertible w/Tiptronic. Here are my quick takes for regular street driving (I don't track):
1) DO NOT go from an M3 w/SMG to the 997 w/Tiptronic. You will be horribly disappointed. I actually bought my 997 in April and just sold it last week to "cut my losses" due to the transmission. I live in LA and manual just isn't an option for me for an everyday driver. I can't stress this point enough. For me to have bought an '05 997 S Convertible (pretty much my dream car minus the turbos that I currently can't afford) and sold it in only months speaks volumes. I've never bought and sold a car in less than 2 years. DO NOT buy the tiptronic if you have SMG! (just trying to save you from the fate that I just experienced first hand)
2) The differences between these 2 cars are actually pretty straightforward, given that they're very different. My comments refer to convertible versions and compares SMG to Tiptronic:
- Drive - More torque with 997 S, higher revs with M3. M3 needs to work harder (higher revs) and is less smooth. This can be a good or a bad thing, depending on how smooth you want your car to be. Suspension on the M3 is rougher than the 997 in Normal mode but not as rough as Sport mode.
- Convenience - M3 is an obvious winner here due to additional luggage/storage space. I don't think anyone buys a 997 for the convenience factor...
- Speed - There is no doubt that the 997 S is faster and feels faster than the M3, especially when pulling on the highway. That being said, I didn't like the fact that the 997 was so smooth. Probably had somewhat to do with the Tiptronic. But I personally preferred the feeling of involvement I had with the M3 and its revs. Again, might be due to tiptronic.
- Structure - Porsche's ridigity is MUCH better than the M3 in convertible form. 997 roof does not creak and is quality, while the M3 roof just sucks.
- Interior - Obviously a matter of opinion. 997 felt sportier and richer to me.
Bottom line - I highly recommend that you try the 997. I never felt quite as connected to the drive/car as my M3, probably mostly due to the SMG vs. tiptronic, although I still felt that the steering was much more precise in the M3. Could have something to do with light feeling in the front. I personally didn't feel that the 997 is worth the extra $$, although it's tough to compare because they truly are different cars.
For those of you who just can't understand my lack of overwhelming desire for the 997 S, I highly recommend you try a Tiptronic before you judge my opinion. I'm going to take another serious look at a 997 (or 998 at that point) once the DSG transmission finally comes out.
Hope this helps,
Jeremy
1) DO NOT go from an M3 w/SMG to the 997 w/Tiptronic. You will be horribly disappointed. I actually bought my 997 in April and just sold it last week to "cut my losses" due to the transmission. I live in LA and manual just isn't an option for me for an everyday driver. I can't stress this point enough. For me to have bought an '05 997 S Convertible (pretty much my dream car minus the turbos that I currently can't afford) and sold it in only months speaks volumes. I've never bought and sold a car in less than 2 years. DO NOT buy the tiptronic if you have SMG! (just trying to save you from the fate that I just experienced first hand)
2) The differences between these 2 cars are actually pretty straightforward, given that they're very different. My comments refer to convertible versions and compares SMG to Tiptronic:
- Drive - More torque with 997 S, higher revs with M3. M3 needs to work harder (higher revs) and is less smooth. This can be a good or a bad thing, depending on how smooth you want your car to be. Suspension on the M3 is rougher than the 997 in Normal mode but not as rough as Sport mode.
- Convenience - M3 is an obvious winner here due to additional luggage/storage space. I don't think anyone buys a 997 for the convenience factor...
- Speed - There is no doubt that the 997 S is faster and feels faster than the M3, especially when pulling on the highway. That being said, I didn't like the fact that the 997 was so smooth. Probably had somewhat to do with the Tiptronic. But I personally preferred the feeling of involvement I had with the M3 and its revs. Again, might be due to tiptronic.
- Structure - Porsche's ridigity is MUCH better than the M3 in convertible form. 997 roof does not creak and is quality, while the M3 roof just sucks.
- Interior - Obviously a matter of opinion. 997 felt sportier and richer to me.
Bottom line - I highly recommend that you try the 997. I never felt quite as connected to the drive/car as my M3, probably mostly due to the SMG vs. tiptronic, although I still felt that the steering was much more precise in the M3. Could have something to do with light feeling in the front. I personally didn't feel that the 997 is worth the extra $$, although it's tough to compare because they truly are different cars.
For those of you who just can't understand my lack of overwhelming desire for the 997 S, I highly recommend you try a Tiptronic before you judge my opinion. I'm going to take another serious look at a 997 (or 998 at that point) once the DSG transmission finally comes out.
Hope this helps,
Jeremy
08-22-2006, 08:23 AM
#26
Originally Posted by M3Pete
I agree with gravedgr 100%. Read his take from top to bottom as it's the absolute truth. The M3 is not that far behind the 996 or 997. These guys make it sound as if the only thing good about it are the back seat and trunk. They are underestimating the car, but I would expect that on this forum.
Look, you already have an e-46 M3. I don't know if your looking for a more prestigous marque and can afford it now or for the performance aspect. If your a poser then you won't be the first to go from a BMW to a Porsche for the cache aspect.
But if performance is what your after, the step up ( and mind you it is a step up) is not going to be very noticable. The value an M3 gives vs. the price of a 996 or 997 far outweight the small increase in performance. If your a good driver, you'll pass these cars on track. An equal driver to yourself and you'll keep them in range with good straight line speed (one of the M3's strenths) but the 911's will have faster corning speed as the weight of the M3 comes into the equation.
I thought about going from an M3 to a 996 S or 997 S. But for the money vs. performance, it's not worth it. I went to a GT3 because I wanted a more dedicated and focused car sans electronics, heated this and that, etc. etc. etc. The GT3 is simply in another league from the S.
You didn't mention if your into tracking your car or not, but if you are, that's as honest as I can be.
Look, you already have an e-46 M3. I don't know if your looking for a more prestigous marque and can afford it now or for the performance aspect. If your a poser then you won't be the first to go from a BMW to a Porsche for the cache aspect.
But if performance is what your after, the step up ( and mind you it is a step up) is not going to be very noticable. The value an M3 gives vs. the price of a 996 or 997 far outweight the small increase in performance. If your a good driver, you'll pass these cars on track. An equal driver to yourself and you'll keep them in range with good straight line speed (one of the M3's strenths) but the 911's will have faster corning speed as the weight of the M3 comes into the equation.
I thought about going from an M3 to a 996 S or 997 S. But for the money vs. performance, it's not worth it. I went to a GT3 because I wanted a more dedicated and focused car sans electronics, heated this and that, etc. etc. etc. The GT3 is simply in another league from the S.
You didn't mention if your into tracking your car or not, but if you are, that's as honest as I can be.
08-22-2006, 02:53 PM
#27
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I'm new here, contemplating the same thing. I have an 04' m3 now with some mods. i've been comparing 02'/03' 996tt's, 04'/05' 996gt3's and new 997s's since they are all around the same price...between $85k and $95k.
i'm kinda on the fence until i see the production version (not spy photos) of the new v8 m3 along with its performance specs. i'm also waiting to see if the 997 and 997s will be bumped in hp early in 07' as others here have speculated. as i said in another post, if the gt3 was bumped from 381hp to 415hp and the turbo from 415hp to 480hp it only seems natural that the others will follow - perhaps to 355hp for the 997 and 381hp for the 997s ultimately - with only a mild increase in base price.
for now though, i love my m3..still get dozen's of compliments a month on it.
i'm kinda on the fence until i see the production version (not spy photos) of the new v8 m3 along with its performance specs. i'm also waiting to see if the 997 and 997s will be bumped in hp early in 07' as others here have speculated. as i said in another post, if the gt3 was bumped from 381hp to 415hp and the turbo from 415hp to 480hp it only seems natural that the others will follow - perhaps to 355hp for the 997 and 381hp for the 997s ultimately - with only a mild increase in base price.
for now though, i love my m3..still get dozen's of compliments a month on it.
08-22-2006, 03:22 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
I'm going to do a rough writeup of my comparisons since my 997 is post break-in.
The one factor that I don't think is fairly addressed is that there is a huge price difference between the two cars and I don't believe the performance difference is sufficient justification, if that is the primary reason for ownership. WHen you compare typical configurations $40k is a lot of money and coming from a happy owner I must admit I had hoped for more performance for such a huge price difference. I love my car, I love the styling, the looks, etc. but the performance just isn't lightyears above the other car.
I'd argue the differences mentioned by others above are a little overstated. I'm driving both back to back almost daily and I'm a little amazed at the descriptions of performance differences. Unless you're comparing their performance on the track, I don't see it - on roads with limitations on how you can take turns I find the cars very, very close.
The one factor that I don't think is fairly addressed is that there is a huge price difference between the two cars and I don't believe the performance difference is sufficient justification, if that is the primary reason for ownership. WHen you compare typical configurations $40k is a lot of money and coming from a happy owner I must admit I had hoped for more performance for such a huge price difference. I love my car, I love the styling, the looks, etc. but the performance just isn't lightyears above the other car.
I'd argue the differences mentioned by others above are a little overstated. I'm driving both back to back almost daily and I'm a little amazed at the descriptions of performance differences. Unless you're comparing their performance on the track, I don't see it - on roads with limitations on how you can take turns I find the cars very, very close.
08-22-2006, 05:42 PM
#29
Originally Posted by yemenmocha
I'm going to do a rough writeup of my comparisons since my 997 is post break-in.
The one factor that I don't think is fairly addressed is that there is a huge price difference between the two cars and I don't believe the performance difference is sufficient justification, if that is the primary reason for ownership. WHen you compare typical configurations $40k is a lot of money and coming from a happy owner I must admit I had hoped for more performance for such a huge price difference. I love my car, I love the styling, the looks, etc. but the performance just isn't lightyears above the other car.
I'd argue the differences mentioned by others above are a little overstated. I'm driving both back to back almost daily and I'm a little amazed at the descriptions of performance differences. Unless you're comparing their performance on the track, I don't see it - on roads with limitations on how you can take turns I find the cars very, very close.
The one factor that I don't think is fairly addressed is that there is a huge price difference between the two cars and I don't believe the performance difference is sufficient justification, if that is the primary reason for ownership. WHen you compare typical configurations $40k is a lot of money and coming from a happy owner I must admit I had hoped for more performance for such a huge price difference. I love my car, I love the styling, the looks, etc. but the performance just isn't lightyears above the other car.
I'd argue the differences mentioned by others above are a little overstated. I'm driving both back to back almost daily and I'm a little amazed at the descriptions of performance differences. Unless you're comparing their performance on the track, I don't see it - on roads with limitations on how you can take turns I find the cars very, very close.
08-22-2006, 05:57 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
997S vs. M3 on track
Some video from last weekend's event at Pocono that illustrates the performance difference.
http://homepage.mac.com/c.gomez/iMovieTheater19.html
The Blue E46 M3 and MCoupe are friends of mine and very capable drivers. Both cars have aftermarket suspensions (coilovers, camber plates, etc.).
My 997S has front GT3 control arms to increase negative camber.
We are all running RComp tires.
By the end of the day, the 997S best lap was 1.6-2secs faster than both BMWs.
I had an E46 M3, and the 997S is much faster and a real Sportscar. The E46 M3 is impressive as a Sedan/Coupe.
http://homepage.mac.com/c.gomez/iMovieTheater19.html
The Blue E46 M3 and MCoupe are friends of mine and very capable drivers. Both cars have aftermarket suspensions (coilovers, camber plates, etc.).
My 997S has front GT3 control arms to increase negative camber.
We are all running RComp tires.
By the end of the day, the 997S best lap was 1.6-2secs faster than both BMWs.
I had an E46 M3, and the 997S is much faster and a real Sportscar. The E46 M3 is impressive as a Sedan/Coupe.